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    Canonfire :: View topic - Edition Conversion
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    Edition Conversion
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:10 am  
    Edition Conversion

    The Gran March project is a cooperative effort among many different contributors from Canonfire. The purpose of this project is to create the first campaign setting other than the City of Greyhawk; one that would also serve as a playable introduction to the World of Greyhawk. As it stands the organic birth of the WOGH means that a newbie would often have to find and read dozens of volumes in order to begin understanding the scope and complexity of hte world.

    As this progresses, it is primarily an editionless work. However, of necessity, we need to do some gap bridging between editions in regards to certain conventions. For example, how would you convert the adept class backwards? What would you do with sorcerers? How do you want to handle bards?

    As these are more than game mechanics, but persons who take up roles in the world it seems that it must be addressed. All assistance is greatly appreciated.


    Last edited by Anced_Math on Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
    Posts: 164
    From: England

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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:01 am  

    Let me first state that I am a 1st - 2nd Edition player and DM with way too many years experience in both. I think there are no problems back-converting 3rd Ed to 2nd Ed if you use the Skills & Powers with moderation where needed. Converting 3rd Ed to 1st Ed is really even simpler as there are only half a dozen or so classes, true you do loose some of the "fancy" bits but the underlying core role of the class is not changed.

    My problem in back-converting is not in the mechanics, but in understanding what the 3rd Ed class is to then start working on it.

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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:24 am  
    Hey

    Hey there, I was a AD&D (never got to 2nd ed) for many years. But it has been a while, and I wanted someone with more recent expriance to help make this as palatable as possible to as many editions as possible.

    So, to your question, what are the classes mentioned? Well an adept is a lower power spellcaster designed as an NPC class. They use a limited spell list of both arcane and divine spells.

    A Sorcerer is an arcane caster, but one who can cast spontaneously. They cast from a small list of spells they know, but can cast what they need till their spell slots run out.

    For example, if a spell caster has three 1st level spell slots (at 3rd level for example) and knows magic missle and shield, the caster can cast three magic missles or three shields, or a combination. Their limitation is the number of spells per day they have and the fact that they do not have the versatility of a wizard, who can know any spell in his spell book.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:07 am  

    A 3rd edition bard would be a 1st edition bard of equivalent level. The way I understand it, 1st edition bards advanced as fighters for five levels or so, as thieves for few levels, and then as bards under druidic tutelage.

    Therefore, a bard 5 in 3rd edition would become a fighter 5 in 1st edition. A bard 10 in 3rd edition would become a fighter 5/thief 4/bard 1 in 1st edition.

    An adept is a non-adventuring cleric, the equivalent of 1st edition shamans or cloistered priests.

    A sorcerer is a wizard-type that doesn't use a spellbook. They convert to a variety of things in 1st edition: Rhennee wisewomen, derro savants, witchdoctors, or wizards with psionic ability.

    Go to http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm for more on each core class.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:09 am  

    The Silent Ones of Keoland would become magic-users with psionic ability.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 18, 2006
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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:48 pm  

    I have played all editions, playing 1st edition the most and 2nd edition the least. Having said that I think you guys should just pick an edition and go with it. Otherwise you are leaving yourself a lot of work for very little gain.

    My vote would be 3rd edition for one simple reason, if this is being developed for new players, the vast majority will be attracted to the edition which has readily avaliable new products.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 23, 2002
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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:17 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    A 3rd edition bard would be a 1st edition bard of equivalent level. The way I understand it, 1st edition bards advanced as fighters for five levels or so, as thieves for few levels, and then as bards under druidic tutelage.

    Therefore, a bard 5 in 3rd edition would become a fighter 5 in 1st edition. A bard 10 in 3rd edition would become a fighter 5/thief 4/bard 1 in 1st edition.

    rasgon, the problem with this is that a 3rd edition bard has bardic abilities from 1st level up. If we follow a strict 1E bard conversion, we lose that bardic flavour.

    Now, there will be occasions when that won't matter - but then again, there will be occasions when it does. If the aim is to produce a resource that works well for all editions, perhaps we could look at providing descriptions of character roles rather than full character class details. Either that, or else produce variant characters to be slotted into whatever edition the user wants to run. Now that sounds like a lot of work.

    Well, just my 2cp

    Boddynock
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:24 pm  

    Boddynock wrote:
    rasgon, the problem with this is that a 3rd edition bard has bardic abilities from 1st level up. If we follow a strict 1E bard conversion, we lose that bardic flavour.


    You'll get a lot of flavor out of the idea that he or she is affiliated with a bardic college and plays a musical instrument. That'll still say "bard" to most people.

    I guess you can take it on a case-by-case basis. If it's essential that a low-level NPC has the power to counter harpy song, for example, maybe the NPC is half harpy.

    Or you could recommend using the 2nd edition bard class in that 1st edition campaign. There might have been other bard-like NPC classes in early issues of Dragon.

    Really, I don't think the specific class abilities matter much in 90% of cases. The guy has a lute, therefore he's a bard.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:11 pm  

    You can simulate various bardic abilities with magic items, too.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:21 am  
    Editions

    Quote:
    Having said that I think you guys should just pick an edition and go with it. Otherwise you are leaving yourself a lot of work for very little gain.


    Actually, we are using third ed., for any stats, though we have had volunteers to do the conversions for us. And we are not trying to create a great deal of work for ourselves. That said, what we are trying to do is understand what a 2nd ed person would like to see about a character to make the whole work cohesive. We are not going to do a stat conversion for every character/npc/person of note. We do want the Baron's Minstrel in the City of Shiboleth to have sufficient description to be useful.

    For example, as we design the network of herbalists that live in every town and village of the Gran March we want it to be a useful fiction. We dont want to discuss in the text how every healer is an "adept," has a familiar, and can cast both divine and arcane spells.

    There is a simple goal here. We dont want a DM new to GH to have to rip the whole thing out and start over. That is going to drive many a newbie away, and from that perspective it is absolutely worth the effort.

    Thanks for all the input so far. Bards are still a tough one.... I think we will be very careful in the discussion of their magical abilities.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
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    From: Germany

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    Thu Jan 26, 2006 5:16 am  

    Well 3e straight bards are really not easily convertible to 1E. The best options are the 2E bard or one of the optional 1E bard classes from dragon.

    The 2E and 3E Minstrel-bards are very different in flavour from the 1E Druidical Bard. A 1E Bard would be a follower of the Old Lore. The Fochlucan Lyricist PrC (for Druid/Bards) actually comes closest, but a 3E Ftr/Rog/Brd or Rog/Drd/Bard would do too. There is really a need for an Old Lore Bard PrC in 3E canon.

    I wouldn't worry too much about backwards-convertability though. As long as you don't include too many of the greater 3E atrocities/oddities (like say a Half dragon halfling ninja/barbarian/paladin) it should work well. As long as you stay somewhat close to the 1E/2E race/class restrictions and Greyhawk flavour you should be ok. (Even 2E had a prominent dwarven druid).

    I am very much a 2E gamer gone 3E. What I liked most about accessories like the City of Greyhawk Box or many of the Al Qadim stuff is that they include a short stats for almost eyery one of the NPCs. Just race,class,level, alignment and outstanding abilty scores. Perhaps a note about an important item possessed. Even if you do those in pure 3E mechanics it is better than no info.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2003
    Posts: 138
    From: Midwood in Geoff

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    Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:00 am  

    The simpler your design is kept, the easier it will be for an individual to do some of the grunt work. Give a class, a level, and anything special about the character - then let whoever is DMing (being as it's part of their job anyway) fill in the details. That way you have a non edition-specific setting. If we could just get everyone to play first or second edition again, everything would be alright... Wink
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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    Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:15 pm  

    IMO, the best thing you could do for those of us old farts who do not want to enter the new age of 3rd ed is to include a chapter on conversion, explaining how it is done, where you have to wing it, and explaining such oddities of 3rd ed as why everyone seems to have flat feet.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:25 pm  
    Wolf

    Wolf, that seems the simplest and easiest answer overall, thanks.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:59 am  

    I started out as a 1e player, and played 1e from 1980 or so, up to the time 2e came out. I played 2e until 3e came out. I have played the 3.5e since it has been out. I like certain things about each system, and generally think that there has been improvement all along the way, barring some oddities in some of the 3e+ spells and a couple minor rules here and there. The main point to me is that I have enjoyed all three rules sets.

    I have a pretty good understanding of how things work in all editions, and would be more than happy to help in some backwards conversion to give options to players of the previous editions. I would strongly suggest going with 3e as the basis for the GM project, with a conversion booklet/appendix for the other editions.

    The 3e bard represents a special case for backwards conversion, mainly as it has changed so drastically from what it was in 1e. 2e sought to make the bard its own stand-alone class; to be a jack-of-all-trades & master of none. 2e did well in achieving this goal, but in doing so, the jack-of-all-trades aspect merely represented knowledge contained in the other 4 base classes. At this point, the druidic background of the bard was thrown to the four winds, and it did not return with 3e. The bard is the only class that is not easily backwards compatible to 1e. The main problem is changing the current focus of the wizard spell background and inserting the druidic tutelage background- this is a very definite change in how the class operates magically. You can also go for a more straight forward backward conversion to the 1e bard using the version presented in an old issue of Dragon magazine(and also presented in one issue of Best of Dragon) that presents the bard as its own stand alone base class, where the character begins as a bard at 1st level, and which has druidic-based magic. This would be the best and easiest solution in my opinion. Regular bards could still exist, and these would follow the regular 1e bard class progression(from fighter to thief, to bard). Deciding how to implement them in backward conversions of low level bards is the main issue.

    If you want to retain the atmosphere of the new style bard, simply change the druidic tradition of the Dragon Magazine bard to that of a wizardly tradition by changing access from druid spells to mage spells, and requiring a spellbook or book of magical songs instead.

    I would be much more interested in helping compile information of this kind than to develop campaign arcs, though this is more of a case of where my personal interests currently lie.

    Anced math: PM me if you want help with this type of thing.
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:52 pm  
    Cebrion

    Hey Ceb,

    Thanks, and I will send you a PM. I am assembling playtesters now for the Adventure Path, and as we test each adventure and deem it at least serviceable, I will forward it to you for recommendations and thoughts.

    Thanks,

    AM
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
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    From: New York City

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    Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:26 pm  

    I play only 2E, and would be endlessly grateful if 1E or 2E stats for at least major characters were provided.

    As for bards, I've had to change how they're presented in 2E anyway, as I embraced the old article (from an Oerth Journal?) detailing bard's druidic backgrounds. Not all bards in my campaign have druidic powers, but a large sect does, serving as the urban colleagues and associates of rural druids.

    What's my point? Just not to get too hung up on this - people can and should tweak your final product to suit their needs, regardless.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 18, 2006
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    Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:45 am  
    Re: Editions

    Anced_Math wrote:


    For example, as we design the network of herbalists that live in every town and village of the Gran March we want it to be a useful fiction. We dont want to discuss in the text how every healer is an "adept," has a familiar, and can cast both divine and arcane spells.

    There is a simple goal here. We dont want a DM new to GH to have to rip the whole thing out and start over. That is going to drive many a newbie away, and from that perspective it is absolutely worth the effort.

    Thanks for all the input so far. Bards are still a tough one.... I think we will be very careful in the discussion of their magical abilities.


    Oh I see, in that case I would gloss over bards completely, they were incredibly rare in 1st edition and any mention of an Old Lore type of bard could simply be flavor text with any details left to the individual DMs.

    I imagine your greatest problem will be timeline and canon versus non-canon.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 24, 2001
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    From: Maryland

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    Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:00 pm  

    Or just use "edition" neutral stats like Fighter 7, Thief 6 or something like that...

    Mike
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