As I recall, the original entries for the dark elves and the drow either stated or implied (I don't have the sources anymore) that the drow were but one group of dark elves, those dedicated to the demoness Lolth. Likewise, I believe the original description held that some groups of dark elves might thus have different abilities. Accordingly, I have it that there are different populations of dark elves, each with a similar, common history, but differing beliefs and powers in the here and now. The drow are simply the most common and dangerous, especially in the southwestern Flanaess. The other major dark elven races I have are the dockalfar of the Corusk and Griff Underdark, and the huldre in the lands of the Old One. The huldre are highly magical and worship Grazzt and Iuz (one of the reasons Lolth is so interested in Iuz's doings), while the dockalfar are more sinister rogues and follow Beltar. A small tribe of Orcus worshipping dark elves exists under the Rift Canyon, as well. Any thoughts?
Well, Tiernan, mainly they use the same game stats, but their society runs a little differently. First they call themselves the Huldre, or "Hidden". They are not female dominated, but relatively equal (as far as C/E races go). Magic is the most important factor in their lives, and wizards and sorcerers are revered. Most of the huldre worship Grazzt, and many become Thralls of Grazzt (see the Book of Vile Darkness), while quite a few also worship Iuz. Cleric/wizards are fairly common, as are wizard/fighters and wizard/rogues (with sorcerer being as common as wizard on these combos). Huldre life revolves around teh search for more powerful magics, and especially intriguing new spells are admired. Like the drow, the huldre also have a complicated system of political infighting, directed at keeping each other off balance. Iuz sees them as his best kept secret, and uses their magic without revealing their existence. Any more?
Was there not a rumor that a family of Drow assisted Iuz with the destruction of castle Hart.
Or was that a clan of Derro?
Anyway, I have not been a fan of the thought of the drow having shared intrests with Iuz.
IMO Iuz hates all elven types.
There might even be a bitter rivalry between them.
I may have forgotten a connection from the Gord books however.
The Drow also may distaste the smell of most humanoids.
Besides Lolth, there is a possiabily of Drow aligned with the EEG,Grazzt, or the one who shall not be named.
I can see the connection that Drow may have with other Chaotic Evil Demon Princes and with Beltar the God of Caves, Pits, & Malice as well.
Orcus Drow seem unlikely now that he has been destroyed.
Is there a strong Cannon link to the undead for Drow, I don't know.
I think there would be a better connection between Demogorgon, Juiblex, or more likely Yeenogu. Gnolls, flinds,and ghouls oh my.
I don't see the drow looking toward the lawful evil powers for assistance either.
I would like to explore the idea of a Lawful Evil type of elf.
Sinister Elfs.-This elf type would enjoy the company LE cunning.
Thoughts?
I'd say Iuz would be more than happy to make use of elves devoted to him, even if they are of the drow(dark elf) persuasion. I think he'd like the perversion of using elves agaisnt elves.
And besides, a non- dark elf, "Keak" by name is a member of one of Iuz' upper eschalon groups- The Boneheart. Of course, Keak is a pshychopathic killer, and I think that Iuz likes that fact more than he would hate that Keak is an elf. Iuz also has a high ranking twisted and evil halfing in his service too.
I think the "twisted and evil" part outweighs whatever race a servant of Iuz might be.
As to other drow societies, there are many that worship things other than Lolth. Most worship Lolth, but not all. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I mentioned these dark elven communites in my Baphomet article:
Drahulad
With an artifact called the Moonblood Periapt, said to contain a portion of the blood that created the vampire god Kanchelsis, Orcus transformed a clan of wood-elves into vampiric spawn. Retreating from the hated sun, they conquered Drahulad, which was already a drow city of some antiquity, and forced them all to deny Graz'zt, their former patron, and bow to the Lord of Undead.
The members of Drahulad's noble class are now entirely vampires. Charmed and dominated lower-ranking drow feed the nobles with their blood on a regular basis. If they become vampires - as sometimes happens - they are fed on non-drow, for elven blood may only be tasted by nobles. The majority of Drahulad's population is alive, however, for the nobles desire a large healthy herd and do not wish to share Orcus' blessing. All worship Orcus, however, with regular sacrifices of non-elves and the use of zombie and skeletal labor. Powerful undead from outside the city occasionally find refuge here, becoming part of a powerful merchant class.
Drahulad lacks the prejudice against surface elves that many drow communities nurture, as the greatest of nobles - and Druhulad's Queen - are of sylvan elf extraction. Sometimes surface elves are kidnapped and forced to become part of the community - if they are unwilling to do so any other way, they may become food for Drahulad's leaders.
Drahulad, almost alone of all drow communities, did not forsake Orcus for Kiaransalee during Orcus' sojourn into true death. They continued honoring with sacrifices all through that interlude, and with his return they continue unchanged.
Drahulad is located a few hundred miles south of - and is substantially deeper than - Enhim Rila.
Enhim Rila
Deep in the Crystalmist Mountains near Sterich is a hidden city of dark elves. Unlike their cousins to the south, who mainly revere Lolth and Graz'zt, Enhim Rila is dominated by the cult of Baphomet.
Enhim Rila was founded by refugees of Drahulad, a drow city conquered by vampiric servitors of the demon prince Orcus. Rejecting both the Black Prince that had conquered them and the Prince of Shadows who had failed to protect them, they accepted the offers of the eager minions of Baphomet that seemed to anticipate their arrival in the mazelike corridors near the River of Restless Sleep in the Vale of Shrouds.
The resulting stronghold is even more labyrinthine and confusing than the limestone caves it was built in. It is closer to the surface than many drow settlements - the River of Restless Sleep is sometimes lit by the sun during part of its course - and the dark elves often venture topside on moonlit raids. There are no streets as such, only sequences of doors and often hidden entrances that the elves know as they're privileged to know, or as they discover or puzzle out for themselves. Often the primary prerequisite for advancing to greater social status is simply finding the way to a more prestigious area. The largest dwelling complex in their city - not that anyone living knows enough of its convoluted expanse to realize it - is the Abbey of Hope, where generations of drow girls have given themselves to demons, even glabrezu, nalfeshnee, and - it is rumored - a flameless balor. The city is apparently ruled by the inhabitants of the Bowge of Sorcerers, a school of magic and mazecraft, but, unknown to all lesser drow, the sorcerers rely heavily on the advice of the abbess of the Abbey of Nocturnal Suffering and her hand-picked nuns.
Primarily, though, the culture of Enhim Rila is dominated by males. Lord Zanthelem, a demon-touched drow with curving ivory horns so large as to prevent him from leaving the chambers in which he was born, is the most powerful conjurer in the city and the current ruler of the Bowge. On the other side of the social scale are the monsters - fomorians, verbeegs, minotaurs, hook horrors, and ogres who are used purely as cannon fodder in the dark elves' plays at dominating the region. Many of the minotaurs are descendents of human slaves - even former nobles of Sterich - taken back and forced to walk the Elder Maze that gives those who walk it the minotaur curse, which elves are immune to.
Of those taken by the dark elves of Enhim Rila, only one was released voluntarily. This was Pelnor Falconbrood, a baron of Sterich of the Earl's own blood. When the earldom was invaded by hordes of giants - at least in part working for the drow of Enhim Rila - Baron Falconbrood fled to the demesne of his Keoish relatives. Unbeknownst to them, he had already been taken by the drow and transformed mentally into a breeding stud. His relatives soon either died or fled their lands, refusing to admit anything was wrong. In new tunnels dug beneath the keep, the new baron began hiding his minotaur sons. Investigations from the crown have failed to turn up any peculiarities thus far, though one younger son is organizing teams of delvers to explore the caverns near Baron Falconbrood's old lands.
Interesting takes on dark elves here, very interesting. Thanks for the feedback.
Back to the original thread here - does anyone recall (or have the sources - MM2 or the original Descent into the Depths/Vault of the Drow - to look it up) whether the dark elves were indeed all drow, or the drow were just one race of dark elves? As I recall, after the Kinslayer wars the defeated evil elves were driven underground, and one group came to worship Lolth, and thus became the drow. If that's not so, OK - then all dark elves are drow. If I'm right, only Lolth-worshipping dark elves are truly drow. Help me out here.
BTW, I'm having great fun in my current campaign with dark elves. I'm running a Scarred Lands campaign, and while dark elves do exist, and they do have black skin and white hair, and they are an evil race, they are otherwise nothing like drow. Their name for themselves is Drendali (a reference to Drendari, goddess of shadows), they are lawful, their god is male, alive, but maimed and lives among them. Their powers are different, their culture is different, their relations to the outside world are different. Its an interesting take on the whole evil elf concept.
The "Drow" were elves that were lured away by lolth and driven into the underdark by the rest of the elves. Looking at the Drow's perdictiment, they needed lolth's help to survive and build a society in the hostile enviroment and its equally hostile inhabitants which no doubt helped build a tight bond between the majority of drow to lolth which continues to the present. Since the drow have established themselves however their faith and dependence on lolth has waned from time to time explaining the fear lolth priestesses seek to maintain.
Given the drow's lust for power, Eclavdras turned to EEG, Canon references to Grazzt and Orcus (before his fall), even one with the male drow seeking to better their social position through a cult to a male drow god? - presumably Vhaeraun or Keptolo.
The drow are hardly dumb though but look carefully at the risk/reward ratio of any offer being made and Eclavdras coup plots show, any uprising without massive support has to be decisive because no one wants an extended conflict within a vault because that would just make all the drow vulnerable to attack from their underdark neighbors.
Which brings up another issue, the drow given their "superiority ethos" has not helped them acquire underdark allies, difficult anyways given the harshness of the underdark enviroment, if a vault does turn against lolth it makes enemies of all the loyal vaults who were the only natural allies of the "rebel vault".
Given all these factors, it is not surprising that their has been few rebellions against the lolth priesthood.
And besides, a non- dark elf, "Keak" by name is a member of one of Iuz' upper eschalon groups- The Boneheart.
According to Iuz the Evil Pg 89 Keak is a grey elf who belongs to the Boneshadow not the Boneheart. Big difference.
Yes Iuz has a few isolated spies and uncover scouts who might be demi-human in nature.
Lord Ombi,Gleed, Lord Dorag,Griswald Hairhand,& SUnifarel Brightrobe to name a few.
Humanoid,undead, and demons are the bulk of Iuz's army.
Eclavdra the drow Ambassador in Dorakaa is the only refrence that I can find in Cannon surrounding the Drow an Iuz. This relationship under the blessing of Lolth allows Graz'zt to have communitions with Iuz. It also states that Eclavdra and Iuz despise each other. One condition where it is better to have your emeny close rather than from afar perhaps.
Yes Iuz may have limited dealings with the drow. The ends justifys the means but Iuz does this with distaste.
As for Drow worshiping Iuz I don't see it.
Quote:
Back to the original thread here - does anyone recall (or have the sources - MM2 or the original Descent into the Depths/Vault of the Drow - to look it up) whether the dark elves were indeed all drow, or the drow were just one race of dark elves?
The vault of the Drow Consists of 8 noble Families.
Each with their own agenda as they struggle for power and control.
My thoughts are that the Drow are a speific type of Dark Elf.
I am uncertian how they all ended up in the Valut and in Erelhei-Cinlu, but
I assume that thay all migrated at the same time. It seems that there is are no major cultural differences and they all worship Lolth.
Therefore I can't support all dark elf are drow and that Drow are specificly identifed as being from the Vault.
The "Black Elves," or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users.
From the original Deities & Demigods:
Quote:
The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best known example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth. Drow sacrifice both blood (of others) and riches to her.
"Dark elf" and "drow" are always - as far as I can find - treated as synonyms, though I don't see anything wrong with including dockalfar and huldre as additional subterranean elven races.
Thank you Rasgon and Starbreaker for the exact info. I guess I recalled it wrong. Well, that answers that. I've still worked it up IMC the other way, but that's OK. Again, thanks all.
And besides, a non- dark elf, "Keak" by name is a member of one of Iuz' upper eschalon groups- The Boneheart.
According to Iuz the Evil Pg 89 Keak is a grey elf who belongs to the Boneshadow not the Boneheart. Big difference.
Oops! Serves me righgt when not looking up a reference. I knew it was "something-shadow" or "shadow-something", but it had "shadow" in the title.
But anyways, the point is that Iuz doesn't hate elves just because they are elves, or any other race just for being what they are. If they don't pay homage to Iuz, he hates them. As most demi-humans do not pay homage to Iuz, and actively oppose him, Iuz generally hates them as a group. Any demi-humans that turn to his side he would be more than pleased to accomodate, and not hate them. I would imagine Iuz rather would accomodate them and favor them quite a bit due to their usefulness as spies outside of his realm.
As the Boneshadow contains the most relevant and powerful demi-humans in Iuz's service they have listed entries. There is without a doubt plenty of other demi-humans that serve Iuz or any one of his higher minions, but they are simply not relevant enough to list their stats or even their names in what would be consiedered canonical sources. I believe a few are listed in supplements and adventures however.
Such lesser demi-human servants make perfect foils for adventures outside the lands of Iuz though. Given that, demi-human servants of Iuz would still be very rare, but not unheard of. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Oh, and I bleieve that the reason the term "Dark Elf" began to become confused is due to its use to describe elves who had left the path of goodness in the world of Krynn- Raisltin's apprentiuce Dalamar being the most often described "dark elf" in any D&D related books.
And we all know that hardly anybody read the Dragonlance books...
But the Dragonlance books did give an accurate definition of the term "dark elf". Drow are "dark elves", but "dark elves" aren't neccesarily Drow.
Keak is a dark elf, as is Markessa.
Eclavdra is a dark elf of Drow heritage.
Even still, the terms "Drow" and "dark elf" are often used synonymously. It is as right or wrong to do so as you choose to make it. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I checked: the Monster Manual II used the words synonymously too.
But Cebrion's right that "dark elf" has, at least in Krynn, a broader meaning of "evil or outcast elf"and doesn't necessarily refer to those of ebon skin and silver hair. There may well be places on Oerth where the phrase "dark elf" has the broader meaning.
Of course, the word "drow" itself really just means "traitor" if you believe the Forgotten Realms material, so both words have a broader meaning that can be applied to more than just the dark-skinned race beneath the Hellfurnaces. The goddess Kiaransalee was a surface elf who lived thousands of years before the dark elves were corrupted - she was named drow, or traitor, by her husband, a mortal elven king.
So you could also take another route - that there are many races of dark-skinned elves and not all of them are treacherous or evil. Only those dark elves known as drow were banished from the presence of the others. I like that better, actually, as it doesn't equate skin tone with alignment.
So Keak and Markessa are drow, but not dark elves.
In my Greyhawk, I refer to all dark, subterrainean elves as drow, but not all worship Lolth, and not all are evil (though that's the way to bet). I tend to have most humanoid races in my campaign be much more variable than the book entries imply, so you will occasionally find tribes of orcs that aren't entirely evil, and groups of grey elves or dwarves that are not particularly tolerant of humans. _________________ WWCD?
I knew about the Krynn and Misbegotten Realms references, but I was lloking at the specific WoG references. IMC I'll still have the drow, the huldre and the dockalfar as races of dark elves, since that's what I've run for years.
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