In the "migration map" on page 6 of the 80' Gazetteer it shows the Oeridians "originating" just north of Lake Udrukankar in the Dry Steppes, but in Vecna Lives Tovag Baragu on the shores of Lake Udrukankar was the capital of the Baklunish Empire.
So what gives? Should we just assume that the "starting locations" are somewhat after the Twin Cataclysms when the Baklunish had been pushed north out of their heartlands, and the maybe the Oeridians were in the process of burning the joint down. If that's the case where had the Oeridians been before since they had been migrating east for quite a while before the Cataclysms?
I can come up with my own explanations, but is there anything canon explaining this, or does anyone have a good explanation they came up with?
Canon (The Adventure Begins) says the Oeridians are from Ull, but I think later canon - The Living Greyhawk Journal #3 entry for Johydee - says they came from further west before that, originating beyond the Baklunish lands. The Book of Artifacts said that Johydee was from a region called the Seven Kingdoms, which I assume is the Oeridian homeland.
The continent is called Oerik, which implies (though it doesn't necessitate, since other peoples have different names) that the Oeridians are widespread there. If you don't want to worry about the possible existence of East Asian-style cultures, Western Oerik might be entirely Oeridian, while the Flanaess was entirely Flan before the Migrations - and the Baklunish and Suel were stuck in between.
The (extremely non-canonical) Oerth Journal #1 timeline has the Oeridians as slaves of the Suel who were freed by St. Cuthbert and then migrated across the Sulhauts into the Baklunish lands and from there into the Flanaess.
Scottenkainen claims that the Oeridians come from Khemit, or Erypt, far to the south and west.
It's conceivable that the Oeridians ruled the Baklunish lands from the beginning, and the Baklunish invaded those lands and subjugated them after their great Hegira six thousand years ago - but that extreme length of time might be a bit much.
I don't have my books, but IIRC the rumors of a large inland sea, far to the west (from the Nyr Dyv entry) mention that the Oeridians originated there. Can someone dig up a quotation? _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I don't have my books, but IIRC the rumors of a large inland sea, far to the west (from the Nyr Dyv entry) mention that the Oeridians originated there. Can someone dig up a quotation?
Wow I had never heard this so I looked it up and there it is! In the 83 Guide: This body of water [Nyr Dyv] is the largest fresh water lake known to us, although legends and tales report a veritable sea far to the west, if such stories can be believed.
No mention of Oerids, but this is still mind blowing to me. Of course our more recent knowledge and possible acceptance of the Dragon Annual Map may have squashed that rumor. However having said that i'm not sure lake/river systems are shown on that map so in that case there would definitely be room for an inland sea if one wanted to pursue this idea.
I thought there was a second quotation that linked the Oeridians' migration to that far western homeland, but perhaps that's only the one quotation, and that I added the link between the Oeridians and the large inland sea?? _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I might be mistaken, but I think Gary Holian first promulgated the Far West origin of the Oerids.
Personally, I favour a far west origin for the Oerids - the Oerids who inhabited Ull were, IMO, an offshoot of the main Oerid population, which may have once roamed the steppes that stretch all the way from the Sufang Mountains (the huge mountain chain to the west of the Celestial Empire on the Dragon Annual 1 map) to the Crystalmists. In my head, I see the the Sufang rising at the expense of the Oerids, scattering them hither and anon.
However, the presence of the High and Low Khanates north of Sufang (and the use of these titles by the Brazen Horde - who were identified as Bakluni) presents one of a number of possibilities:
1: The lands north of Sufang are the original Bakluni homeland and they migrated east into the original Oerid homelands, compressing them steadily eastwards until they were corralled into Ull.
2: The lands north of Sufang were the original Oeridian homeland and they were scattered/migrated west into the Bakluni lands under the pressure of Sufang expansion. The Khanates might be the result of Baklunish invasions in the opposite direction. (This explanation somehow rings false for me).
3: Both Oerids and Bakluni originated north of the Sufang and were pushed east in successive waves - the Oerids first and then the Bakluni.
This last idea raises the possibility that the Bakluni and then Oerids might possibly share a common ancestor culture in the distant west (in the same way that Arabs and Jews are both Semitic peoples). Under pressure from the Sufhang, the Oeridians split off, moving east over the mountains (though some might still persist in the far west). The Bakluni followed sometime later (leaving behind a splinter population, which forms the Khanates, from which the Brazen Horde swept east as far as the Flanaess about 200-300 CY)) - perhaps overrunning the Oerid tribes and driving them eastwards as they settled and founded their empire.
Perhaps the Hegira of which the Bakluni speak is a flight from their original homelands in the west?
What if the gods that Johydee freed the Oeridians from referred to the Bakuni yoke. The OR might begin with the year that the Oerids broke free of the Bakluni yoke, forming their own confederation of tribes in Ull?
This would also serve to explain the Common tongue's fusion of Old Oeridian and Ancient Bakluni as a bridge language between sister tongues.
There's also the possibility that the nomads north of Suhfang aren't Baklunish at all, but more of a Suhfang-style people who interbred with the Baklunish on their way to become the Tiger and Wolf barbarians (who today have mixed Suhfang, Bakluni, and Flan blood). There's even a possibility that the people of Suhfang are Baklunish.
I'm enjoying this thread. Good ideas presented. In my Ull meanderings at CF I have sometimes hinted at ancient Oeridian origins but always intentionally left it open for great possibilities like found here.
Successive waves of migrations is totally compatible with real historical nation and language building. The Brazen Horde is still slightly misunderstood to me. From what I gather they were incited to immigrate by Zeif into the lands south of Zeif as a buffer zone against raiding Paynims. The Horde themselves were originally just western Paynim cousins living south of Komal (West bank Gulf of Ghayar) making them really Western Dry Steppe nomads if anything. They must've been quite eager to relocate due to Komal (who must be quite powerful having scared off the Brazen Horde and defeated Zeif's navy in the Battle Beneath the Waves) and the fact of living in the fringe Dry Steppes. The Plains of the Paynims, Ull and Ket obviously are more fertile lands, so not being able to move north into Komal nor back west over mountains into Suhfang they migrated east as had been done twice before them in the Oerids and the Ancient Baklunish Empire. The Bakluns that were displaced by the immigrant Horde ended up Tiger/Wolf nomads mixing mainly with Oerids in flight which as Woesinger speculates might not have been the first time and leads to the ease of their language's mixture. The Horde therefore is another in a long line of tribes displaced by the larger Suhfang I'd wager.
Looking at the Dragon Annual map its a stretch to connect the High/Low Khanates with the Baklunish given that unlike the Flanaess migrations they would have to traverse TWO huge mountain ranges to migrate. At any rate if one uses *shudder* Orcreich which is stuck firmly between the Khanates and the old lands of the Brazen Horde/ Komal then it could be surmised that orcs were also thrust northward by the Celestial Imperium resulting in a split of the long free ranging Khanates into two, the possibly Suhfang related Khanates and the purer Baklunish blooded Paynims.
I thought there was a second quotation that linked the Oeridians' migration to that far western homeland, but perhaps that's only the one quotation, and that I added the link between the Oeridians and the large inland sea??
There are also a couple of references in "Ivid the Undying" to the origins of the Oeridians:
[In the section on "The Millenium [sic] Empire"] "Finally, the Oeridians created their great empire because their great commanders, mages, and tribal leaders believed that this was their destiny. Driven from their homelands by a great cataclysm, they founded the great capital of Rauxes nearly 4,000 miles from their ancient homeland."
(I do not know which cataclysm is meant. The subsequent sentence, contrasting the situation of the Suloise, suggests that it is not either of the Twin Cataclysms. This is not one of my favourite bits of "Ivid", which I otherwise love: the sweeping racial stereotyping of Oeridians and Suloise here grates on me, and this stretch could have done with some rewriting; four uses of the word "great" in two sentences is over-kill in my book. But "de gustibus non est disputandum".)
[In the introduction to the Twin Cities] "The realities of power here center on two magical artifacts the Oeridians brought with them from their lands far to the west many centuries ago."
Yeah - the point about the two mountain ranges is a good one - I forgot about how big that second one is.
There's a few work arounds:
1: The Bakluni at one point or other occupied the lands that are now part of Sufang south of that second western range. The expansion of the Sufang sundered their lands and peoples, cutting the Khanates off and sending the ancestors of the Bakluni Padishahs fleeing over the mountains to the west and into the Oerid lands over 6 thousand years ago?
2: The Sufang actually are Bakluni (as Rasgon mentioned) or more startling - Oeridians!
3: An offshoot of the Bakluni invaded the Sufang lands, driving south of the second western range, and either migrated or were driven back north into the lands now marked as the Khanates.
4: That second range isn't that high or has many passes allowing passage of plains folk.
[In the section on "The Millenium [sic] Empire"] "Finally, the Oeridians created their great empire because their great commanders, mages, and tribal leaders believed that this was their destiny. Driven from their homelands by a great cataclysm, they founded the great capital of Rauxes nearly 4,000 miles from their ancient homeland."
It's only 2400 miles from Rauxes to Ull, which puts their "ancient homeland" perhaps in Orcreich. Perhaps the Oeridians were driven east by humanoid groups moving north and east from the Celestial Imperium to join the Baklunish call for mercenaries, or even as part of mercenary armies hired by the Suhfang against the Baklunish, Suloise, or both.
As A Guide to the World of Greyhawk said, "The Oerid migrations were similar in cause to those of the Suel, in that the Baklunish-Suloise Wars, and the hordes of Euroz and associated humanoid groups used as mercenaries by both sides, tended to pillage northward and eastward, driving the Oerids before them."
LGJ#3 said: "Before the Oeridians began their migrations into the Flanaess, their race was scattered throughout much of Western Oerik. In the timelost centuries before the Suel and Baklunish empires initiated their terrible conflict, the servants of evil deities held sway over the most prominent Oeridian nation. In time, the wise priestess Johydee tricked them into creating a magical mask, which she used to overthrow their hold on her people."
The Book of Artifacts said: "In a frontier region on the border of the Seven Kingdoms, a well-organized band of thieves took up residence to plunder the trade routes to the east. To prevent word from reaching the viscount, the thieves threatened the local villagers. Anyone found defying the guild was found dead or disappeared altogether. All seemed hopeless until Johydee, a high priestess, came to tend the spiritual needs of the village."
The extent of the Seven Kingdoms is unknown - perhaps Suhfang was indeed one of them. That would fit with the Oeridians being scattered about "much of western Oerik."
Excellent visual aides rasgon, this discussion is opening my eyes to alot. One funny observation is how 'small' the Suel Empire seems in comparison. They are boxed in quite nicely pre-all migrations. The only other unlabelled area on rasgon's map would be Zindia, yet another unique racial/cultural group i'm sure.
The path of the Oeridians makes sense using these maps' placement too. At the height of the Baklunish Empire it was adjacent to the Suel Empire so the only recourse for migrating Oerids would've been northeast and eventually corralled into Ull. I'm not sure of the extent of the Dramidj coast's ancient Baklunish settlements at the time but given this map ancient Oerids could've sailed over the Dramidj and came into Ull from above as well (quicker) as overland, then were shooed and segregated out of the way by Baklunish who were too busy with the Suloise. In fact using the proposed western oerik humanoid drive north into present day Orcreich, Oerids who may have dwelled there would logically -have to- flee overseas to escape. Any other way gives them too many alternate routes to migrate instead of into one clustered region like Ull. Whats more, to go from 'Seven Kingdoms' across a swathe of land equal in size to both the Baklunish and Suel empires and then end up crammed into Ull means not many Oerids made it anyways or were absorbed elsewhere.
I don't know that the pre-cataclysm Oeridian population was ever very large - they were scattered bands of nomadic horsemen, and their lifestyle and the barren steppeland of their home couldn't support a very dense population. They wandered over a vast area, but that area probably had other peoples, human and nonhuman, beside the Oerids, and the Oerids themselves might have gone weeks or months without seeing another Oeridian-speaking tribe. Perhaps it was their time in bondage to the "servants of the evil deities" that finally cemented them together as one people and inspired them, as orcs and goblin-folk became distressingly more common, to make the journey to a new homeland together.
Sea travel is possible, assuming Procan was smiling favorably at them, but I imagine a zigzag path through the northern Baklunish Mountains, down the coast of the Drawmij, up the coast again and finally settling in Ull, southeastern Zief, and Ket - but not for long, as they had a manifest destiny to fulfill.
Ah yes I misread, the Oeridians were on the edge of the Seven Kingdoms not scattered into Seven Kingdoms, which are likely Suhfang as you said. I got confused when the LGJ said they were scattered yet went on to mention the 'most prominent Oerid nation'. I tend to associate the word nation with settled peoples, although thats probably not necessary given North American native history.
And the zig-zag migration is most probable as well, although the water exit just jumped out at me from the maps posted here. Looking at the Dramidj's island chains as detailed in the LGG, I guess we can eliminate that theory one by one since the isles would be the first stops in an oversea migration:
Ataphads (Bf): "colonized over a millenium ago by criminal and depraved elements of the Baklunish Empire, though some families trace their lineage back to the wicked Ur-Flan."
Janasibs (B): "provides shelter for outlaws and pirates from the Baklunish lands."
Qayah Bureis (Bfo?): "It has been colonized by all the seafaring nations of the region over the years, but its culture is predominantly Baklunish."
The last chain is the only chance for Oeridian sea migration. All the seafaring nations in the area should be already be Baklunish, so to state its culture is predominantly Baklunish implies something else, either more Ur-Flan like in the Ataphads (apparently they had Dramidj aspirations) or an Oerid splinter that took to the central isles and got absorbed by the Baklunish post-cataclysm along with the Ataphad and Janasib colonization.
There are a few factors against an seaborne migration:
1: The Aerdi (and by association the other Oeridians) are mentioned in canon as being indifferent sailors.
2: This is kind of reflected in Procan's aspect as a tempestuous angry god ready to strike down those who venture into his realm unless he is properly propriated (at least that how I always saw him).
3: The Oerids of old are always characterised as nomads and horselords - which doesn't exactly fit with a seafaring escape route.
I'd favour a good old landward flight/migration over the moutnain passes
OK - so to consolidate:
We know that the Oeridian homeland was probably somewhere around the Orc lands in central Oerik (or at least the Oerids who ended up in the Flanaess considered this their homeland; there's nothing to say that the Oerids that ended up in Ull were all of the Oerids that once wandered the west, though given the involvement of Johydee, its likey that they comprised what was described as the most prominant Oerid nation [the Aerdi?]).
We also know that they are said to have been widespread in Western Oerik (this said from the perspective of the Flanaess).
Johydee is said to have lived on the frontiers of the Seven Kingdoms. This could be Sufang, though it's not clear if Johydee lived at the edge of one of seven Oeridian Kingdoms (presumably in this case the most prominent), or whether her Oerid people lived on the uncivilised side of the frontiers of a non-Oerid Seven Kingdoms.
If we take the Chinese parallel for Sufang, China was divided into a varying number of kingdoms before it was united by the first emperor. Perhaps Sufang followed a similar route (My pet theory is that the Seven Kingdoms were united by a psionic human emperor, whose progeny still rule a godless empire supported by a class of psionic mandarins).
OK - so let's assume that the Oerids dwelled in the current orclands as nomads - they could therefore have spread throughout the lands of the west, roaming the steppelands north of what is now Sufang and perhaps crossing the various mountain chains - into the Bakluni lands in the east and over the mighty Celestial Mountains in the west.
At some point or other, some or all of them were displaced east. This could have happened a number of ways.
1: They were driven east by the expansion of the Seven Kingdoms of the Sufang and/or the rise of the orcs in that area.
2: A population of them wandered east, finding employ with the Bakluni Padishahs as mercs. They were then granted the lands of Ull to settle (like the way the Romans settled the Goths south of the Danube).
3: A population of the were taken as a captive population (like the deportation of the Jews to Mesopotamia by the Babylonians) by the invading Bakluni. They were later freed and granted the lands of Ull.
However, given that there's no evidence of the Oerids using titles like Khan, we still have to explain why there's a pair of Khanates west of the Oerid homeland. There's two possibilities:
1: The Bakluni spread east, invading the Oerids and rolling on to the Khanates, only to lose the intervening lands to orcs (perhaps driven north out of Sufang?).
2: The Khanates are in fact the ancient Bakluni homeland, from whence they spread (or were driven) east (perhaps by the Sufang), driving the nomadic Oerids (or some of them) before them, until the Oerids were bottled up into Ull. If the Bakluni migration is the same as the Hegira, that would date this migration to around the start of the BH system or -2659 CY or over 3,000 years before present.
Of all these theories, I kind of favour the last. It seems to make most sense to me.
So - from the top.
The Bakluni originated in the Khanates, the Oerids in the orc lands, while to the south of them the Sufang arose, became civilised and founded Seven Kingdoms. The Oerids wandered over Central and Western Oerik, probbaly as horse based nomads.
At some point before the Seven Kingdoms were united by the First Sufang Emperor - Johydee freed the ancestors of the eastern Oerids from the yoke of evil gods.
The Bakluni at some point civilised to the point where they had a Padishah (or a kind of king of kings). As the Bakluni expanded, they may have forced the Oerids east. It's possible that, as the Bakluni and Sufang organised, they drove orcs and their kin out of their lands and into the lands of the Oerid nomads, to the point where the Oerids were pushed out. Some may have headed west into the Bakluni and Sufang lands, others into the east over the mountains.
War broke out between the Bakluni and the Sufang (who might have been united at this point), and the Sufang won, forcing the Bakluni padishah to flee the homeland in -2659 CY (the Hegira), heading east where his armies overran the Oerids. The Bakluni reformed their empire in the east, while corralling the eastern Oerids into the land of Ull.
Ah yes I misread, the Oeridians were on the edge of the Seven Kingdoms not scattered into Seven Kingdoms, which are likely Suhfang as you said.
I can see both interpretations. They could have seven major tribes scattered about a wide area of plains, or they could be one people among six other kingdoms. I actually prefer the former, I think.
We can also perhaps guess that the Oeridians weren't quite as nomadic as I suggested, since Ivid the Undying notes their lust for territory. Somewhere they got the idea that land can be owned and kingdoms can be carved from the wilderness - and they had a sophisticated magical tradition.
Quote:
I guess we can eliminate that theory one by one since the isles would be the first stops in an oversea migration:
They could have just stopped only briefly. As Ivid the Undying said, "No matter how rich and fertile any particular land might be, there was always an imperative to expand further, to head beyond, to conquer the vastness of the Flanaess and gain the longed-for glory of triumph and rulership."
2: This is kind of reflected in Procan's aspect as a tempestuous angry god ready to strike down those who venture into his realm unless he is properly propriated (at least that how I always saw him).
That's how I see him, too. For relatively friendly sea gods, there are Xerbo and Osprem.
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We know that the Oeridian homeland was probably somewhere around the Orc lands in central Oerik
Well, not necessarily - they weren't necessarily 4000 miles due west. We could as easily draw a line 4000 miles southwest and have them move through the Baklunish Mountains there.
They probably moved around the Suel Imperium, but we don't know this for sure.
I think the "Orcreich" postulation has some merit since it fits with the idea of them being pursued by evil humanoids, but they could have fled into the Baklunish lands long before the orcs themselves were bottled up in Orcreich.
Quote:
Johydee is said to have lived on the frontiers of the Seven Kingdoms.
Well, she's said to have been there, but not necessarily live there. She showed up one day, out-foxed some bandits, and then she disappeared. I think of this as a minor miracle that preceded her liberation of the entire nation.
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However, given that there's no evidence of the Oerids using titles like Khan, we still have to explain why there's a pair of Khanates west of the Oerid homeland.
The word "khanate" could simply be the Baklunish translation of a completely different word.
Here's an alternate version, from the top:
-2659 CY (1 BH) Guided by Azor'alq, the Baklunish flee the lands of the West (or Southwest, or even, say, the City of Brass in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or Dao enslavement in the Great Dismal Delve) from something they call the Darkness. They displace the Flan, pushing them toward the east. The Oeridians live in the plains west of the mountainous border of Baklunish territory (which they end up calling the Oeridian Mountains) - at the time, they have few interactions.
-644 CY (1 OR) The Oeridians are freed from domination by a foreign power by Johydee and become a nation for the first time. They begin developing their magical skill and planning to take a new homeland where they will never be enslaved again.
-484 CY (160 OR) With orcish and goblin attacks growing during the buildup of the Baklunish-Suloise Wars, the Oeridians decide the time is right and begin their long migration into the Eastern Lands, traveling across the mountain range into Baklunish territory.
-457 CY (187 OR) The Oeridians move out of Ull and Ket into the Flanaess.
This timeline allows for the Baklunish and Oeridians to have once been a single people living in a single western territory (perhaps the Khanates). Those who ended up in the Baklunish lands 3000 years ago became the Bakluni, while those who remained in the Western plains became the Oerids.
-2659 CY (1 BH) Guided by Azor'alq, the Baklunish flee the lands of the West (or Southwest, or even, say, the City of Brass in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or Dao enslavement in the Great Dismal Delve)
I actually like that idea.
-2959 CY (-299 BH) Due to a poorly worded wish, a tribe of people in the High Khanate are enslaved by the Great Khan of the dao. They spend the next three hundred years in the mines of the Great Dismal Delve in the Elemental Plane of Earth.
-2659 CY (1 BH) With wit, fortitude, friendly dragons, and a well-worded wish, the hero Azor'alq frees his people from the dao and leads them through a mountain portal into a new land. He guards his khan's family until they reach a place where they wish to settle. Finally, Azor'alq repays his debt to his benefactors by making a pilgrimage far to the north to a group of mysterious pinnacles he first beheld in a vision.
Last edited by rasgon on Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
1: The Aerdi (and by association the other Oeridians) are mentioned in canon as being indifferent sailors.
I'm not disagreeing too much, but indifferent compared to who? Thillonria? The Spindrifts? The Aerdi seem to me to have ample seagoing faculties (Sea Barons anyone?). The Baklunish are attributed in canon as being horsemen even moreso than Oerids but that hasn't stopped them from settling these island chains.
The rest of the consolodated prehistory looks great. rasgon's mention of the enslavement in the Great Dismal Delve reminds me of an Al Qadim article in Dragon 201, The City of Lofty Pillars (Iram) that was built by genie hands at the request of a vain noble then the price was not paid, so the city and all in it was taken to the GDD. I incorporated that idea in my Baklunish campaign so I of course like the rescue of Azor Alq.
1: The Aerdi (and by association the other Oeridians) are mentioned in canon as being indifferent sailors.
I'm not disagreeing too much, but indifferent compared to who? Thillonria? The Spindrifts? The Aerdi seem to me to have ample seagoing faculties (Sea Barons anyone?). The Baklunish are attributed in canon as being horsemen even moreso than Oerids but that hasn't stopped them from settling these island chains.
Indifferent compared to the average, one would assume. While it's fair to say the Sea Barons are fine sailors, they're just one group and they've developed their current level of technical expertise after 600 years or so of civilisation.
Consider also that despite its proximity to both the Sea Barons and the Lords of the Isles, Hepmonaland remains a dark and unexplored continent as far as most Aerdi are concerned. You'd have thought that if they were good sailors, they'd at least have charted the east coast more extensively by now. OK - there's the explorations of the Atirrs in the noontide of Aerdy, but they never really followed up on that thanks to the machinations of the Naelax (a bit like the great Chinese treasure fleets in that regard).
-2959 CY (-299 BH) Due to a poorly worded wish, a tribe of people in the High Khanate are enslaved by the Great Khan of the dao. They spend the next three hundred years in the mines of the Great Dismal Delve in the Elemental Plane of Earth.
-2659 CY (1 BH) With wit, fortitude, friendly dragons, and a well-worded wish, the hero Azor'alq frees his people from the dao and leads them through a mountain portal into a new land. He guards his khan's family until they reach a place where they wish to settle. Finally, Azor'alq repays his debt to his benefactors by making a pilgrimage far to the north to a group of mysterious pinnacles he first beheld in a vision.
Hmmm - is this imprisonment in the GDD mentioned in Canon somewhere?
I wouldn't have a problem with a small (or even fairly large) band of Bakluni suffering this kind of fate, but the Baklunish settlement of the lands between the Oeridian Mountains and the Barrier Peaks strikes me as being the more the result of mass migrations (like those in the real world between Central Asia and Europe) than an extraplanar exile. But that's just me. Now it's possible that the Padishah and his followers were imprisoned and then freed to go on, with the blessings of the gods to forge the Bakuni tribes of the Bakluni basin into an Empire. That'd work for me.
There's also an issue with where Johydee is/was and when. Having the Oerids and Johydee all on the margins of the Seven Kingdoms (aka Sufang) at 1 OR doesn't really jive with them then setting out for the Flanaess from Ull in 187 OR, unless their sojourn in Ull was very brief - which none of the sources seem to suggest (wouldn't they cite the lands west of the Oeridian mountains as their point of origin, rather than Ull?).
So I'd favour Johydee doing her thing in Ull, though she may also have appeared (as per the bandit tale - if it's true) farther west before then. I'd say she freed them possibly from Bakluni rule at or about 1 OR. The eastern Oerids in Ull then had a century and a half of independence from the Baklun yoke before seeking their destiny in the Flanaess.
It's possible tales got garbled in the migrations, with more recent stories about Johydee becoming mixed up with dimly-remembered legends of the original homeland far to the west?
So in summary - the eastern Oerids migrated/wandered/were driven east early - possibly before the Bakluni Hegira, settling Ull and perhaps the rest of the Bakluni basin (though their settlments farther west were overrun by the Bakuni flood). They were subsequently conquered or at least ruled for a time by the Padishahs. Thanks to Johydee, they were freed of Baklunish rule in 1 OR and then went east from Ull just under two centuries later.
I'm not entirely through with reading this thread, but let me post a question.
Could this earlier cataclysm have been the Demon War from the Chainmail setting? (which is set in Western Oerik after all) Note that I don't know anything about Chainmail except from what's inside the Chainmail Set 2 Blood & Darkness Booklet. That one has a lot of interesting info though about Stratis, Western Oerik and an ancient Gith empire. I transcribed the interesting parts here. Here's also a map of the Chainmail setting that I got from somewhere on the net. Compare it to the Dragon annual map. Apparently the chainmail setting is also called the "Sundered Empire" which could mean the old Oerik or the Seven Kingdoms or neither of both...
Is there more info about this setting in any of the other Chainmail products? Is it possible to integrate the setting with current Greyhawk?
Last edited by Thanael on Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
Wow - cool! I've never actually seen this map before.
I am happy to see my guesses about the geography of western Oerik were largely correct though (big desert in the south, tropical forest along the southern coasts of Sufang).
Nice Map, I just wish some map-maker out there would take on the challenge of producing a complete Oerik map. (hint)
Back to the Oeridians, we must remember though, that their migration wasn't under a single leader even in the times of Johydee, it seemed a fairly chaotic affair with tribes and groups splitting off the main groups to explore or settle lands as seemed to interest them.
Hmmm - is this imprisonment in the GDD mentioned in Canon somewhere?
If this discussion were limited to canon, I think it would be very short? I believe rip, er rasgon, is suggesting an alternative timeline, one he thought up and then ran with...Fairly interesting one, too...Pre-migration history (well non-Suloise, anyway) is one that is pretty mythical and one that will have to be invented by individual DMs...History, especially ancient history, has never been the strong point of GH ...
Kwint
Wow - cool! I've never actually seen this map before.
I am happy to see my guesses about the geography of western Oerik were largely correct though (big desert in the south, tropical forest along the southern coasts of Sufang).
P.
No big freshwater lake, though! That should probably be worked in someplace, unless it's really a mistaken reference to the Celestial Sea.
As for the rest:
Ravilla: Ruled by elves. Originally a collection of city-states tasked to defend abyssal gateways against a second Demon War (the first was 1500 years ago). After a gate in the city of Xanos opened five hundred years later, the city-states got serious and became an empire, which later became the Sundered Empire. Dragon #285.
Thalos: Human city-states. Primarily worship Stern Alia. Threatened by kobolds and allied with gnomes. They originally were scattered throughout Western Oerik, fled to the northwestern island (Thalos proper) from the expanding elven empire, but now hope, centuries later, to reconquer the continent. Dragon #287.
Ahmut's Legion: Human tribes called the Baklien (Bakluni?), led by an undead warrior named Ahmut. Worship Nerull the Reaper. They fight with the elves of Ravilla and gnolls of Naresh. Dragon #286
Free States: Human-ruled. Originally founded as a puppet government by the elves. Thalos "liberated" it during the Petty Wars a while back. The names and borders of the Free States change frequently, but include, currently: Ironfist (capital Garrison) a human state ruled by the ogre mage Gallo; Fivestar, ruled by a group of five ex-adventurers belonging to all the PC races of Western Oerik (everything but halflings), threatened by Draven's Horde and allied with Thalos; the Cult of the Return, a group of warrior monks dedicated to the rebirth of Stratos. Dragon #293.
Drazen's Horde: The Southlands, or the Blasted Desert, is teeming with orcs, hobgoblins, ogres, goblins, bugbears, and others. Draven is a hobgoblin warlord who won Stratis' axe after the god died. He consolidated the warring tribes of the Southlands under his leadership. He badly hurt the Free States in a war, but was temporarily driven back by the armies of Thalos. Dragon #292.
Naresh: Led by the demonic gnoll Jangir, this is an army of gnolls allied with demons of Yeenoghu. Not entirely sure which Dragon issue they're described in at the moment.
The People's State of Mordengard: Socialist dwarves. Dragon #291.
The main thing relevant to this discussion is that the "Baklien" of Ahmut's Legion might possibly be related somehow to the Baklunish, though I'd rather they were a group who fled the Darkness in the opposite direction than inhabitants of the Bakluni homeland, since the latter would require the Baklunish to have migrated across three massive mountain ranges to get to their current lands. This would support the Khanate hypothesis, with Baklunish migrating from north of the "Celestial Imperium" in two directions.
It's conceivable that the Demon Wars are related to the Oeridian migrations. It happened either 1500 years ago or a little over 1000 years ago (it's not entirely clear) - either way, the Oeridians could have begun marching across Oerik at that point, though if they came from Western Oerik it probably would have been easier for them to go west across the ocean (indifferent sailors, indeed). That contradicts the idea that their "ancient homeland" is only 4000 miles away, though (unless they're from 4000 miles to the east), and I'm under the impression that the Demon Wars affected the elves more than they did the humans (I could be wrong, mind you).
Hm. The biggest difference between the Chainmail map and the Dragon Annual #1 map is that the ice bridge between Oerik and Hyperboria ("Gigantea") has been largely swallowed up by the "Jothunheim" or "Jotnumheim" Sea and Sea of Hyperboria, the apparent mountain range turned into an archipelago. Of course, Dragon Annual #1 does call the bridge "semipermanent." The "Elven Lands" are now Ravilla (still ruled by elves), the Kingdoms of the Marches are now Mordenheim and the Disputed Region, and the Empire of Lynn is now Thalos, its allied Free States, and the Drazen's Horde which threatens them. There are supposed to be woods on the southern coast, too, and two great rivers in "Ishtarland." No mention of the Tharquish Empire.
Nice map! Good work. Western Oerik is huge compared to the Flanaess!
rasgon wrote:
the Kingdoms of the Marches are now Mordenheim
[...]
and "Ishtarland."
Mordengard. Mordenheim is the Dr. Frankenstein of Ravenloft. But then again his original homeworld is still unknown, so perhaps... Nah' it's ruled by Dwarves after all. ["Morden" means to murder in german btw]
Anything known about Ishtar? Isn't that a realworld goddess? similar to Istus perhaps?
Also isn't Jotunheim either the home of the Norse gods or one of the Giant abodes ?
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Ishtar is the Babylonian goddess of love and war. She's not really anything like Istus. The region (south of the Free States on the above map) was supposed to have a "Babylonian" type culture in the Dragon Annual #1.
Jotunheim is the home of the giants in Norse mythology, which is why the sea bordering "Gigantea" is called either the Jotnuheim Sea or the Jothunheim Sea (the map and key disagree).
At last night's chat we briefly discussed Doresain, the King of the Ghouls. Might the Orb of Shadows that gated Doresain to Oerth be connected to the Darkness from which the Baklunish fled?
While the Libris Mortis retcons Baur's original Dungeon adventure, the latter clearly states that Doresain steps between dimensions, reportedly from the Negative Material Plane (but it might be the Plane of Shadows) and onto Oerth.
Might Doresain's true ghouls be the servants of evil gods from whom Joyhdee liberated the Oeridians?
While I like connecting the ancient Baklunish history to elementals and genies, the ghouls, a la Al-Qadim's ghuls, might be another interesting monster to include, as might Green Ronin's divs--elder genies of fire.
Finally, I don't think I like having the Bakluni push the Flan anywhere and prefer to keep them separate until modern times. Also, which source calls them Flannae? Is this a Folio or boxed set term? I've always thought Flan named the race. Is Flannae the plural version? Is it an adjective?
While I like connecting the ancient Baklunish history to elementals and genies, the ghouls, a la Al-Qadim's ghuls, might be another interesting monster to include, as might Green Ronin's divs--elder genies of fire.
The great ghuls of Al-Qadim are undead jann, so they're part of the greater genie family. Divs are the common ancestors of all genies. See this thing I wrote.
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Finally, I don't think I like having the Bakluni push the Flan anywhere and prefer to keep them separate until modern times. Also, which source calls them Flannae? Is this a Folio or boxed set term? I've always thought Flan named the race. Is Flannae the plural version? Is it an adjective?
The Bakluni and Flan were neighbors, so they're bound to have interacted at least a little, though perhaps not as much as I claimed. The problem is, if the Bakluni aren't native to their present lands, who lived there before them? I don't really like having them live side by side in the same lands as with the Oeridians for three thousand years (because if they did, why are they still two seperate peoples?). I'm uncertain what the best solution is.
There are two names for each race:
Suel, Suloise
Flan, Flannae
Oerid, Oeridian
Bakluni, Baklunish
Rhennee, Rhenn-folk
Flannae appears in the old boxed set, and also appears in later materials (particularly as Ur-Flannae).
Last edited by rasgon on Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hmmm - is this imprisonment in the GDD mentioned in Canon somewhere?
Definitely not. I was just randomly speculating, and decided to elaborate on one particular speculation.
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the Baklunish settlement of the lands between the Oeridian Mountains and the Barrier Peaks strikes me as being the more the result of mass migrations (like those in the real world between Central Asia and Europe) than an extraplanar exile.
Probably. The Living Greyhawk Journal #3 certainly implies they migrated directly from the west, across at least one chain of mountains. I had to stretch things somewhat to get them to fit with my cross-planar exodus. I do like tying them in with the genies, though.
The entry for Azor'alq in the LGJ#3 actually fits with your Khanate origin for them very well, though they might have also come from those lands I labeled Oeridian.
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unless their sojourn in Ull was very brief - which none of the sources seem to suggest (wouldn't they cite the lands west of the Oeridian mountains as their point of origin, rather than Ull?).
I'd rather their time in Ull was fairly brief, actually, though there's certainly some evidence of at least linguistic mixing between Oerids and Bakluni.
Reading Gygax's words literally, the Oeridians didn't start migrating anywhere until the Suel-Baklunish wars began. With Sargent's "4000 miles" comment, it sounds like they started migrating at that point from the plains to the west of the Baklunish/Oeridian mountains.
I think the Ull origin introduced by Roger E. Moore is something of a mistake, actually, a misinterpretation of the migrations map. The migrations map, I believe, shows them migrating through Ull, rather than from it. But it's open to interpretation.
Oeridians are still present in Ull to this day in the Yorodhi, those stubborn folk who wouldn't migrate away prior to the Twin Cataclysms nor during the struggles between the Uli and the Brazen Horde. As such they should be the most pure of Oeridians in Eastern Oerik. Whats most interesting is they had villages in the Ull region (LGG) before the Uli tribes came in and occupied their land and driving the free Yorodhi into the foothills. If not for the pre-existing settlements (most largely destroyed in fighting against the occupiers) then Ull would not be the semi-nomadic land it is today.
So these facts alone show that the Oerids stayed in Ull for a measurable time to at least get to village/town size dwellings before pressures became so great that most Oerids moved on to the east and in later centuries, refugee tribes northward past Ekbir. In canon Ulakand was built by the Uli themselves from the Oerid example, and in my Ull writings I have attributed the trade town of Kester as a place with 'layers' of history. The Uli built over Oerids, the Oerids perhaps building over Baklunish and so forth.
The LGJ#3 seems to place Johydee in (mid)Western Oerik, at any rate, and Ivid the Undying seems adamant that the Oeridians had their scheme for world conquest (so to speak) planned out from the beginning.
We could have them leave earlier (or even at the same time I said) and pause in Ull and Ket for a few decades (or even longer) because the presence of Vecna's empire discourages them from entering the Flanaess.
The LGJ#3 seems to place Johydee in (mid)Western Oerik, at any rate, and Ivid the Undying seems adamant that the Oeridians had their scheme for world conquest (so to speak) planned out from the beginning.
We could have them leave earlier (or even at the same time I said) and pause in Ull and Ket for a few decades (or even longer) because the presence of Vecna's empire discourages them from entering the Flanaess.
Good ol Vecna, that works for me. Side question regarding the colorful map posted. I've always wondered, where does East Oerik start and West Oerik begin. It does seem as you've stated, there is a mid-Western Oerik. This land mass is huge.
The "official" viewpoint is that Stern Alia (a throw-away goddess whose church was mentioned as a political force in Medegia WAY back in the pregenerated characters for Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan) is the mother of Hextor and Heironeous. She's an Oeridian demigod of Oeridian Culture, Law, and Motherhood, roughly analogous to the way the Virgin Mary was worshipped in the Medieval period by certain European sects and cults. She's LN, with many of her Flanaess priests favoring the Lawful Evil alignment (which helped them out a lot in Medegia).
Her worship as a divine being was largely limited to the See of Medegia, which was all but destroyed during the Greyhawk Wars. It's unlikely that much of her political apparatus exists to this day. Her domains, per Living Greyhawk Journal #3, are Knowledge, Law, and Protection. Her favored weapon is a Heavy Mace.
Thusfar, Hextor and Heironeous's fathers (who would be different people) have not been identified. I sort of favor them not pegging them to specific Oerth deities. Perhaps they were mortals? Perhaps no mortals know who these mysterious figures were?
When Chris Pramas was developing the backstory of Chainmail, he essentially incorporated these ideas into that setting, naming Alia the "Shield Mother," and making her a patron of the human kingdom of Thalos, which is infused with a great deal of Oeridian blood from ancient trans-oceanic voyages. The Alia worshipped in Chainmail is LN with most clerics tending toward lawful good (I believe), which sets up an interesting dichotomy with the old Medegian branch of her worship.
There is an assertion in a footnote of "The Adventure Begins" that claims Stern Alia and Allitur are the same person. It's worthy of note that the authors of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer chose to completely ignore this assertion on the grounds that, frankly, the above scenario seemed more interesting to us and seemed more workable in a place like Medegia. So, as far as "official" canon goes, Allitur and Alia are not the same entity.
As A Guide to the World of Greyhawk said, "The Oerid migrations were similar in cause to those of the Suel, in that the Baklunish-Suloise Wars, and the hordes of Euroz and associated humanoid groups used as mercenaries by both sides, tended to pillage northward and eastward, driving the Oerids before them."
That's the other quotation I was thinking of, thanks rasgon! It sounds like I linked the Nyr Dyv large inland sea with the fact that the Oeridians were driven before the humanoids during the migrations, thereby implying (in my mind at least) that the inland sea was their homelands. Looks like there may not be any direct connection there in canon, although the Ivid quotations that Prochytes (thanks also!) found may have helped my percolation along those lines.
Regardless, the Guide quotation suggests to me that the areas of focus of the B-S wars may have been even further to the west, perhaps, and that the Oeridians were driven from their homes either by the warring B-S nations, by the humanoids on the move as mercenaries, or by somesuch other fallout from the pre-TC conflicts.
If a DM was to merge these ideas with the notion that the Oeridians were seeking their "City on a Hill"/"Promised Land" (to mix my American and Hebrew metaphors), perhaps the Oeridian nations were already on the march, away from their inland sea homeland, en route to their future homeland when they (literally) ran into the B-S wars/humanoid tribes, and that they had to fight their way across that strife-laden landscape before being able to settle in the Flanmi basin. (Perhaps some tribes who tried to circumvent the war-torn B-S lands became the Aqua-Oeridians of Aquaria, who certainly must be better than indifferent sailors....).
Something else to think about: perhaps Oerik is called such because the Oeridians were the dominant cultuer of the Flaneaess; the other natives of the lands west of the B-S empires may not know that word at all ;) _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Something else to think about: perhaps Oerik is called such because the Oeridians were the dominant cultuer of the Flaneaess; the other natives of the lands west of the B-S empires may not know that word at all ;)
Good point, the Baklunish and Suloise might have their own terms for local landmasses, which includes Oerth as well. The 83 Guide was clearly written from the point of view of the Aerdians as they are the dominant culture from the Cataclysms onward, but instead I think it is the Oeridians that maybe took their name from Oerth and Oerik. If one assumes all cultures recognize the goddess B[Oer]y as the personification of the world, then it seems natural that the 'known world' would be named in a fashion from her and for a race who has aspirations to be conquerors of said known world it seems fitting they would name themselves based on Oerth-Oerik too.
Back to the Oeridians, we must remember though, that their migration wasn't under a single leader even in the times of Johydee, it seemed a fairly chaotic affair with tribes and groups splitting off the main groups to explore or settle lands as seemed to interest them.
That's right. I very much doubt the Oeridians that dwelt in Ull before their migrations into the Flanaess were all of the Oerids in Oerik. I'd count them as an eastern branch of a wider Oeridian disapora across Central and Western Oerik.
Does anyone who's read Chainmail know if there's mention of Oeridians (or any other human ethnic group) in those western kingdoms, btw?
Does anyone who's read Chainmail know if there's mention of Oeridians (or any other human ethnic group) in those western kingdoms, btw?
They don't use the word "Oeridian," no. The only human ethnic groups are the Baklien and whoever the people of Thalos were. Erik Mona seems to be saying Western Oerik was colonized by Oeridians at some point faring across the Solnor.
Ugh - how did I miss all that second page of posts? D'oh. :)
Another great map, Rasgon! Excellent graphics skills.
Anyway - much food for thought indeed.
So the people in Thalos worship Stern Alia, but seem to have got there across the Solnor (though doesn't that contradict the bit above where it says the Thalosi were driven to the isle of Thalos from the rest of the continent by the olve)?
I have some issues with that and some things to say in favour of it.
1: How old is Thalos supposed to be? The Oerids in the Flanaess didn't reach the Solnor Coast until about -200 CY. Assuming that a bunch of them immediately leapt from their horses, built some boats and paddled across the vast ocean to Thalos, the realm wouldn't have had any Oeridian influence in that direction before that date.
2: See above for the apparent contradiction in the point of origin of the people of Thalos (across the Solnor or from Western Oerik).
3: A possible work-around is that the main populace of Thalos are Oerids, who migrated west from the central Oerid/Bakluni/Baklien lands long, long ago (perhaps before the rise of Sufang and the age of Johydee). At some point, they bothered the Olve (as humans are wont to do) and got driven west onto Thalos.
Then about 600-800 years ago, when things are looking their worst for the people of Thalos, a few ragged ships of Aerdi religious fanatics are shipwrecked on the western shore. They proclaim the land of Thalos to be the holy land promoised to them by Johydee. Among them are many worshippers of Stern Alia (since the ships came from Medegia, where the Kingdom of Aerdy is rising), who go forth to lead the armies of Thalos (the cult of SA merging with exisiting Thalosi myths about Stratis, who was much revered by the western Oerids) against the Olve. Alternatively Stern Alia and Stratis were always big with the western Oerids and the arrival of some SA firebrands from Medegia was just a profound coincidence (or divine machination) which led to the resurgance of Thalos. These Aerdi might also have brought some Ur Flannae slaves with them, some of whom may have escaped and brought their belief in Nerull to the Baklien tribes farther west (hence avoiding having to explain how a Flannae god got all the way from the Flanaess overland).
4: Given that the Aerdi histories make no mention of successful voyages across the Solnor, we must assume that any ships that set out from Aerdy and made it to Thalos never made it back. As far as the Aerdi were concerned they were lost at sea and thus forgotton.
5: Why would the Aerdi set off across the Solnor if they were mainly horselords? Because Johydee told them to seek their destiny in the east. Most Aerdi thought this meant the lands on the Hither Shore of the Solnor, but a group of religious fanatics might have look further - across the sea to the Thither Shore. So they built the ships and set off, never to return (even if they got to the far side with their ships intact, given they thought they'd landed on a promised land, they might have burned their boats and set off with the kind of firm conviction that extreme faith brings).
So...let's recap:
1: Way back in the distant mists of time, the Oerids and the Bakluni may have been either A: one people or B neighbouring nomadic peoples occupying the steppes and mountains north of what is now Sufang/the Celestial Imperium. The Oerids occupied the eastern steppes and the Bakluni the western.
The inland sea mentioned in ancient myths may be either be the Celestial Sea to the south or the inlet of the Dramidj Ocean to the north (which is largely landlocked and may have been so in that age).
2: The Oerids, either off their own bat or due to pressures from Euroz hordes/demons/the Sufang or the Bakuni split into to two branches.
The first migrated east over the mountains into the lands south of the Dramidj, where they spread out over the steppes and plains. Note this is still way before Johydee or the Baklunish Hegira.
The other group migrated west passing through the Baklunish lands and over the Celestial Mountains.
There may have been a mythalogical element to this diaspora. Let's assume that Stern Alia bore three sons by various fathers (see the other thread for a discussion on this): Stratis, Hextor and Heironeous. The three brothers were great warriors, but differed in their approach to war according to their aligments and ethos. Each had their own group of followers among the original Oerid tribes. Perhaps there's a legend where, following a dispute between the brothers, the tribes that followed Stratis departed into the west, leaving those following Heironeous and Hextor in the homelands and the east. This might explain why the Oerids of the Flanaess have never heard of Stratis and why Hextor and Heironeous seem to be relatively unknown in Thalos.
Whatever the reason, given the difference in cultures and the apparent ignorance of one for the other, we can assume that the split between the Eastern Oerids (inc. the Aerdi) and the Western Oerids (inc the Thalosi) happened in the dim and distant past.
3: The same pressures that caused the early migrations of the Oeridians may also have driven a migration of the original Bakluni from their homelands in what is called the High and Low Khanates. Some of them may have passed over the Celestial Mountains into Western Oerik, becoming the Baklien. Most, however, passed east, overrunning the Oerid homelands and driving the Oeridians south of the Drawmij farther east until they were hemmed up against the Barrier Peaks.
The cause of this upheaval may have been the unification of the Seven Sufang Kingdoms into the Celestial Empire. This may have driven orcs north out of Sufang into the Bakluni and Oerid homelands, causing the displacement of both peoples.
This Bakluni migration might be called the Hegira (and so would date to about 1 BH). Rasgon's exile of a tribe of Bakuni to the GDD might have occured about this time also, with Azor Alq leading them to freedom through the axis mundi of Tovag Baragu (hence the site's importance to the Bakluni). This tribe goes on to unite the disparate Baklunish tribes of the eastern Dramidj littoral into the Baklunish Empire (at the expense of the eastern Oerids, who are subjugated).
4: Around 1 OR, Johydee, who may have been known in the Oerid homeland, frees the Eastern Oerids in Ull from the yoke of the Bakluni (who may at this time have been ruled by a dynasty of cruel and evil padishahs, worshiping fell gods, fiends or evil janni).
BTW, I agree with Mortellan here that Kester was an Oerid foundation - the name is a dead give away. It may be very ancient, dating back to the first Oeridan settlement of the sub-Dramidj lands. Like Troy, it may have been built and ruined many times in its history and may be one of the most ancient cities in Eastern Oerik.
About this time, the proto Common tongue develops as a pidgin of the Oeridian's native tongue and the tongue of their Baklunish overlords.
5: In the west, the Western Oerids (the Sons of Stratis) are driven west to the last refuge of Thalos by the Olve of Ravilla.
6: Around 180 OR, as the war between the Suel and the Bakluni hots up, Johydee appears to the Hetmen of the eastern Oerids and tells them to seek their destiny in the land where the sun has it's birth. And so begin the Great Migrations and the March of the Aerdi.
7: The Aerdi finally reach the shores of the Solnor and claim the lands there for their own, founding the cities of Rel Astra, Mentrey and Pontylver among others (this would explain why Medegia was ruled by a cleric - as the cradle of Aerdy, it was the heart of the holy land promised by Johydee).
While most of the Aerdi are content to claim the rich Flamni lands, the most devout are convinced that the promised land still lies beyond the Solnor. They build ships (perhaps with the aid of olves, or captured Suel or Flannae) and depart over the sea from Medegia, never to return. Among their number are many followers of Stern Alia.
8: The small band of Aerdi (the AquaAerdi? Perhaps Aqua means Seeker or Ship in Old Oeridian?), much thinned in numbers by the privations of their great voyage make landfall/are shipwrecked on the shores of Thalos. They burn their vessels in thanksgiving for the safe passage. The fires attract the native Thalosi, who are astounded to find people very much like them, speaking a reasonably similar language and worshiping Stern Alia. This is taken as a great sign by Thalosi and AquaAerdi alike. Among the AquaAerdi is a charismatic follower of Stern Alia who devotes himself to freeing the Thalosi from the oppression of the Olve of Ravilla and forging on the Thither Shore the land promised by Johydee.
The upshot of this is the revival of the fortunes of Thalos and creation of their empire. The other result is the spread of the cult of Nerull in the west - spread by escaped Ur Flannae slaves of the AquaAerdi, who flee Thalos and find refuge among the oppressed Baklien on the fringes of the Celestial Mountains.
Does that fit with the timelines for Chainmail? It's possible that the voyage of the AquaAerdi might have happened as late as the time of Atirr Aedorich, which seems to have been a golden age of Aerdi sea power. It seems unlikely that they wouldn't have attempted to send ships east over the sea at this time - though whether they made it is another question.
Another thing to consider is that when the Sea Barons sent their expedition west across the Solnor - it's very likely (given the winds and currents) that they fetched up on the shores of Thalos. Now that would have been an interesting encounter!
So - the Sea Barons will now be aware that there's a powerful kingdom of Oerids across the Solnor. I wonder how that would affect their future policies and strategies. Equally, the Thalosi have reestablished contact with the Oerids of the Flanaess - how will that affect the balance of power in Western Oerik.
Further - we now know where the olven ships from the Spindrifts have been going to. It's likely that they have contact with the Olve of Ravilla. One wonders what they'll make of contacts between the two long sundered branches of the Oeridian people...?
Hm. The biggest difference between the Chainmail map and the Dragon Annual #1 map is that the ice bridge between Oerik and Hyperboria ("Gigantea") has been largely swallowed up by the "Jothunheim" or "Jotnumheim" Sea and Sea of Hyperboria, the apparent mountain range turned into an archipelago. Of course, Dragon Annual #1 does call the bridge "semipermanent." The "Elven Lands" are now Ravilla (still ruled by elves), the Kingdoms of the Marches are now Mordenheim and the Disputed Region, and the Empire of Lynn is now Thalos, its allied Free States, and the Drazen's Horde which threatens them. There are supposed to be woods on the southern coast, too, and two great rivers in "Ishtarland." No mention of the Tharquish Empire.
Perhaps the DA1 map is old and the Chainmail map is current. The landbridge might have been thrown down in some upheaval, natural or artificial. Or perhaps by semi permanent, they mean that the waters between the mountain isles freeze over forming an ice bridge (though as IIRC, it's a bit far south to do that naturally, latitude wise - so this might be a supernatural phenomenon)?
Alternatively, the DA 1 map might have been wrong, like the way that early European maps showed South America linking up to Antarctica.
Setting the DA1 map in the past would neatly explain differences between it and the Chainmail map (apart from setting aside the more stoopid names from DA1). The ancient Empire of Lynn may have fallen in the dim and distant past (leaving lots of nice crunchy ruins scattered across the lands, no doubt), perhaps undone in the first demon war?
As for the Southlands and beyond, we can assume that the lands south of the great desert are unexplored by the nations of north-west Oerik. Equally, if the map is based on Thalosi knowledge, they may have only sketchy knowledge of the lands across the Celestial Mountains (where Sufang/the Celestial Empire still stands). However, you would expect them to know what lies south of the Free States. It might still be possible to shove in better named versions of the states eluded to in DA1 (such as an Egyptian flavoured land on the southern shores of the Celestial Sea) and/or some of the states mentioned by Erik Mona in his waaay old posting about the west (plenty of space in southern Oerik still left).
4: Given that the Aerdi histories make no mention of successful voyages across the Solnor, we must assume that any ships that set out from Aerdy and made it to Thalos never made it back. As far as the Aerdi were concerned they were lost at sea and thus forgotton.
Good review so far, it's been a great topic even though I personally feel the Chainmail setting was WotC misuse of Greyhawk. At least its something to start work with that could lead to permanence.
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So are the Thalos Oeridians related to the Aquaria Oeridians, then? Just where is Thalos??
Not knowing anything about Aquarians, maybe they and Thalos are one and the same? Thalos is marked on the last map Rasgon posted, one of the island spurs on the west coast. On the DA1 map it isn't marked, it would be part of the Empire of Lynn. Speaking of Lynn, RJK in his Dungeon series about Maure Castle (under the watchful eye of Mona btw) has inserted a tidbit about the Empire of Lynn. What bearing that will have I'm not sure yet. The exact reference I'll look up sometime. And another thing having looked at the DA1 map.
On a side track, Western Oerik troubles me, what I've always known as East Oerik is now much bigger than before, there is now a Central Oerik too? Oerth is suppose to have 4 continents, would someone remind me what they are? I assumed Celestial Imperium Oerik and the Chainmail setting land mass were two continents divided at the massive mountain range between them. The others would be Hyperboria and Polaria and the unnamed mass? Seems weak to have two polar continents out of the four of Oerth. Or is Hepmonaland a mini-continent?
1. Hyperboria (also known as Telchuria), the north polar continent.
2. Oerik
3. Hepmonaland
4. The little continent off to the side:
The latter continent is refered to Terra Anakeria Incognita (or possibly just Anakeri) as per the DA map...I know Hepmonaland has always been considered a continent, but given the DA map, I would have thought that Polaria would have been one of the four continents...
Kwint
I should restate my observations in that the map I've refered to seems to be an interpretation of the DA map as I can't find the DA map on my hard drive, not sure where it came from but it has a grid and cute pictures of renaissance ships...
Kwint
Robert Kuntz's follow up on Dungeon #112's Maure Castle: #124's Chamber of Antiquities has an interesting tidbit on the Empire of Lynn.
"Rarely allies of the Maure family contracted out space in the Chamber of Antiquities to store their own potent magic..<snip>..the legendary land of Lynn, somewhere across the eastern ocean and many thousands of miles away. A fabled land to many, it is rumored that Lord Robilar, a master of dragons in his own right, traveled there and consorted with the rulers of the land, at which time they granted him an honorary status in their order due to his intimate knowledge of dragons..<snip>..sacred order of Dragonmasters of Lynn..<snip>..Dragonpriest of Lynn..<snip>..Dragonmasters begin training from birth, and are weaned from the strongest fighters and highest nobility of Lynn."
It goes on but that's the meat. So we have two versions of Western Oerik at our disposal. The defunct yet compatible Chainmail setting which could be the present day version of Dragon Annual's map and the Kuntz-Mona published account which has contact with the Flanaess from post-cataclysm Maures to present day Lord Robilar. Given that Mona has said he will continue publishing bits of Maure Castle each year and the foundation is laid, I wouldn't be surprised if more Lynn lore saw print. With that said I am not too crazy about the DM's of Lynn, the DA1 map already has 'Dragons Island' in the Celestial Sea and the 'Sea of the Dragon King' near Nippon [blech], so why make the Empire of Lynn into -another- dragon themed region?
"Rarely allies of the Maure family contracted out space in the Chamber of Antiquities to store their own potent magic..<snip>..the legendary land of Lynn, somewhere across the eastern ocean and many thousands of miles away. A fabled land to many, it is rumored that Lord Robilar, a master of dragons in his own right, traveled there and consorted with the rulers of the land, at which time they granted him an honorary status in their order due to his intimate knowledge of dragons..<snip>..sacred order of Dragonmasters of Lynn..<snip>..Dragonpriest of Lynn..<snip>..Dragonmasters begin training from birth, and are weaned from the strongest fighters and highest nobility of Lynn."
In-ter-esting...
So Lynn might still exist in the west. This doesn't have to be mutually exclusive of Chainmail - if the heartlands of Lynn are in the southern desert and the Chainmail lands were distant provinces and satrapys (as showin in the DA 1 map), perhaps Lynn has collapsed into its core territories in the same way that that The Great Kingdom receded into its Aerdy heartlands? So the Core heartlands of Lynn would lie in the deserts south of the hobgoblin and humanoids hordes.
Another dragon themed land. Yeah - but it just means a little more imagination to make it unqiue from the other ones. I kind of like the idea of a desert empire with an eccentric dragon riding nobility. Of course, if the empire regressed, you'd need some powerful enemy to give an empire backed by dragons a bloody nose. Sounds like Olve work to me (always like the idea of Olves vs dragons...).
Kwint: The map you're talking about isn't the DA1 map, but a fan created map based on it. It shows Anakeris as Terra Incognita Anakeri and western Oerik As Aquaria. I've found it on the web by accident before (in the Codex of GH site I think), but like Brigadoon, everytime I try to find it again, I can't.
In another thread - I mentioned some likely climatic conditions for the different continents.
The southern polar continent looks fairly small on the maps I've seen really just a kind of skull cap of land around the pole. It's likely to be all ice sheets, with pack ice in the channel between it and southern Anakeris.
Anakeris is likely to have an extreme range of climates - from mid-latitude desert in the north to antarctic tundra in the south.
The north Polar continent (at least in the DA1 map) is pretty large and reaches down into fairly temperate latitudes at the point of that disappearing land bridge with western Oerik. It's possible that there's some taiga forest and tundra on the southernmost coasts of the landmass - north of where we're positioning the ancestral lands of the Baklun and Oerids (High/Low Khanates and Orchreich in the DA 1 map).
Hepmonaland and Oerik we know about.
Thalos and the Aquarians: Well - I'd have just made the Thalosi a tribe of Oerids that ended up going the opposite direction from the Aerdi and co, reaching western Oerik instead of east.
However, Erik M's little tidbit suggests that the Thalosi had contacts with or influences from the Aerdi from across the Solnor.
Now - I don't hold with a mass migration of Aerdi across the Solnor as per the classic Frank Menzer Aquaria (wouldn't someone in Aerdy have noticed and wouldn't that imply that the Aerdi have such shipbuilding tech that they should rule the world by now? And besides - a dynasty of kings called John is stoopid IMO :D).
So as a fix, I posited that the AquaAerdi were a small group of religiously inspired "pilgrims" that voyaged across the Solnor Mayflower-style and fetched up on the shores of Thalos, where one of their number (a follower of Stern Alia from Medegia) helped lead the Thalosi fightback against the Olve of Ravilla. So in that sense, Thalos and Aquaria (which may be an myth spoken of in the ports of Aerdy) are one and the same.
Robert Kuntz's follow up on Dungeon #112's Maure Castle: #124's Chamber of Antiquities has an interesting tidbit on the Empire of Lynn.
The Empire of Lynn is also mentioned in the Oerth Journal #7 as part of the biography of Robilar that Rob Kuntz wrote.
"When questioned by the other members of the Circle about Robilar's trip to the east, Otto pointed to a map that Heward made for Mordenkainen and indicated that he believes that Robilar was headed to the Empire of Lynn, on the western shores of the continent of Oerik. It seems that Robilar had "acquired" a powerful relic called the Orb of Clerics (evil) and was taking it to a Temple of Zuggtmoy located there, for what purpose is unknown."
"When questioned by the other members of the Circle about Robilar's trip to the east, Otto pointed to a map that Heward made for Mordenkainen and indicated that he believes that Robilar was headed to the Empire of Lynn, on the western shores of the continent of Oerik. It seems that Robilar had "acquired" a powerful relic called the Orb of Clerics (evil) and was taking it to a Temple of Zuggtmoy located there, for what purpose is unknown."
Hmmm - so perhaps this is where old Robilar got his penchent for wyrmslaying.
Interesting that there's mention of Zuggtmoy in Lynn. I wonder if the temple is hidden or whether the Mistress of Fungi is revered there?
Is this the same land that Robilar travelled too by falling down a long shaft somewhere in Castle Greyhawk? Because I remember that land being China-like. (Where's that whole story from again?)
Thanael that wouldn't surprise me with RJK. From eyeballing it on the map with gridlines, if Robilar were to fall through the Oerth around GHC, he -would- end up in Western Lynn.
Is this the same land that Robilar travelled too by falling down a long shaft somewhere in Castle Greyhawk? Because I remember that land being China-like. (Where's that whole story from again?)
The story turns up in the article on Robilar in Oerth Journal #7 which has already been mentioned. Robilar went down a magical slide on the lowest level of Castle Greyhawk and did indeed end up in a China-like land.
Thanael that wouldn't surprise me with RJK. From eyeballing it on the map with gridlines, if Robilar were to fall through the Oerth around GHC, he -would- end up in Western Lynn.
The grid-map isn't entirely accurate, though. The grids indicate Oerth is about 18,000 miles in diameter at the equator:
(Each "4" represents 4000 miles)
While Oerth should actually be something like 25,000 miles. So there's a lot of ocean the map doesn't acount for.
Ah cool, then a vertical shaft would definitely deposit ol' Robilar into an ocean. Luckily for him he fell down a slide that I'm sure had many twists and turns. Otherwise, I just wanted to see another customized map from ya rasgon ;)
So Lynn is perhaps the China-like land which Robilar reached by way of a hole in Castle Greyhawk.
Does this mean that the Dragonmaster, Dragonpriest references are only titles as in the Black Dragon Empire from chinese history? Or are there real Dragons in the society who are worshipped (or even used as mounts) as in Old Times in the Flanaess?
The DA1 map lists the Dragons Islands (which iirc probably corellate with the Council of Wyrms setting) to the east. Isn't the Celestial Imperium the china-like land from the DA1 map? What does the DA1 article say about the Empire of Lynn?
So Lynn is perhaps the China-like land which Robilar reached by way of a hole in Castle Greyhawk.
Does this mean that the Dragonmaster, Dragonpriest references are only titles as in the Black Dragon Empire from chinese history? Or are there real Dragons in the society who are worshipped (or even used as mounts) as in Old Times in the Flanaess?
The DA1 map lists the Dragons Islands (which iirc probably corellate with the Council of Wyrms setting) to the east. Isn't the Celestial Imperium the china-like land from the DA1 map? What does the DA1 article say about the Empire of Lynn?
I dug out my DA1 issue and man it's been a while since I read the map's text. Here are some relevant parts:
Empire of Lynn: A sea of burning sands fill most of Oerik's western end. The fabled city of Lynn, perhaps settled by seafarers from the Flanaess, has grown rich from coastal trade and the desert's mineral wealth. (I'm not sure if there is an analogous culture to give Lynn, which may be a good thing.)
Celestial Imperium: A vast nation peopled with a hard working peasantry ruled by a complex bureaucracy. (see above)
Dragons Island: Tales from the Celestial Imperium speak of a land ruled by a dragon prince. If such a place exists, it probably lies here. (yeah does sound like a candidate for Council of Wyrms)
I would put the Io's Blood Chain from Council of Wyrms in "Fireland," personally. Given its location, the implication is that the dragon prince south of the Celestial Imperium is an oriental-style Lung dragon.
Empire of Lynn: A sea of burning sands fill most of Oerik's western end. The fabled city of Lynn, perhaps settled by seafarers from the Flanaess, has grown rich from coastal trade and the desert's mineral wealth. (I'm not sure if there is an analogous culture to give Lynn, which may be a good thing.)
Numidian/Abbassynian-Phonecian/Cathaginians on dragons instead of elephants! :)
Seriously though - so Lynn is on the sea and given it might have been settled from the Flanaess (don't think so - there's got to be SOME native people in western Oerik), it's probably on the South-Western coast of the continent somewhere - perhaps on a reasonably fertile littoral squeezed between the sea and the great desert?
If you want a parallel/base template for Lynn - what about Shibam, the so-called Manhatten of Yemen (see links below), crossed with classical Alexandria or Carthage (given its "fabled" reputation and the fact it's a seaport)?
Throw some magic/elementals into the mix and you have an ancient city of tall baked-clay/elemental built spires of the nobles (with wyrms roosting atop them?) looking out over irrigated fields to the shimmering desert on one side and the vast broad harbour forested with the masts of ships from all the seafaring nations of Western Oerik (and perhaps even Anakeris) on the other.
Given its location, Lynn might be the gateway to Anakeris and a link between the lands around the Celestial Sea and points east (Zahind, "Nippon"/Kalaraj) and the Chainmail lands (Thalos, Ravilla etc). Hence it's vast wealth and importance. Once the capital of a vast empire that covered most of Western Oerik, it is still a magnificent city, ruling a huge stretch of south western Oerik, though it's emperor is now merely a figurehead and pawn in the machinations of Lynn's powerful noble houses.
mortellan wrote:
Celestial Imperium: A vast nation peopled with a hard working peasantry ruled by a complex bureaucracy. (see above)
The Celestial Imperium has always sounded like it was based on China. The Chinese Empire was in fact referred to as the Celestial Empire. There's also the complex bureaucracy and the mention that it's vast. I've posted my ideas on it before, but we also have to remember that where it's located on the map means that its heartlands are tropical rainforests - so its cities would have more of a flavour of Angkor in Cambodia or imperial Siam/Burma than chilly Imperial Peking.
(As an aside about Robilar - perhaps he did fall through the Oerth/a gate and end up in the Celestial Imperium. He might have travelled from there to Lynn or heard of Lynn and returned there on another jaunt?)
Dragons Island: Tales from the Celestial Imperium speak of a land ruled by a dragon prince. If such a place exists, it probably lies here. (yeah does sound like a candidate for Council of Wyrms)[/quote]
Perhaps this is a better place to base my idea for Kalaraj (potted pitch: an island nation ruled by a "dragon emperor" (is he a human claiming to be a dragon or a dragon in human form - who knows?), served by a fanatically loyal caste of samurai-sorcerors). We could then make "Nippon" more like Sri Lanka perhaps? Unless "Nippon" is ruled by an exiled scion of the Dragons Island (though with Lynn, that makes a lot of dragons in the west...)?
Lynn doesn't have to be another dragon-based land just because the elite warriors of the nobility ride dragons. Robilar was adventuring ina setting where dragons weren't that rare, and they weren't the mega-beasts they are now. Robilar had 3, Mordenkainen has 2, Tenser had 1 before he turned good. Iggwilv bred a dragon steed for Drelnza. A few elite warriors on dragons does not a dragon-based land make.
In Gary's campaign, the setting was basically Earth with a few twists. Robilar didn't end up in a China-like land, he ended up in China. Robilar did find an orb and deliver it to a temple of Zuggtmoy, but he took it across the Atlantic Ocean and the temple was located in France. There are many ways that you could work this into the published setting. Robilar did have to get back to the Flanaess from whereever you decide the magic slide deposited him. That does provide an obvious explaination for his knowledge of Lynn. In actual play, Robilar traveled west from China, through the Middle East (which is where he got his flying carpet) and Europe on his way back to Greyhawk.
Scott
Okay then, so that means the DA1 map is a pangea like mass, I'm starting to see more of the analogies beyond the obvious ones like Erypt, Zindia and Nippon. Anyhoo back to the discussion:
Here's another neighbor/s that may factor into the Lynn discussion.
Tarquis Dominion: An ancient protectorate of the Tharquish Empire.
Tharquish Empire: An island nation of seafarers who have ambitions that extend to the neighboring continents. (Hmm would this Spain?)
Naval based conquerors who have ambitions on neighboring continents. Well there is Anakeris right across the Gulf and the next nearest would be Hepmonaland then! Woesinger, wouldn't that be an interesting addition to your CY 645 article? A conquistador-ish move in the opposite direction of all these Oerid migrants that starts in Tuov and Olman lands and then works its way northward until butting heads with the Scarlet Brotherhood.
We could then make "Nippon" more like Sri Lanka perhaps? Unless "Nippon" is ruled by an exiled scion of the Dragons Island (though with Lynn, that makes a lot of dragons in the west...)?
That would make more sense. I've always thought of "Nippon" as Japan if Japan was influenced by India instead of China - Indian-based language, Indian-based religion and philosophy all written over the existing animistic faith.
Except there's another culture that's influencing "Nippon" - the Olmans, who are perhaps the Korea to "Nippon's" Japan. So you could have a "samurai" culture that's as influenced by Aztec-style warriors as Indian-style Kshatriyas.
There are also the Suel, of course, but that was a long time ago: I see them more as the Indo-Iranians to "Zindia's" native "Adivasis."
I was thinking of using this as the basis for a kind of "Nippon"/Kalaraj monk/samurai fusion warrior style, used by the servants of the Dragon king. But if we have the dragon king farther west (unless dragon king is a title like Caesar that originated in ancient Lynn and then spread elsewhere with migrating populations?), we can still have this as the martial art on "Nippon".
Another thought was to make "Nippon" either monotheistic or devoted to magic or mind over matter (an influence from the Celestial Empire). This would set them at odds with the pantheistic and religious Zahindi to the north. Or if you want to follow the reference to Sri Lanka, "Nippon"/Kalaraj could be devoted to the demons of the Zahindi pantheon (just as Lanka was the home of the demon king in the Ramayana)? Or at least powers that the Zahindi consider demons...I saw "Nippon" and the states of Zahind being very much in conflict.
The Suel would have been an ancient aggressor of the Zahindi (esp near the end of the Imperium). It's possible that the Suel invaded or even occupied parts of Zahind before the fall of the Imperium. There might still be some Suel ruins in Zahind.
There's got to be some interaction with the Olman, but this comes down to the point of origin of the Olman. If they started in Hepmonaland and drifted west, then they'd have come into contact and perhaps conflict with Zahind and the ethnic boundry lines would have been drawn west of Xamaclan. What influence the Olman had on Zahind and "Nippon" and vice versa is an interesting one to ponder.
Equally interesting is contacts around the cape to the west to the Celestial Imperium and "Erypt"...
Which brings us onto the Tharquish Empire. The reference to continents is interesting and suggests they have contacts with Anakeris and Hepmonaland (along the southern arm of the great Solnor gyre). Perhaps these guys are more like ocean-going Phonecians than the Lynn. Its possible that they were a traditional advesary (the existance of a protectorate on the mainland suggests a less than peaceful stance with Lynn) that took advantage of (or participated in) Lynn's collapse to rise and dominate the south-western seas, controlling trade routes that stretch from the Touv city states in southern Hepmonaland to Anakeris and perhaps even as far east as the Celestial Imperium and even "Nippon"/Zahind...which means they could turn up any time in the Flanaess, from one of two directions.
The Tharquish would probably try to colonise/ settle north and eastern Anakeris first (they may alreayd have done so), but it interesting to think they might have designs on Hepmonaland. Perhaps they might try the Portugese tactic of capturning key ports and settlements and not bother too much about dominating the interior...?
Another thing is that if we start to integrate the DA1 map with the Sundered Empire, we see that the lands marked as Lynn are now the Free States and Drazen's Horde. If we assume that Lynn extended far to the south and that that's where it's core lands were, combined with the fact that Lynn appears to be on the sea, then we can place the city somewhere on the Gulf of Ishtar. Maybe south of "Ishtarland"? The Tharquish and their protectorate fit neatly to the south of the Free States. Whether "Ishtarland" and the Red kingdom still exist is a matter of speculation.
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