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    Canonfire :: View topic - Wee Jas-Goddess of Death and Magic
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- D&D 3.0e/3.5e/d20/Pathfinder
    Wee Jas-Goddess of Death and Magic
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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    From: Reno, Nevada

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    Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:49 pm  
    Wee Jas-Goddess of Death and Magic

    Hi everybody, I run a game that takes place in the Flanaess. My nephew plays a Sor/Cleric of Wee Jas. He likes the ideal of being devoted to a goddess of Death. As part of the Death Domain he gets the Death Touch, which can be pretty nasty.
    When he first made this character I told him that he couldnt cast Healing Spells as a Cleric of Wee Jas because I read that. However, I did tell him that he could use Healing wands and potions.

    Last week when we played he pointed out to me that what I had read was in the PHB and that I interpreted it wrong. He may be right, I only wish he would've pointed this out more than a year ago. I feel it's his job to know his character.

    In my 3.5 PHB (1st printing, July 2003) under Spontaneous Casting it says: All Lawful Neutral Clerics of Wee Jas convert spells to Inflict spells, not Cure spells. It doesn't say anything about Clerics of Wee Jas not being able to cast Healing spells. It just says they can't Spontaneously cast Healing spells like most good aligned Clerics can. It does'nt make sense to me that they can only convert Spontaneous spells to Inflict but yet they can cast Healing spells as normal too. So they get Death Touch, spontaneous Inflict spells and regular Healing spells? Seems a tad bit powerful to have all that!

    Not much is said in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, other than Wee Jas's Clerics must get her permission before restoring a weak or chaotic being to life. (Which might indicate that they can indeed Raise or Resurrect, but that says nothing about Healing)
    In the L.G.G. Wee Jas is concerned with the fate of the dead and promotes using spells and magic items. She is favored by Necromancers-which arent known for their Healing.

    So what do I do at this point? Bite the bullet and now allow him to cast Heal spells or say too bad thats how it is-its been nearly 2 years, should've figured it out back then!
    Let me know what you guys think?
    Also, if anyone has more info on Wee Jas please let me know. I'd like to give my nephew some background for his character.
    Thanks.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:35 am  
    Re: Wee Jas-Goddess of Death and Magic

    Mouse wrote:
    So they get Death Touch, spontaneous Inflict spells and regular Healing spells? Seems a tad bit powerful to have all that!


    Not really. In fact, there is usually much more of a game-balance issue if negative-channelers cannot cure at all and positive-channelers cannot inflict at all, even though that was the way it worked (I think) in the previous Editions. Under most circumstances, this system would give PCs (who tend, pace your nephew's character, to be positive-channelers) one Baator of an edge over their usual adversaries. Can't cast inflict? Never mind; it is not as though there are not many, many other ways to do damage in this game. Can't cast cure? Where is your healing going to come from, then, especially at higher levels? A 10th level barbarian with average hit points and a 14 Con takes more than a week to heal from 0 hps to full under his own steam if he cannot get ahold of healing magic.

    Death Touch needs to be seen in perspective, too. Compare a 9th level cleric with Death Touch to a 9th level wizard with orb of force. Both involve making an attack roll and rolling 9d6, but

    a) The wizard can do it from 190 ft. away.

    b) The wizard's attack does damage regardless of his target's original hp total. If the cleric picks someone with too many hps, nothing happens.

    c) The wizard can do this more than once a day, although it is true that he, unlike the cleric, needs spell slots to do it.

    Death Touch is a cool ability, but when you compare the granted powers of Luck or Travel domain, Death is not going to have your average munchkin drooling.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:44 pm  

    Hi Mouse. I sympathize with your situation and affirm your right as DM to set the rules for your campaign. While your nephew's interpretation is correct according D&D 3.5, as Prochytes mentioned (and you may already know), your interpretation was the one suggested by AD&D 2e's rules on clerical spheres.

    However, more important than past rule sets are the standards you set in your campaign. I suggest first applauding your nephew's discovery and then taking the time to explain that you're attempting to create a distinctive fantasy roleplaying setting for his enjoyment.

    IYC, clerics of Wee Jas cannot cast cure spells. They are only able to use necromancy for malign ends and have lost the ability to channel positive energy. This doesn't make them "less than" other clerics but rather different from them. For example, few other clerics have the facility with magick in general and necromancy in particular of those devoted to Wee Jas.

    Shifting from your campaign specifically, DMs interested in distinguishing clerics of Wee Jas in this way might create the opportunity for a PC to quest to (re?)establish clerics of Wee Jas's connection to the Positive Material Plane a la the long established controversy over Wee Jas's "slide" from neutrality toward evil.

    Also, Heroes of Horror has some feats that might prove interesting. I'm thinking of one that allows the character to be healed by inflict spells, i.e., to react as an undead to these spells. Such a character featured in Dungeon's recent Adventure Path too.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:34 am  
    Re: Wee Jas-Goddess of Death and Magic

    Mouse wrote:

    Also, if anyone has more info on Wee Jas please let me know. I'd like to give my nephew some background for his character.
    Thanks.


    The Living Greyhawk Campaign has a nice write-up of the goddess in their deities document, which is here (look under her name; I hope that it is alright to post the link):

    http://wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LG_Deities.

    There is also an interesting essay on her cult in Oerth Journal 7

    http://www.oerthjournal.com/oerthjournals/OJ_07.pdf

    Enjoy.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:33 am  

    First off, welcome to Canonfire Mouse.

    It is good that you are reaching out for advice. We all do it at some time or another. There is so much information out there that it can be hard to find anything.

    As to Wee Jas, she is more appropriately a deity not of Death, as in dealing death, but more of a "Guardian of the Dead". Healing spells are not off limits to her followers. The only spells she really frowns on the use of is animate dead spells or create undead spells, as these go against her tenets- even though Wee Jas has power over the undead, she hates them. She limits raise dead and resurrection magic, as she is loathe to give up those souls who have entered her domain, but she is not opposed to healing magic that might prevent death.

    As to the spontaneous inflict ability, it is no more powerful than a good or neutral cleric's ability to spontaneously heal, cast inflict spells, and potentially have a death touch attack. That being said, there are many who do not like the Death domain as it is written being used for clerics of Wee Jas. Animate dead is one of the spells on that list, and while Wee Jas might not utterly ban the use of that spell, She would only allow its use by her clerics in some dire circumstance.

    I initially decided to alter the Death domain for clerics of Wee Jas, as shown below:

    Wee Jas Death Domain Update

    Granted Power: You may use a death touch once per day. Your death touch is a supernatural ability that produces a death effect. You must succeed on a melee touch attack against a living creature (using the rules for touch spells). When you touch, roll 1d6 per cleric level you possess. If the total at least equals the creature’s current hit points, it dies (no save).

    Domain Spells

    1 Cause Fear
    2 Death Knell
    3 Halt Undead
    4 Death Ward
    5 Slay Living
    6 Undeath to Death
    7 Destruction
    8 Symbol of Death
    9 Wail of the Banshee

    I later created a "Guardian of the Dead" domain, which I now use for clerics of Wee Jas. There is of course no reason why you couldn't use bothe versions to represent divisions in her church. I am still considering doing this myself.

    Guardian of the Dead Domain

    Deities: Wee Jas, Anubis

    Granted power: You turn or rebuke undead(depending on alignment; clerics of Wee Jas always rebuke, regardless of alignment) with a +2 bonus to your turning check, and add +1d6 on your damage roll. You must gain permission from your deity (through augury, commune, etc.) to cast animate dead, raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection.

    Guardian of the Dead Domain Spells

    1 Deathwatch
    2 Gentle Repose
    3 Speak with Dead
    4 Death Ward
    5 Disrupting Weapon
    6 Undeath to Death
    7 Destruction
    8 Symbol of Death
    9 Soul Bind

    I hope that helps with a few ideas on how to resolve things. There are lots of topics and articles on Wee Jas here at Canonfire. Be sure to not only do an Article search, but a Forum search as well (they are two different things).
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:31 am  

    Or switch her to the Repose domain, which is what LG did.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:27 pm  

    The Repose domain is really good, sort of a combination of what I figured out. I'll have to look into Sandstorm to see what else there is of use in there.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:12 pm  

    Repose Domain? Sounds morbid Sad
    You say thats in Sandstorm? I'll have to check that out.

    Thanks for the lowdown guys.

    I actually posted this topic on the WOTC website, but most of the time you get much more than asked for there. I'm running a game in Greyhawk I'm trying to keep to the Greyhawk continuity as much as possible. I've been getting the Greytalk digest for more than a year and sometimes theres some good info there.

    "As to Wee Jas, she is more appropriately a deity not of Death, as in dealing death, but more of a "Guardian of the Dead". Healing spells are not off limits to her followers. The only spells she really frowns on the use of is animate dead spells or create undead spells, as these go against her tenets- even though Wee Jas has power over the undead, she hates them. She limits raise dead and resurrection magic, as she is loathe to give up those souls who have entered her domain, but she is not opposed to healing magic that might prevent death" -Cebrion

    Thanks Cebrion, that tidbit is helpful. Reason being, I think in his mind he thinks he's going to be some crazy Necromancer and Create Undead armys or something, who knows. So what I may do is have Wee Jas speak to him in a dream (or maybe even in person, right?) and make sure he knows that Undead are to be destroyed and not created.
    I think I will allow him to be able to cast Heal spells. I will also make sure he knows that the Death Touch is to be used in dire circumstances, not to be used lightly.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:44 am  

    The original write-up on Wee Jas was in Dragon #88. In that version, special mention was made of the fact that Wee Jas holds Law above all else, and is on friendly terms with all Lawful deities. She is the foe of all Chaotic deities, excepting Norebo whom she has...relations with. Wee Jas is also known to have an affinity with dragons, and she can summon lawful dragons to serve her. Wee Jas is also known to surround Herself with a field that utterly destroys undead that touch it, and she can command or destroy undead as is her whim. She is highly opposed to armies of undead, regardless of whether the undead are Lawful or not, and is not too keen on anybody who creates undead either.

    Later versions of Wee Jas from the 2e "Scarlet Brotherhood" supplement and the 3e+ "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer" also add their own varying descriptions of Wee Jas.

    Look into whichever of those sources you can get your hands on.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:44 am  

    Mouse wrote:
    Repose Domain? Sounds morbid Sad
    You say thats in Sandstorm? I'll have to check that out.


    The reverse actually. It replaces all the undead creation spells of the Death domain with other necromatic spells. It still has a bit of nastiness, the domain ability is the same death touch, but it isn't an undead focused domain. I think it is what the Death domain always should have been, since it is more of an Undeath domain (compare the two) as written.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:27 pm  

    According to the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, Wee Jas was originally just the goddess of magic and law. The survivors of the Rain of Colorless Fire started praying to her to look after the souls of their loved ones, since they died in a massive magical disaster. This eventually led to her portfolio expanding to include death, with emphasis on protecting the departed.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:41 pm  

    Mouse,

    Your Greyhawk campaign is your campaign. You are the judge. With that being said (and you have probably already made your ruling) I would go with the 3.0/3.5 rules for casting as written (a LN cleric of Wee Jas can only spontaneous inflict, but they can memorize healing spells). This is a mechanics issue, not a Greyahawk issue.

    You and the player both bear the responsibility for knowing the rules. If you want to keep your house rule (Spontaneous healing = no inflict spells/spontaneous inflict = no healing spells) just be aware that it will impact your cleric of Wee Jas' ability to contribute in their role as primary party healer.

    Fact is being a spontaneous inflicter already is a disadvantage, you have to waste precious slots that could be used for other spells limiting your versatility if you want to heal.

    My two coppers.

    As for reconciling a lot of disparate info on Wee Jas, check out Sean K. Reynolds in Dragon 350. I think you will find it very informative.

    Thanks,

    Bryan Blumklotz
    AKA Saracenus
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