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The non-GH 4e thread!
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smillan_31
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidBedlam wrote:
BlueWitch wrote:
I've said it before. What it (WotC not producing any more GH material) means is that Greyhawk will be OURS!


It's our! All ours! BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

*Ahem*

What Blue said. As long we are here to talk endlessly about stuff and complain about the young'uns and their new fangled technology and computers and fashions and theory of relativity and all that modern junk, Greyhawk will never die.

We'll just keep casting Raise Dead over and over.

Laughing


I agree in theory except we'll probably still have situations where something comes out like "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk" where we can argue back and forth whether something is canon or not. Looking at the preview for the new Dungeon they're already doing an update of "Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" so I doubt that WoTC is really going to ever leave GH alone.

IP-wise GH belongs to WoTC but otherwise it's already ours if we want it to be so I don't really see much changing.

From the designer notes out already it sounds like 4e characters are going to be defined more by "I'm a fighter with an axe" rather than "I'm a poor gentleman man-at-arms from Ahlissa who was forced to flee to the Wild Coast due to killing the son of the baron in a duel." But judging from some of the groups I've attempted to play with in the last few years that is already the situation with 3 and 3.5 and the latter example of "roleplaying" is almost extinct.

Given that the only roleplayers I know who fit my style of roleplaying are scattered across the country I'm highly interested in an internet-based digital game table. The thing that has stopped me so far is how complicated it'll be to set up on my own, so if with 4e WoTC can give me the tools to do that and still have a game that runs pretty easily I'll heartily thank them for it.

If not I probably won't run or play in any games unless I'm lucky enough to meet some gamers who play more in my style. Either way I'm going to keep writing stuff for and continue to participate in Canonfire! and GH the way I am now.
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DavidBedlam
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smillan_31 wrote:
From the designer notes out already it sounds like 4e characters are going to be defined more by "I'm a fighter with an axe" rather than "I'm a poor gentleman man-at-arms from Ahlissa who was forced to flee to the Wild Coast due to killing the son of the baron in a duel."


I don't see why the rule set should define the way in which games are played. I'm sure that is will just as possible to role-play deep characters in fourth edition as it was in past editions.

I've been reading a few of the early adventures that I've downloaded from Paizo, and some of them appear to be "Here's a dungeon. Loot it!". Now if adventures like those can inspire good roleplaying, then I fail to see how the new system can stunt it.

smillan_31 wrote:
Given that the only roleplayers I know who fit my style of roleplaying are scattered across the country I'm highly interested in an internet-based digital game table. The thing that has stopped me so far is how complicated it'll be to set up on my own, so if with 4e WoTC can give me the tools to do that and still have a game that runs pretty easily I'll heartily thank them for it.


If it works, I'll also probably try that out. I'm not exactly downing in a sea of players over here, so anything that can get more of us togther is a-okay by me.

But how close will it come to the traditional pencil and paper version of playing? That is the question I really want to know.
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Ragr
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spot on David. The rules are the tools (such poetry), we the players are the craftsmen/women who bring it to life.

There is no doubt in my mind that 4e will become more of a tactical sim with a role-playing element attached for good measure. The presentation posted on you tube highlights this when one of the presenters mentions "clearly defined roles for characters, just like the members of a sports team". Well, it sounds like if your kicker (healer) can't play you're well and truly stuffed.

Personally, I'm not that bothered if wotc stop supporting Greyhawk. The stuff on this site, including OJ, is infinitely superior.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragr wrote:

Personally, I'm not that bothered if wotc stop supporting Greyhawk. The stuff on this site, including OJ, is infinitely superior.


Thank you for your support of the work of fans here and on OJ.
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smillan_31
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidBedlam wrote:
I don't see why the rule set should define the way in which games are played. I'm sure that is will just as possible to role-play deep characters in fourth edition as it was in past editions.

I've been reading a few of the early adventures that I've downloaded from Paizo, and some of them appear to be "Here's a dungeon. Loot it!". Now if adventures like those can inspire good roleplaying, then I fail to see how the new system can stunt it.


I'm not saying that it has to be that way. It's not like there weren't plenty of monty-haul power-gamer types in the first two editions and the basic ruleset, but I think the way in which 4e is designed and more importantly presented is going to influence the way people play and attract a certain type of gamer. Honestly I think more people want to play D&D as a pen and paper version of WoW so I'm not going to blame Wizards for going in that direction. Like you said I think it will be easily possible to role-play deep characters in 4e, provided I and my players don't hate the ruleset, which I really don't imagine will be the case. Heck you could have a great role-playing game with deep characters based off the BEER Engine if you have the right people.

I don't think a virtual gaming table is never going to beat sitting around a real table with friends and enjoying a good game. Players won't be able to hear me have the npc's talk with a Keoish accent or see me act out the enraged bugbear charging them with a morningstar, but you take what you can get game with your old buddies.
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Vormaerin
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WotC is cancelling Living Greyhawk because they don't have any choice. Apparently 4e is completely incompatible with 3e, so there is no 'upgrade' option like when the campaign went from 3.0 to 3.5. Now, they could have shut down LG and started a new LG. But they chose to start Living FR instead. They probably felt it would be more popular and certainly more likely to generate cross promotion with their product line.
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MerricB
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

weaver95 wrote:
WoTC has a rather large and enthusiastic fan base in GH. Look at LG - thousands of players from around the world, all of whom are dedicated enough to show up at weekend events and conventions (and pay to attend).


Err... if we'd had "Living Realms" from the beginning of 3e rather than "Living Greyhawk", then I think we'd see a similar turnout. People play Living Greyhawk not because of the setting, but much more because it's D&D (and the only ongoing OP model).

Good material sells, regardless of the setting.

Of the three Paizo APs, only one of them (Age of Worms) is even remotely Greyhawk in setting.

4e will be interesting; it may even be good or very good. Regardless of the edition, I'll keep playing in my version of the World of Greyhawk. With any luck, I'll get to playtest 4e... in my World of Greyhawk. My Ulek campaign is moving towards its conclusion... so I think when it's done, it'll be the perfect time to see if my players and I prefer 4e.

And I'm going to be very happy with my 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which give me most of what I need for Greyhawk.

Cheers!
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Vormaerin
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know that its clear that the majority of folks playing in Living Greyhawk are setting neutral. I am sure that quite a few are. But hasn't there been other Living Campaigns that weren't nearly as successful?

Btw, in addition to Age of Worms the Savage Tide is set in Greyhawk (though not the Flanaess). And Shackled City was retconned into it (not very well).

Its entirely possible that Living FR will do very well. But I think that many of the content producers and players won't necessarily jump to the new campaign. But its hard to say, really, since most of the RPGA folks I know are known because of GH connections first...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have only once concern with the whole affair... attempts to influence/close fan sites.

4e... go get em WOTC. Its your business plan. My group is made up of professionals & career folk who have not the time nor inclination to learn new rules. They want to get togeather, game, and enjoy themselves.

Ending Living GH... not what I would have done, but they are your customers to loose WOTC.

Forgotten Realms... some people like it, I hope they have fun.

No more GH! well I have made peace with this in the 10 years that we havent had official content.

This brings me to Dungeon/Dragon and Paizo. They were successful by all accounts. Subscribership was up, so I understand. But the license was not renewed?!?! Dungeon and Dragon were the only places I found new products. I dont visit Wizards.com and look for new releases, and the local B&N still has 3.0 PHBs on the rack. Nothing new. So, as a customer, WOTC has cut me off from what I might want (their products) and what i do (did) want... new GH material from Paizo.

Gleemax... the ending of the Paizo license... It has been discussed ad nauseum on this site and others what this might mean. But if it means that WOTC leaves me and CF! alone forever... I will take that.

That is really all I want from WOTC.

I can get all I need of GH right here. I would like to see some more comprehensive things in the future from some of the fine folks here.
This site and the folks here are an endless source of adventure ideas, and my gamers seem to love them.


If I want alternate content, I am getting the new Paizo AP.
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MerricB
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vormaerin wrote:
I don't know that its clear that the majority of folks playing in Living Greyhawk are setting neutral. I am sure that quite a few are. But hasn't there been other Living Campaigns that weren't nearly as successful?


No. Not run by Wizards.

You've had Living Force (star wars), so utterly different game.
You've had Living City which was pre-3E.
There have been RPGA-enabled campaigns like Living Arcanis, but they weren't actual Wizards campaigns.

Living Greyhawk is the only 3e Living Campaign run by Wizards.

Quote:
Btw, in addition to Age of Worms the Savage Tide is set in Greyhawk (though not the Flanaess). And Shackled City was retconned into it (not very well).


Yeah, although all three APs are "set" in Greyhawk - I've run AoW, and I'm in the middle of running the other two at present - the only one that actually is in the Flanaess is AoW. Shackled City is in somewhere we've never visited, and the only reference in Savage Tide to "core" Greyhawk is Tamoachan - and that's hardly core Greyhawk! (Classic module, yes, but it's on the fringes of the known world).

Quote:
Its entirely possible that Living FR will do very well. But I think that many of the content producers and players won't necessarily jump to the new campaign. But its hard to say, really, since most of the RPGA folks I know are known because of GH connections first...


I think *more* people play Living Greyhawk because it's the best way they can play D&D. I played Living Greyhawk for a couple of years, and it wasn't as good as my home campaigns. The restrictions in single session adventures with only a handful of encounters really begin to shine through. So, LG wasn't really for me or my players.

However, there are those who really enjoy the community aspects of the LG game, and I think they'll do just as well with a LR game.

Cheers,
Merric
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MerricB
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This brings me to Dungeon/Dragon and Paizo. They were successful by all accounts. Subscribership was up, so I understand. But the license was not renewed?!?! Dungeon and Dragon were the only places I found new products.


Yeah. Dungeon and Dragon will now be made by Wizards in an online version. Until the end of the year, you'll be able to get it free from the Wizards site. After that, you'll need to subscribe to get it.

Issue #151 (the first online issue) sounds fantastic already. Why? A 3e conversion of the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth...

Quote:
Iggwilv’s Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
By Edward Albert, Ari Marmell, and C.A. Suleiman

One of the most ambitious projects to ever hit Dungeon, the classic 1st Edition module is freshly updated to D&D 3.5. Plus, the adventure features a new prelude and a follow-up adventure that takes the PCs to Tsojcanth’s lair.


From my point of view, digital Dungeon magazine is better. Cheaper, more timely, and I don't have to devote more shelf space to storing it.

Cheers,
Merric
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Anced_Math
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but the "team," assembled so far does not seem quite as capable as the old group. The intro letters on the web site did not really stir the imagination. I will subscribe initially, and I agree the Tsojcanth is intiguing, but my expectations are fairly low.

But if I understand it correctly, you loose all access to material you have paid for if your subscriptions lapses. That works for a game, but not for a game resource. '

Again, if we could get a few of those at CF! to write more complete works (not better quality, just more complete) I would have all the GH material ready to play that I could ever want.
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MerricB
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anced_Math wrote:
But if I understand it correctly, you loose all access to material you have paid for if your subscriptions lapses. That works for a game, but not for a game resource. '


From what I gather, at the end of every month, the articles published during the month will be gathered together into a pdf "magazine" which you can then download, and you'll also be able to print the individual articles.

You can save the issues to your harddrive. You won't lose access to it.

We'll get a better view of it in October.

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerricB wrote:
From my point of view, digital Dungeon magazine is better. Cheaper, more timely, and I don't have to devote more shelf space to storing it.


I'll grant you that.

But, there is something to be said about having paper version to hold in your hands and leaf through over and over. Maybe I'm just a luddite at heart. I'll probably feel better after I've smashed a few stocking frames. Laughing

On the plus side: The first issue has Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Graz’zt and The Ecology of the Death Knight. That sounds pretty cool.
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Anced_Math
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, between Tsojacnth, Grazzt, and Death Knights, they have set themselves up for great success or terrible failure.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerricB wrote:
the only reference in Savage Tide to "core" Greyhawk is Tamoachan - and that's hardly core Greyhawk! (Classic module, yes, but it's on the fringes of the known world).


Well, it had Iggwilv.
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MerricB
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
MerricB wrote:
the only reference in Savage Tide to "core" Greyhawk is Tamoachan - and that's hardly core Greyhawk! (Classic module, yes, but it's on the fringes of the known world).


Well, it had Iggwilv.


Yeah, just got that issue. :)

The APs don't really feel like Greyhawk to me, though I really like them. There are some things that are Greyhawk-like, and others that come from somewhere else entirely.

Strangely enough, the most Greyhawk-like adventures to me from Wizards have been the Red Hand of Doom, and Sons of Gruumsh (the latter being FR!) Go figure. :) Sons I set in the Pomarj, and we had a lot of fun with it.

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerricB wrote:
The APs don't really feel like Greyhawk to me, though I really like them. There are some things that are Greyhawk-like, and others that come from somewhere else entirely.


Things I like most about the APs were detailed info on a few GH locations that had previously been very sketchy. We've had Diamond Lake, Istivin, Alhaster, Exag, and Spinecastle (plus an earlier article on Hardby). Plus a couple of stat blocks for other places (Eru Tovar, Tonnsburg) .All interesting stuff to build on, tweak, or tone down at your option. Sadly I assume that the end of LG will also mean the end of GH content on WotC as well. Shame as I am building a cool home made gazeteer with all the information.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this on the Wizards of the Coast site Dungeons and Dragons official game site (under the Dragon Link, then columns, deisign and development, and then monster.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We’ll not only give you peeks at what’s forthcoming, but also the “how” and “why.”

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to dndinsider@wizards.com.

4th Edition dragons are among the most dynamic, exciting monsters in the game—as they should be. They’re different from each other, across categories (the metallics aren’t like the chromatics), across colors (reds and whites don’t have all the same attacks), and across age categories (fear the ancient dragons). Here’s just a taste of what a fight against an ancient dragon might feel like:

On the dragon’s turn, the first thing it does is burst out in an inferno of flame, searing every PC within 25 feet—a free action. Then, with a standard action, it slashes out at the fighter and the cleric with its two front claws (even though they’re both 20 feet away). As another free action, it uses its tail to slap the rogue, who was trying to sneak up behind it, and pushes her back 10 feet. It’s getting angry at the wizard, so it uses a special ability to take another standard action: it spits a ball of fire at the wizard, setting him on fire. It has a move action left, which it uses to fly into a better position for its breath weapon. That ends the dragon’s turn.


It’s the fighter’s turn. He charges the dragon and manages to land a solid blow, dropping the dragon down below half its hit points. Oh—that gives the dragon the opportunity use its breath weapon as an immediate action. A huge cone of fire bursts from the dragon’s mouth, engulfing all four PCs. But at least the dragon is below 500 hit points!


Now the rogue moves around to flank with the fighter. Ordinarily, that would let the dragon use its tail slap again as an immediate action, but the dragon has used its immediate action already. That’s lucky for the rogue, who actually gets to make an attack this round! Unfortunately, she fails to hit the dragon’s AC of 49.


The wizard fails to put out the fire, so he takes more damage. Worse yet, the dragon’s breath scoured away the wizard’s fire resistance, so he takes the full amount. He blasts the dragon with a ray of freezing cold, but this isn’t 3rd Edition. The dragon takes normal damage, but it’s not enough to slow it down.


Finally, the cleric is up. Calling on the power of her god, she swings her halberd at the dragon—a critical hit! The damage isn’t bad, but even better, the wizard gets a nice surge of healing power.

He’s going to need it—it’s the dragon’s turn again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were similiar links for race, class, and power source (where the character gets their ability to excel and succeed) but these section really were not that informative. I included the one above primarly because it gives folks an idea of combat. Now we don't know the game mechanics behind things so I will keep my opinion to myself other than this statement:

Feels like they decided to push the power play even more than with 3rd edition, which was a lot compared to 2nd and 1st edtion D&D. Some people will like it, others will not. I'm guessing I'll like some game mechanics but dislike the power play. I prefer very slow advancement and take the time to explore the character's personality and background. After all, twenty years from now, when I'm swapping D&D stories with my friends and family, it will be the roleplaying, personality, and background and how they were worked into the game as we played that I will remember. It's moments like these......

1. Such as when Eileen screamed at the site of a manticore.

2. Such as when she was killed in White Plume Mountain by a troglodyte (around 6th level)and now she's 11th level and deathly afraid of them and will be forever;

3. Or when she saw a larva like creature crawling across the town street in Ravenloft and screamed "Ariel, we got bugs", fully expecting the paladin to drop her battle and come over and squash the bugs for her.

To me, that's what D&D will always be about. The great adventures at the time, the roleplaying and laughter at the game table, and telling stories 20 years later.
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MerricB
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulN6 wrote:
MerricB wrote:
The APs don't really feel like Greyhawk to me, though I really like them. There are some things that are Greyhawk-like, and others that come from somewhere else entirely.


Things I like most about the APs were detailed info on a few GH locations that had previously been very sketchy. We've had Diamond Lake, Istivin, Alhaster, Exag, and Spinecastle (plus an earlier article on Hardby). Plus a couple of stat blocks for other places (Eru Tovar, Tonnsburg) .All interesting stuff to build on, tweak, or tone down at your option. Sadly I assume that the end of LG will also mean the end of GH content on WotC as well. Shame as I am building a cool home made gazeteer with all the information.


Was Exag and Spinecastle part of the AP? I don't think Exag was, not sure about Spinecastle.

Personally, I think the best GH material in Dungeon has been *outside* the AP.

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eileen, I know it's an extreme example, being a dragon and probably a very powerful one, but the demonstration of 4e combat you posted sounds truly horrible. It certainly seems powerplay to the max.

The more I learn about 4e, the less I think I'm going to like it. This may be an edition too far for me and my gaming friends and we've played through them all up to now.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ragr

Yea that's pretty much how it left me feeling as well. All power play no substance. I think the example would have been better if they had given us an idea of how the characters were able to achieve their actions, such as the fighter taking the dragon down to half (or more) hit points in one blow (by my calculations it would have over a 1000 HP). It would have been nice to get an understanding of how the cleric healed without taking an action to do it as well. I'm sure they are new abilities worked into the classes, that in itself is fine, but as the ad reads, it did nothing to attract me, only alienate me further. Heck if I want to be alienated I'll take a trip through Expedition to the Barrier Peaks module.

It seems that several people feel that D&D is being directed towards bringing in a younger crowd who spends their time playing a lot of computer games, and as a result are use to pushing their games to extremes (kinda like new special effects in a video game, if they are flashy enough people will buy). I feel like that is what they are doing with D&D, giving us new special effects, but first we need to buy the game system because it isn't compatible with whatever the current popular video game lines are (yea, I'm that far behind the times, I can't even name the latest video game system without asking my daughter, I guess I'll go ask....Hang on, I'll be right back......

She says it's Wii, but beyond that she says didn't know because she prefers to do things old school, like D&D, Guess I raised her right as far as I'm concerned.

3rd edition and 3. pushed things further than I would have liked but not to the point where I wasn't able or willing to deal with it. Now that the books for 3.5 are winding down, I'll finish off my collection and skip a few that I know I don't want at all (heck I have a few I consider worthless to me already), then I will begin to incorporate the information attempting to make it feel like 1st edition as much as possible. I'll start with the prestige classes.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dragon combat did sound like powerplay, but I also get the impression that this particular combat features a very powerful monster and characters. Other than that, it really doiens't tlell you much of how things work, and neither does any of the other features. Some things sounds very intriguing, such as weapon realted attack abilities. What? A polearm is now actually worth a damn?! Shocked Happy That makes me interested a bit. Level appropriate racial powers peak my interst slightly less, yet still sound somewhat interesting.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that's an example of high level play then I'm sure it's toned DOWN from 3.5 play. I'm sure there are prestige class ability and feat builds currently that could make this encounter look easy in comparison.
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GVDammerung
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the power curve can only go up. The competition is rightly or wrongly percieved to be WoW and video games - competing for time and for dollars. I personally believe this view of the landscape is flawed and that tabletop RPGS cannot win against MMORPGS and video games, but I don't expect a different view to pervail. Thus, 4e will represent some degree of powerup from 3x, IMO.

IMO, we will see 5e in 2012 or 2013. In other words, 5e will debut 6 years after 4e. It will, I believe, be the last printed version of the game. Wotc is beginning the transition to an online medium with 4e. They will advance the ball to half court with 5e. And 6e will be fully digital. Unless 4 or 5e fails so miserably that the hobby becomexs imperiled. I don't expect that so I think they will get to try their had at a completely digital game in 6e.

I will not be their target audience by that time and I suspect I have slipped from the target demographic already.
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