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    Canonfire :: View topic - Rapiers
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    Rapiers
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:01 pm  
    Rapiers

    What is the status of rapiers in GH. What are the canon references or characters who use rapiers?

    I love the weapon, but dont know how I like it in GH.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:25 pm  

    In the Rogues Gallery from way-back-when there is a character that has a sword of swiftness, or something like that. I do not recall if it was called a rapier, long or short sword, but the picture of it was a rapier. I think all those NPCs were from GH.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:40 pm  

    There really isn't any reason why such a blade would be used in GH, given the prevalence of heavy armors of the sort it wouldn't be that effective against. The rapier type of sword historically developed when gunpowder made the really heavy armors inpractical.

    That said, you could have them. For instance, if you have somewhere like Keoland (which has long periods of limited 'real' warfare and a well established court scene) you could have a 'courtsword' develop. Since no one would want to wear heavy armor in the heat of keoland's summer and it would be gauche at court anyway, then a sword like a rapier may well prove a useful development. Especially if you give Keoland a strong duelling culture, which the LG campaign has.

    Folks in Gran March might think they are effete and silly, but they would exist.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:41 pm  

    the 2e adventure book Treasures of Greyhawk contains many pictures of rapier armed people.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:50 pm  

    As Wolfsire mentioned, Erol Otus' PC Valerius in Rogues Gallery wields a magical sword of skewering, which is, in fact, a rapier. Also, I believe the rapier is one of Rudd's preferred weapons.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:33 pm  

    In line with Vormaerin's comment, heavy armor might very well be avoided at sea.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:13 pm  
    Read

    I am familiar with the general theory that the rapier was a development coming after the decline of armor. I have seen other commentary though that it is also a creation of better metallurgy. Theoretically the blade could pierce armor through its gaps and absences, but the thin blade and delicate age was not possible under general medieval metallurgy.

    I dont think that anyone would realistically take a rapier to a knight in full plate. But, I can see the "court sword," model above, and like it. There were "court," weapons in Japan that were intended for use only as a last gasp or against unarmored opponents.

    As for the people of Gran March, Vormaerin, they like anything with a blade Happy
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:48 pm  

    Better metallurgy was also required. But I seriously doubt that the better metallurgy by itself would have been enough to lead to rapiers if full body armor was still the norm. It would be possible to get a rapier into some of the gaps in many kinds of heavy armor. But its hardly a reliable strategy and you'd be at a big disadvantage against someone in that kind of armor with a much heavier blade.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:09 pm  

    Seems like an elvin weapon to me. It is mostly tied to Celene. They trade their elvish blades to surrounding nations. It caught on with the pirating folks of the Wild Coast, and from their swept southward in popularity. The Sea Princes have become known for their overly long, basket hilted blades that have lost their edge and end in a mere point. Great Kingdom princes take pride in acquiring true elvish-made rapiers. Fencing academies take up idle time from many a dapper prince.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:19 pm  

    Good synopsis OleOneEye

    It must be remembered the rapier was not developed with a strictly miltary purpose but rather as a display weapon. Simply put with the decline of armour and rise of the duelling culture within courts, the demand was for showy display rather then brute force.

    Since the goal of the combat wasn't neccessarily bloodshed and death, the weapons naturally evovled to heighten and extend the contest, killing your opponent was no longer enough; you had to impress with skill and style.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:22 am  
    So

    So....

    The consensus is that the rapier has a place in GH. I agree, particularly since magic makes heavy armor less advantageous than it was in the real world. They have never been a combat weapon, even unto the Civil War, the sabre was the weapon of choice.

    Where do you think they are common? As Vor said earlier, they are not popular in Gran March as almost everyone is in Armor. Niole Dra seems like a place they would be popular. IMO elves would be too practical for rapiers. Where else do you see them being popular? Where would they be forged.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:32 am  
    Re: So

    Anced_Math wrote:
    The consensus is that the rapier has a place in GH. . . . Where do you think they are common?


    I'd think any large urban environment where wearing armor openly would be frowned upon - a modification and expansion on the "court sword" idea.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:00 am  

    the idea of them being popular in celene and other elf heavey areas seems to be a good idea to start with, along with large urban centers and sea ports, where wearing heavy armor is not the norm would also make a great deal of sense.

    another thing to consider is that many parts of the southern flanaess are very warm (for instance the southern coast of Keoland around gradsul to salt marsh etc. has an average temperature that is a couple degrees higher then florida based upon extrapolations form the 83 boxed set, parts of the Yoemanry, Sunndi, Lordship of the Isles, and the Sea Princes would all be in similar situations) and in such areas wearing heavey armor would not be all that desirable.

    Quote:
    IMO elves would be too practical for rapiers
    why, rapiers are an elegant weapon, more suited to a fighting style that plays to thier strengths (high Dexterity), and they take less metal to make (Elves are not generaly known for thier dilligent mining)... (of course this is more relevent in 3e, because elves get automaitc rapier profeciency as a racial trait, but it holds true for previous editions to a lesser extent).

    (Edit... another thing I forgot to mention about the practicality of rapiers to elves is the fact that thier most common foes are not well known for wearing heavy plate type armor, so the rapiers would not be a disadvantage in general as far as fighting them is concerned).
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:06 am  
    Elves and Rapiers

    Wes,

    The reason I think elves would be too practical is that, IMO only, would stick with a weapon such as the longsword, due to it's versatility. I think the weapon would play to their strengths, but I also think that they wouldnt want to focus on a weapon that isnt versitle. That is simply my perception of Elves. IMO, elves probably dont carry weapons when they go to court. They are either at war, or not. I see elves more like Gilgalad than Legolas.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:06 pm  

    AM: "I see elves more like Gilgalad than Legolas."

    Only shorter .... Sorry. Happy
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:11 pm  

    Certainly the rapier is very popular in Ahlissa and elsewhere in the former Great Kingdom. In fact anywhere you have Oerids and nobility.

    An olven origin makes sense to me - but I can easily see it being adopted wholesale by the Aerdi nobility as a court blade.


    I have a concept of an Oeridian dueling culture that ties into the already documented Oerid love of arms and gladiatorial ritual combat. This arose from tribal ritual combats to resolve disputes decide legal and other matters among the Oerid tribes in the West before the migrations (I'm seeing something like the Cossack circle of blades where the combatants are confined withing a ring of sword-bearing warriors). As the Aerdi and other Oerids became settled, this tribal combat evolved into gladiatorial combat on one hand and a dueling culture on the other. As Aerdi nobles in the noontide of the Great Kingdom (and since) were not apt to wear full plate armour (if it even existed back then - which I doubt), they adopted light olven blades, which developed into rapiers. In Ahlissa (and indeed in the latter centuries of the Great Kingdom), a cadre of professional duelists developed to act as proxies to nobles and wealthy guildsmen who wanted to avoid being perforated in duels.

    Rapiers were never battlefield weapons in the real world. They wouldn't be in GH either.

    P.
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    Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:58 am  

    The actual rapier was originally a longsword with a sort of more pointy bit at the end. (It was used as a cavalry weapon when the lance was lost and sometinmes referred toa s the estoc.) Then a basket hilt. Then a thinner blade, to shed some pounds. etc. The point is, rapiers are heavier than longswords (but weight distribution is much more toward the hilt), more adapted to thrusting (and often have several more inches of blade), but still retain a very useful edge.

    The weapons D&D and other RPGs tend to describe as rapiers small swords, the evolution of the rapier into the Enlightenment as a purely thrusting civilian weapon and getting much exposure from swashbuckling pirate movies. Modern fencing is based on the smallsword. "Heavier" (not in terms of weight but balance) weapons with slashing edges were still in use and the norm for soldiers in the field and sailors at sea. The use of these weapons relies more on large muscle movements than finesse and is thus better suited to scared, cold, hungry, and hurting warriors. Adrenaline and fine motor skills don't really mix.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:23 am  

    I agree the rapier is a poor choice for the battle field setting aside the armour question most other weapons would damage the rapier itself given their superior weight.

    Must remember for the common man any weapon but especially a "gentleman's weapon" would be out of reach if it was socially allowed at all. Even the warmer climates generally the people facing combat such as sailors would still trust the sturdy cutlass then a thin rapier, on the high seas combat is not a game but life and death.

    I particularily like the fit with the GK, it matches well with the Aerdi nobles mix of refinement and excess.

    Outside of the upper class duelling society, I see rapiers as more of a style statement such as "gallant thief or outlaw swashbuckler type" where the goal is excitement and thrills not gain.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:08 am  

    Quote:
    I agree the rapier is a poor choice for the battle field setting aside the armour question most other weapons would damage the rapier itself given their superior weight
    rariers are not light in terms of weight, as Andy mentioned above... my rapiers actualy avaerage about 1 pound more in terms of weight then my "long swords" they are however much more easily menuvered around the wrist because of the way that weight is disrtibuted (meaning among other things that you do not have to parry straight on edge to edge, you can parry at an angle thus protecting your blade from damage).
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:23 pm  

    The rapier wasn't developed from a cavarly weapon. They developed as the slightly curved, single edged saber. Rapiers developed as a "civilian" sword for streetfighting in the growing cities.

    The rapier also wouldn't be heavier than a long sword. How could it be, being the same length and narrower? Nor did it have that many pounds to shed, as a longsword typically weighed about 3 lbs to begin with, and a rapier would only average half a pound less.

    And you would never parry edge to edge. Aside from that not actually being a parry but a sort of desperation block, doing so regularly would take chunks out of the edge of your blade, turning it into a piece of junk in very short order. You parried by going edge against side to focus the energy from your blade, and force the opponents blade to deflect.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:49 am  

    Rapiers are almost the same weight as most "long swords", though tend to be slightly less heavy by as little as 2-4 ounces on average(rapier: 2.5 - 2.75 lbs., "long sword" 2.5-3 lbs; an average based upon modern reproduction weapon weights) . The blade of the average rapier is also up to 3-5 inches longer than a comparable "long sword". The lack of metal in the blade of the rapier(due to the blade's thinness) is made up for in the metal of the elaborate hand guard mostly, the ultimate result being a sword with a balance point much closer to the hilt. This results in superior speed and blade control, which was much more important in a weapons that historically became secondary to the use of black powder weapons. As armor couldn't stop bullets(usually), it went out of style, and after that first round of shots went off, a fast and longer blade became much more important than a heavier bladed hacking one when fighting a lightly armored or unarmored opponenet.

    The end result is that the rapier, or a similarly thin-bladed weapon going by some other name(yes, make up your own Greyhawk name for the rapier if you like) will become very popular in areas where the wearing of medium and heavier armors is frowned upon.
    Being such a speed and finesse weapon, it is obvious that the rapier would become a weapon many would seek to master. Instead of there being a "Fastest Gun In The West", there comparably might be a "Fastest Blade In Oerik". Gotta love those swordmaster egos.

    Such a weapon as the rapier would very obviously be one that is persued by those who favor finesse over brutality in combat, and certianly by those who seek mastery of any blade, such as followers of Kelanen. Rogues are a natural choice for such a relatively light, fast, and deadly weapon (at least 3.5e got that one right...but they missed the sap! D'oh!!!).

    The "cut-and-thrust" sword or "sword-rapier" is a forerunner of, and slightly heavier bladed version of the rapier- a sort of median point between the long sword and the rapier. If you wish to allow this weapon in your game, I'd recommend the following stats:

    Sword-rapier(Martial One-Handed Melee Wapon)- Cost: 25 g.p., Dmg(S): 1d4+1, Dmg(M): 1d6+1, Critical: 19-20/x2, Wt.: 3lb., Type: Piercing or slashing.

    I mainly recommend this profile as it takes positive qualties from both of its parent weapons statistics without having the best qualities of both(that's right everybody, just say no to your inner MUNCHKIN!!! :) ). It is not a light weapon, nor does it have the improved criitical range of the rapier, but it has slightly better damage and the benefit of being both a piercing and slashing weapon. This is truly a weapon of trade-offs, but still very effective

    As Sam said, the rapier did not evolve from a cavalry weapon. However, the modern dueling or fencing saber did evolve from its cavalry counterpart.

    Trivia: The saber became a favorite weapon of European college students in the 1800's who dueled until one or the other cut his opponent on the cheek. One of the most well known colleges where this went on is the University of Heidelburg, Germany. Many a famous student grew large "mutton-chop" sideburns to hide their dueling scars, so as to appear more respectable as they assumed their place in high society later in life. Some wore eye-patches, as mutton chops did little to hide the occasionally pierced eye. Cool The saber was slooked on as a gentleman's weapon, it being carried by the officers in the armies of the time who were almost without exception of the gentry. These officers often chose to settle quarrels by dueling until first blood; duels to the death being extremely rare. Modern saber fencing arises from this tradition.

    For dueling sabers, simply use the rapier profile, but change the weapon type to "slashing". If you feel this takes away from the usefulness of the scimitar then also change the threat range of the dueling saber to 19-20/x2, if you have the need to de-MUNCHKIN-ify it for your MUNCHKIN players.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:18 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    The rapier wasn't developed from a cavarly weapon. They developed as the slightly curved, single edged saber. Rapiers developed as a "civilian" sword for streetfighting in the growing cities.


    The rapier is a refinement of the estoc for foot combat. The sabre is a separately developed cavalry weapon that was alternately thought to be a thrusting or a slashing weapon over 300 years and changed form to match. The final form used by the US Cavalry was designed by George S. Patton IV (yes, that one) as a straight bladed thrusting weapon.

    As an alternative to Cebrion's suggestion, you could keep the rapier's 3E weight of 4 lbs and add slashing to its damage type. YMMV.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:33 am  

    "While the existence of one-handed versions is not impossible, the estoc was a two handed weapon, originally from Germany, used solely for thrusting. Its blade was diamond sectioned and had no cutting edge. It was an excellent weapon for piercing mail, armor joints, and bodies. Many warriors carried their estocs without a sheath, slung over their back or carried over one shoulder."

    "An estoc is a type of sword common in the 16th century. It was long, straight and stiff, with a diamond or triangular cross-section. An estoc had no cutting edge, just a point. Examples from Poland are more than 1.57 m (62 inches) long, with a blade of 1.32 m (52 in.); however, others showed a more manageable 1.17 m (46 in.), with a 0.91 m blade (36 in.). The size seems to have been made-to-order.

    As armor improved, so did the methods of attacking the armor. It was quickly realized that cutting weapons were losing their effectiveness, so crushing weapons such as maces and axes were utilized. But thrusting weapons that could split the rings of mail, or find the joints and crevices of plate, were employed. Thus was the estoc developed. estoc is French, meaning thrust or point. Tuck is the English version of the word. German estoc-style weapons were called Panzerstecher (meaning "armor-piercer" or "armor-stinger"). Many consider the Tuck a forerunner of the rapier, but more likely it is a merging of the civilian sword (Espada Ropera) with the effective, and lighter tuck, that produced the rapier. But the tuck was an effective weapon. The long, straight blade was very rigid and could be thrust with one hand, or the second hand could be used to grip the blade to deliver an even more powerful thrust."

    It is very doubtful that the estoc was a weapon designed to be used while mounted, and is more in keeping with a footman's weapon.

    Also, the rapier's 3e weight is 3 lb.; in 3.5e it is 2 lb. More accurately the weapon should weigh in at about 2.5 lb.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:45 pm  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    The rapier is a refinement of the estoc for foot combat. The sabre is a separately developed cavalry weapon that was alternately thought to be a thrusting or a slashing weapon over 300 years and changed form to match. The final form used by the US Cavalry was designed by George S. Patton IV (yes, that one) as a straight bladed thrusting weapon.

    As an alternative to Cebrion's suggestion, you could keep the rapier's 3E weight of 4 lbs and add slashing to its damage type. YMMV.


    Cebrion covered the whole estoc evolution. (And I knew about fencing sabers developing from cavalry sabers, I was just sticking with rapiers. Smile )

    As for the "final form" of the saber, while it may have been straight for the US Cavalry, it wasn't for many others, including the US Marine dress sword.

    Either way, the rapier was really not designed as a battlefield weapon, and that is the critical element.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:20 am  

    As an alternative and for the sake of simplicity, in game terms for 1ed play, a rapier could be treated exactly like a longsword. Compare the jumble of blades that fall into the category scimitar.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:25 pm  

    Perhaps the inferiority of the rapier as a battlefield weapon played a key role in Celene basically rolling over in the path of the Keoland army. As a result of the rapier's impotence against heavy Keolander plate, the elves began adopting heavier blades. Thus, the traditional elvin longsword was developed. Humans, with their short memories, think that elves have always used longswords. Elves know the truth but are reluctant to admit any relatively recent cultural changes.

    Keolander knights still laughed at elves with their longswords, hardly capable of harming plate armor. It was, however, better than a rapier. Elves could not bring themselves to use truly effective weapons like a heavy mace or pole-axe. Always mindful of following ancient elvin traditions, they had to use some form of sword.

    Armed with longswords, elves were still hardly capable of harming a fully armored knight in melee. Celene was fully aware of this. It instituted an elvin position of passive resistance against Keoland. With patience, the Keoland armies did retreat from Celene - and within the lifetime of an elf. Such a tradition of passive resistance has carried over to this day. Celene has avoided all warfare but that which forces itself upon its door - the Temple of Elemental Evil and the Pomarj Empire.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:44 am  

    OleOneEye wrote:

    Keolander knights still laughed at elves with their longswords, hardly capable of harming plate armor.


    I think they'd have laughed less when they started hitting storms of longbow arrows with bodkin heads.

    Sam will no doubt comment, but I always thought that Celene went along with Keoland pretty much on forebearance of the hu-mans - and on the assumption that the Keoish didn't meddle with Celenese affairs. When they did start to do so, they were promptly ejected.

    I kind of have an image of a company of armoured Keoish knights marching on the palace in Enstad to deal with this Yolande upstart. They reach the gates of the palace. A voice calls for them to depart in peace. laughing contemptuously, the leader ignores it, steps across the threshold and promptly grows a half-dozen arrows out of his visor, chest and back. He falls over dead. The other knights look at each other uneasily, then at the literally hundreds of prime sniping positions around them and decide discretion is the better part of valour and withdraw. Smile

    P.
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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:05 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    As for the "final form" of the saber, while it may have been straight for the US Cavalry, it wasn't for many others, including the US Marine dress sword.


    That's because the USMC sword and saber were never meant to be used as cavalry weapons, given that the USMC never had horse cavalry. They were used for boarding actions and so developed to fit that role.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:05 am  

    As for Celene and Keoland:

    First, Keoland didn't become involved in Celene for more than 600 years after the Twin Cataclysms. I seriously doubt they had a sudden, significant, impact on elven weapon designs, no matter how the encounter went.
    Second, Keoland is primarily a sub-tropical nation. If Keoish knights went rampaging about in full plate on a routine basis, they would all be dead of heat stroke.
    Third, as noted, Keoland didn't conquer Celene. Depending on how you interpret the various passages, they either annexed it peacefully, or came to an alliance of convenience that rather favored Celene.
    Fourth, Celene also forcefully prosecuted the Hateful Wars. While a thrusting weapon like a rapier would be useful in underoerth tunnels, I am sure they still required a better armor piercing weapon even there, and would have favored spears or short swords for such combat.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:07 am  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    That's because the USMC sword and saber were never meant to be used as cavalry weapons, given that the USMC never had horse cavalry. They were used for boarding actions and so developed to fit that role.


    It is still a saber.
    If you want to compare sabers, you must compare all of them.
    Or I can simply dismiss your "final form" of the cavalry saber because it was developed for gunpowder armies, and not for use in medieval armies. Such distinctions work both ways.
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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:04 am  

    I still have my saber and I have no idea if it is anything similar to what was used in the 1700's. It certainly looked cool at the Marine Corps ball though. Smile

    Once I saw the elven thinblade-lightblade stats in Complete Warrior I kinda figured that's what the elites of Celene would use.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:14 pm  
    Comparison

    Well,

    The comparisons to history are nice and all... but the Elves (and this is cosistent throughout the editions) had a strong affinity to the GH equivalent of Gunpowder... Magic. Why wear heavy armor and carry really heavy weapons when a quick gout of flame will turn those pesky knights into pot pies?

    I think, for the same reasons gunpowder encouraged the waning of armor, magic would make the heavy armor less popular. This is a fantasy world, and it wont ever make complete logical sense (as if our does!?!?), but it would seem that the simple equivalence among the classes would indicate that Plate Armor is not the advantage it was in Medieval Europe.

    It does not mean that it isnt useful, or desireable, just that there are other alternatives. The original question was what role does the rapier play, if any, in GH. We have boiled it down to a court sword, and to areas where magic and longbows are popular. I suppose a companion question would be... Where is Heavy Armor popular? The Sheldomar, and Gran March in particular, with their long history of adversity to magic (at least among the soldiering classes) would be a prime candidate. Some sections of the Great Kingdom. Furyond and the Shield Lands?

    Where else? Who makes these fine blades? Where are schools to use them? Does Kelanen use a rapier?
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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:15 pm  
    Re: Comparison

    Anced_Math wrote:
    Why wear heavy armor and carry really heavy weapons when a quick gout of flame will turn those pesky knights into pot pies?


    Because the number of people who have magic is still shockingly low compared to the number of people who have swords, be they elves, humans, or what not.

    Quote:
    I think, for the same reasons gunpowder encouraged the waning of armor, magic would make the heavy armor less popular. This is a fantasy world, and it wont ever make complete logical sense (as if our does!?!?), but it would seem that the simple equivalence among the classes would indicate that Plate Armor is not the advantage it was in Medieval Europe.


    More armor is always an advantage over less armor. The question is just what the effectiveness of it is against all forms of attack versus the impairment to movement.

    Quote:
    The Sheldomar, and Gran March in particular, with their long history of adversity to magic (at least among the soldiering classes) would be a prime candidate. Some sections of the Great Kingdom. Furyond and the Shield Lands?


    Again, in most of the Sheldomar only if they want to suffocate evcept for the week before and after Fireseek.
    I'd say it would be most common from the city of Greyhawk north. Even the Great Kingdom would have trouble with heavy knights for the most part.

    As for rapiers, they will be popular in all cities, and some larger towns.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:26 am  

    IMO, if you are going to ask about elves and armor, you need to figure in the essentials- chain, boots and cloak.

    For plate in the south, Sam have a very valid point with the heat, but it should be explored.

    If my history is right, the Spanish wore very heavy breast plates in South America and their clothes were none too light either. Are there technologies or procedures that will make heavy armour viable in the south? How about campaigning in the winter? What about other armor? I would think that just about any would be as bad or almost as bad as plate. And you have to figure in magic, which will vary by edition. 1st ed +1 plate is not going to get hot and cantrips should be effective to cool down one person, suggesting that a reasonably high level spell could take care of an army.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:39 am  

    The cavalry style saber(basically any officers' sabre, as nearly any officer of rank had a horse even if they commanded an infantry unit) has not appreciably changed all that much since the late 1700's. The Marine Corps NCO dress saber is almost indistinguishable from the sabers of the American Civil War(1860's), with only the length of the blade and its weight being slightly different.

    In the 1700's-1800's oficers on ships did not carry sabers, but carried variant cutlasses, which would be very similar to the landborn army's infantry hanger. I have had the pleasure of holding one of these infantry hangers, a family relic dating back to Wellington's Pennisula Campaign. An infantry hanger has a much shorter blade(about 25" long; 31" overall weapon length) that is broader in width(about 1 3/4") and is a cleaving weapon that would not be favored by any duelist, other than by those who used them- infantry sergeants and ships officers.

    As to the rapier being an elven weapon, that is a simple matter of opinion, though almost anything deemed "elegant" seems to always be linked to the elves by most people.

    Seeing what the rapier(and the saber for that matter) is specifically designed for(for gaming purposes, lets say this is dueling), or rather who it would be most used by, it would make more sense that it was designed by a human, and a rogueish one at that. Elves are not prone to dueling, taking the long view of solving problems.

    Humans however...

    But then again, the original quickling art pictures the speedy little bugger holding a very precise representation of a rapier. So, the elf argument is not a bad one at all either. Wink

    Just don't have a priest of Kelanen named Aramis running about with a rapier, or you will hve to be hunted down for the unimaginative dog that you are! Happy
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:00 am  

    Touché, but then that would lead into a whole other weapons discussion. Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:52 pm  

    You just had to use the touche' word, didn't you.

    Someday I'll figure out how to type those accent-agu(or is that accent-grav?) e's.

    Some of the sword info I posted is considered slightly subjective. For a more intrusive explanation of various swords from people who are absolute nutters about all things edged and pointy, go to

    http://swordforum.com/

    You will see some great historical examples of swords from many time periods. Some of the info here is considered subjective, but you will find few places for sword info on the net that are better. You must register under a real name to see some of the info there.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:27 am; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:22 am  

    Wow! Great site. I see many hours lost here.... :)

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