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    Canonfire :: View topic - Dark Druids and the Gnarley Forest
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    Dark Druids and the Gnarley Forest
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:01 pm  
    Dark Druids and the Gnarley Forest

    I'm planning to run the Dark Druid's module by Rob Kuntz in the WoG. I understand it was originally written to be run in the Gnarley Forest, which is a good thing since our group is currently in Verbobonc.

    I'm trying to find out if anyone knows any specific locations in the Gnarley associated with this module? Is the Dark Druids lair near Oakvein? The Wailing Halls? Shelleton? Bad Deep? I have some ideas of my own, but I was wondering if any hints had come across any forums or gossip. I've tried searching other forums and the web, and I've looked at Rob's bibiliography here, and at Grodog's site and I didn't see anything specific other than "in the Gnarley."

    So, did I just miss something, or am I looking for something that's just not there? Happy

    Theala
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:13 pm  
    Follow Up/My thoughts on the Dark Druids module

    Well, I ended up running my Dark Druids game, and picked my own locations.

    I don't know if anyone else has looked at this module--Rob Kuntz has contributed a lot to the WoG, and this module supposedly was originally set in the Gnarley.

    I found that I had to really strip down the module to its core elements in order to make use of it. There were a number of reasons for this. 1) the nature of my players. Kuntz doesn't really give a lot of plot hooks other than overt recruitment of the players to "combat evil", and my players need a bit more than a ring in the nose to get them going in the right direction, and 2) the module lays out a fight between rival sects of Dark Druids. But it doesn't really lay out a reasonable way for the players to uncover or understand the nature or history of the conflict--or to care about it. Typical hack n slash players won't care, they'll just kill everything in sight.

    Fortunately, my players aren't hack n slash, and the story of the Dark Druids fits in with the backgrounds of my players well enough for me to find ways to motivate them. What I had to account for is the talent of my players for finding unique solutions to tough problems--I knew they would not slug their way through the complex to get to the bad guys, and I had to account for that.

    Anyway, as to placement . . . .

    I decided to put the Dark Druids east of Shelleton, just within Celene's borders. That puts it in reach of Greyhawk, Dyvers, and Celene--fairly centralized for wider predations of the Dark Druids, to thus give players reason for concern.

    I also tied up some loose ends from a previous adventure I ran a few months ago, the Standing Stone. I set that adventure near Ostverk, in the Viscounty of Verbobonc. When that adventure wrapped up, the main bad guys (a tiefling named Dyson, and a vrock disguised as a bard called the Cuckoo) got away, and the grugach elves in the area actually took the fall for what the bad guys were doing--my GMPC tried to get the wild elves to move across the border into Celene to protect them with Langard was forced to act but the wild elves refused and there were a number of nasty border skirmishes as a result. Dyson moved to the Dark Druids grove, took over, and perverted them from the worship of the Shalm to Tharizdun.

    My players were pretty clever. They have a flying carpet, and flew over one barrier to get to the main entrance to the dungeons (normally accessable by a magic gate), searched the area to find air vents to the dungeons, and then used fire to smoke the two factions out rather than fight their way through. Since Kuntz designed the dungeon with only one way in or out (other than the Gult), the Dark Druids had only one real choice: leave, or choke to death. It took some time and cleverness, but it was a lot more effective.

    Of course, they did have an exciting air chaise with the Cuckoo (defeated when he chased the illusion of pixies into the ground). Eventually they rounded up the Dark Druids, captured Dyson (who was later executed), and recovered the tarrasque spike (which they hid with a portable hole).

    All in all, pretty interesting to see how they handled the adventure: 1 illusionist, 1 ranger, and 2 warriors. Not a bad line up for players who prefer to find their own solutions (which I knew they would). But if you're going to run this module, and you have players who like to slugfest their way through things, they will need plenty of healing magic, plus magic weapons to deal with all the demonic magic that infests the place.

    For me, tying it in with the Stadning Stone helped improve the story a bit--in the Standing Stone the villain uses the magic he finds in Ossington to turn the local animals into people--druidic magic. I thought that was a perfect tie in for Dark Druids. When the players went to Shelleton, they found the same kinds of things happening there: local animals disappearing, new Druids appearing out of nowhere.

    There were a lot of holes in Dark Druids--but they were fairly easy to fill with WoG storylines, making the module usable is the bottom line.

    Theala
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    Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:43 am  

    Oddly enough, gibberlings are present in two locations of the WoG '83 boxed set (Blackmoor and Suss Forest) that share a common attribute. (If memory serves well there is even a reference of the monster inside the DA series.) The common attribute is that both locations were under development at that time by others than the author of the '83 boxed set. Blackmoor was developed by Arneson, and Suss Forest (actually Gnarley which belongs to the same forest complex with the Suss) was developed by RJ Kuntz. Therefore, I would have placed Dark Druids at the Welkwood-Suss border. The border with Suss offers even more advantages. Recall that evil treants and strange vegetation is encountered in the Suss, which makes it ideal for the lair of the Dark Druids who may even have contributed to such perverted plant life. All may be very well related to another Kuntz's module the Garden of the Plantmaster, Tharizdun, the lost Suss city, or even the Kuntz’s Old Ones! I have done a little work on the lost Suss city you may find interesting to read, The Mystery of the Lost Suss City, and POSTFEST: 594 CY: Enter the Dragon. Then, the Dark Druids are definitely not in the Suss ruined city, since this would have been mentioned in its only published description in Artifact of Evil Gord novel, but could be close to it.
    CF Admin

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    Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:03 pm  

    Sorry I didn't see this post prior to you starting you game, Theala. IIRC, Rob talks about placement of DD in the Gnarley over on his boards, but the posts may have been nuked with the ezboard crashes last year. If you're interested in comparing notes with Rob, post your Q over to his DD forum at http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpublishingfrm41
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    Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:59 am  

    grodog wrote:
    Sorry I didn't see this post prior to you starting you game, Theala. IIRC, Rob talks about placement of DD in the Gnarley over on his boards, but the posts may have been nuked with the ezboard crashes last year. If you're interested in comparing notes with Rob, post your Q over to his DD forum at http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpublishingfrm41


    Yes of course Allan. Only that when Rob wrote/run Dark Druids in 1976 the world of Greyhawk was just a baby. Gnarley was the proximate forest to city of Greyhawk. Names like Welkwood and Suss, I believe were developed and added later to the world. Or am I mistaken? In any case Gnarley-Welkwood-Suss is one and the same forest complex. I feel the common element of Blackmoor and Suss which *only* these two places share in '83 boxed set is no coincidence, and for this reason in the analytical mind of Gygax I believe they were in particular designated to differ in the same way from all other places. May be I am completely wrong.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:29 am  

    grodog wrote:
    Sorry I didn't see this post prior to you starting you game, Theala. IIRC, Rob talks about placement of DD in the Gnarley over on his boards, but the posts may have been nuked with the ezboard crashes last year. If you're interested in comparing notes with Rob, post your Q over to his DD forum at http://p085.ezboard.com/fpiedpiperpublishingfrm41


    I remember looking at these forums, but I couldn't find any posts that had anything specific other than "the Gnarley" The Gnarley's a big place--I had been hoping for a place name, like The Wailing Hall, or near Shelleton or something to nail it down a bit :) I didn't see anything like that, but maybe I just missed it.

    Oh well--no great loss. The adventure went on well enough, and we had a good time. Happy

    Theala
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    Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:34 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Oddly enough, gibberlings are present in two locations of the WoG '83 boxed set (Blackmoor and Suss Forest) that share a common attribute. (If memory serves well there is even a reference of the monster inside the DA series.) The common attribute is that both locations were under development at that time by others than the author of the '83 boxed set. Blackmoor was developed by Arneson, and Suss Forest (actually Gnarley which belongs to the same forest complex with the Suss) was developed by RJ Kuntz. Therefore, I would have placed Dark Druids at the Welkwood-Suss border. The border with Suss offers even more advantages. Recall that evil treants and strange vegetation is encountered in the Suss, which makes it ideal for the lair of the Dark Druids who may even have contributed to such perverted plant life. All may be very well related to another Kuntz's module the Garden of the Plantmaster, Tharizdun, the lost Suss city, or even the Kuntz’s Old Ones! I have done a little work on the lost Suss city you may find interesting to read, The Mystery of the Lost Suss City, and POSTFEST: 594 CY: Enter the Dragon. Then, the Dark Druids are definitely not in the Suss ruined city, since this would have been mentioned in its only published description in Artifact of Evil Gord novel, but could be close to it.


    Yeah, we used that material recently in our campaign Happy

    I'm not the principal GM in our group--I only run occasionally (though I will be running more often now, to give our GM a break and a chance to play). Our GM just ran us through the Lost City of the Suss--he used a number of sources to recreate the City and it was wickedly cool.

    My character is still suffering from nighmares and sleepless nights from the lost city, and uncovered a link to her mysterious past that is taking her to stranger and stranger places Happy

    Theala
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    Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:43 am  

    By the way, did you find the invulnerable coat of Arn inside Dark Druids?
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    Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:18 am  

    I asked Rob on the Pied Piper boards when the module first came out. I forget his response :)

    Although I rememeber that Tharizdun was recommended elsewhere as a good substitute for the Dark God.

    Mike
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    Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:49 am  

    That now makes so perfect sense, connecting to the Tharizdun reverential place of the lost Suss city.

    Did you follow the link in PPP board regarding the location of Dark Druids lair that grodog provided? One can readily infer that the lair is south of the Gnarley forest (Narlewood in BC) and west of Safeton (Jepton in BC), which effectively places it on the border of Welkwood with the Suss, just like I was suspecting. So Welkwood is the wood of the Welk=w-elk=N-Threxus=Anthraxus.
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    Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:46 am  

    And now that the location of the Dark Druids lair has been found, all that is left is to calculate the ideal time to run the module. Once the connection with Anthraxus is established, all you have to do is to trace the movements of Anthraxus. The movements of Anthraxus are hidden inside City of Hawks Gord novel.

    The very scholarly “Saga of Old City Chronology and Notes” by Erik Mona places the birth of Gord in 559 CY. Based on that, CoH takes place from 559 CY on, since Gord is infant in the beginning of the novel. There were two attempts to kill infant Gord, both instigated by Infestix (Nerull is his avatar).

    The first attempt is by Colvetis Pol the Great Priest of Nerull in the Lightless Temple of Greyhawk, and his consort Sigildark the mage. Both are above 15th level, with Colvetis Pol ready to achieve lichdom. Their network includes Halferd the mage (10th level or more), and two among the best assassins of Greyhawk, Alburt and Slono Spotless (they are both killed by Poxpanus in the Lightless Temple after their failure).The infant Gord is preserved as if a miracle had happened, and no clue is given in the novels.

    The second murder attempt on Gord is immediately after the first, by Poxpanus (Incabulos, a.k.a. Lord of All Pox, CoH, p. 57). Before that he had contested long with Anthraxus for the second position in Hades, being the Viceroy of Glooms (CoH, p. 62). The first position in Hades is the Gloom of Hades, and at that time it was held by Infestix (CoH, p. 27). Poxpanus, such a great daemon at that time, fails and is chained in Hades for going mad, until he recovers. It is very doubtful if he could ever retain his position, after such a traumatic experience. Colvetis Pol withdraws to hermitage. What is amazing is how swift and complete was Poxpanus’ defeat, which also raises the question of who protected Gord.

    Naturally, Antraxus takes advantage of the situation and attains the Viceroy of Glooms after 559 CY, if not the Lord of Glooms as well. MMII, which demands Anthraxus as Lord of Glooms, is published in 1983. If we apply meta-text onomastics (the LGJ calendar translation rule), the manual refers to 1983-1410 = 573 CY on. In Artifact of Evil (p. 233), at the start of the invasion of Iuz to the Horned Society, Anthraxus is the Lord of Glooms (!), Daemonking of Hades, but he comes to the Hierarchs at the behest of Nerull !! This last event in AoE is placed in 579 CY, due to the Robilar foray in ToEE, which is mentioned just before the Anthraxus event. It is also implied at the end of the Anthraxus meeting with the Hierarchs that Anthraxus is killed by Zugttmoy, but the way the text is written leaves room for him escaping death.

    Therefore, the best period to run Dark Druids is after Poxpanus enchainment in Hades (559 CY) and before the defeat of Anthraxus by Zugttmoy (579 CY). After 579 CY, I would suggest to that the Umber Eye sect of the DDs is considerably weakened, and the Black Hats sect regains its power.
    [/i]
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    Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:06 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    By the way, did you find the invulnerable coat of Arn inside Dark Druids?


    I did, though you wouldn't recognize it for what it is Happy

    +3 splint mail, SA invulnerable.

    Theala
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    Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:31 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    And now that the location of the Dark Druids lair has been found, all that is left is to calculate the ideal time to run the module. Once the connection with Anthraxus is established, all you have to do is to trace the movements of Anthraxus. The movements of Anthraxus are hidden inside City of Hawks Gord novel.

    The very scholarly “Saga of Old City Chronology and Notes” by Erik Mona places the birth of Gord in 559 CY. Based on that, CoH takes place from 559 CY on, since Gord is infant in the beginning of the novel. There were two attempts to kill infant Gord, both instigated by Infestix (Nerull is his avatar).

    The first attempt is by Colvetis Pol the Great Priest of Nerull in the Lightless Temple of Greyhawk, and his consort Sigildark the mage. Both are above 15th level, with Colvetis Pol ready to achieve lichdom. Their network includes Halferd the mage (10th level or more), and two among the best assassins of Greyhawk, Alburt and Slono Spotless (they are both killed by Poxpanus in the Lightless Temple after their failure).The infant Gord is preserved as if a miracle had happened, and no clue is given in the novels.

    The second murder attempt on Gord is immediately after the first, by Poxpanus (Incabulos, a.k.a. Lord of All Pox, CoH, p. 57). Before that he had contested long with Anthraxus for the second position in Hades, being the Viceroy of Glooms (CoH, p. 62). The first position in Hades is the Gloom of Hades, and at that time it was held by Infestix (CoH, p. 27). Poxpanus, such a great daemon at that time, fails and is chained in Hades for going mad, until he recovers. It is very doubtful if he could ever retain his position, after such a traumatic experience. Colvetis Pol withdraws to hermitage. What is amazing is how swift and complete was Poxpanus’ defeat, which also raises the question of who protected Gord.

    Naturally, Antraxus takes advantage of the situation and attains the Viceroy of Glooms after 559 CY, if not the Lord of Glooms as well. MMII, which demands Anthraxus as Lord of Glooms, is published in 1983. If we apply meta-text onomastics (the LGJ calendar translation rule), the manual refers to 1983-1410 = 573 CY on. In Artifact of Evil (p. 233), at the start of the invasion of Iuz to the Horned Society, Anthraxus is the Lord of Glooms (!), Daemonking of Hades, but he comes to the Hierarchs at the behest of Nerull !! This last event in AoE is placed in 579 CY, due to the Robilar foray in ToEE, which is mentioned just before the Anthraxus event. It is also implied at the end of the Anthraxus meeting with the Hierarchs that Anthraxus is killed by Zugttmoy, but the way the text is written leaves room for him escaping death.

    Therefore, the best period to run Dark Druids is after Poxpanus enchainment in Hades (559 CY) and before the defeat of Anthraxus by Zugttmoy (579 CY). After 579 CY, I would suggest to that the Umber Eye sect of the DDs is considerably weakened, and the Black Hats sect regains its power.
    [/i]


    Assuming you take the Gord novels as canon--I know some folx do, and our group will draw from them occasionally if it makes a good story, but we don't tie the events in the novels too tightly into Greyhawk history because there are a lot of inconsistencies and a lot of names that don't appear in the RPG material.

    I did, however, make the same tie between N'Threxus and Tharizdun. There was a certain sense to it, based on his actions as well as other things we had going on in our campaign (my PC has a major sub-plot going on that involves Tharizdun, and another PC does as well).

    I was interested to see where the events of Dark Druids was supposed to take place--it does make a lot of sense for it to be there in the Suss, though that would not have been a good place for the game I wanted to run (motivating my players to go back there after we had just left would have been difficult if not impossible).

    Theala
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    Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:59 am  

    Theala_Sildorian wrote:
    Tzelios wrote:
    By the way, did you find the invulnerable coat of Arn inside Dark Druids?


    I did, though you wouldn't recognize it for what it is Happy

    +3 splint mail, SA invulnerable.

    Theala


    Whoah!!! Bravo Theala Happy
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    Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:00 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Theala_Sildorian wrote:
    Tzelios wrote:
    By the way, did you find the invulnerable coat of Arn inside Dark Druids?


    I did, though you wouldn't recognize it for what it is Happy

    +3 splint mail, SA invulnerable.

    Theala


    Whoah!!! Bravo Theala Happy


    Of course, the players didn't actually dig through the DD lair, so they didn't find it Happy They did find the tarrasque spike, but they didn't recognize it for what it was (two of the characters had see the tarrasque before) so one of the players used a portable hole to hide the thing, having uncovered that the Umber Eye sect was looking for it.

    Theala
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    Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:27 am  

    Theala_Sildorian wrote:
    Assuming you take the Gord novels as canon--I know some folx do, and our group will draw from them occasionally if it makes a good story, but we don't tie the events in the novels too tightly into Greyhawk history because there are a lot of inconsistencies and a lot of names that don't appear in the RPG material.Theala


    Gord novels are more proximate to canon than the Dark Druids module. The first two of them, Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil, together with City of Hawks, which refer to the period before 579 CY, do not introduce insurmountable conflict with established lore. For example Erik Mona have fully and efficiently used the material on beggars-thieves' war from the Gord novels in his LGJ article on the Beggars Union of Greyhawk city (Dragon #301). Once you use a distant source to canon as the DDs are, then I do not understand why to bother not using the Gord novels.
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    Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:25 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Theala_Sildorian wrote:
    Assuming you take the Gord novels as canon--I know some folx do, and our group will draw from them occasionally if it makes a good story, but we don't tie the events in the novels too tightly into Greyhawk history because there are a lot of inconsistencies and a lot of names that don't appear in the RPG material.Theala


    Gord novels are more proximate to canon than the Dark Druids module. The first two of them, Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil, together with City of Hawks, which refer to the period before 579 CY, do not introduce insurmountable conflict with established lore. For example Erik Mona have fully and efficiently used the material on beggars-thieves' war from the Gord novels in his LGJ article on the Beggars Union of Greyhawk city (Dragon #301). Once you use a distant source to canon as the DDs are, then I do not understand why to bother not using the Gord novels.


    Well, part of the problem with Greyhawk is the mythology is not well or consistently thought out. The names often appear to be hodge podge or randomly chosen, and are difficult to pronounce. Gygax's writing style is lackluster (I read the first Gord novel, and could not bring myself to read more). I usually prefer to stick with the RPG mythology because at least there is some consistency between the published products whereas there are inconsistencies and gaps between the novels and gaming products. As you yourself point out, it took the work of people like Erik Mona to bridge those gaps. It's great that Erik did that--but that's more work that I"ve been willing to do on my own in the past Happy

    Of course, with the lack of new material, mining the novels has been a way for my GM to spring surprises on me . . . .

    Theala
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