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4e Points Of Light & Greyhawk
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: 4e Points Of Light & Greyhawk Reply with quote

In 4th edition there is no default campaign anymore, but there is a default assumption about the world that players will be adventuring in.

ďThe Dungeons & Dragons game assumes many things about its setting: The world is populated by a variety of intelligent races, strange monsters lurk on other planes, ancient empires have left ruins across the face of the world, and so on. But one of the new key conceits about the D&D world is simply this: Civilized folk live in small, isolated points of light scattered across a big, dark, dangerous world.Ē

Please see the complete article here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070829a

It isnít a stretch to imagine that the first campaign world for the new edition, the Forgotten Realms, is going to get a major reset to fit this new vision of D&D. Already there are rumors that a spell plague will change the face of Faerun.

With that in mind, how would you reset the World of Greyhawk to match this basic assumption of the new edition?

Bryan Blumklotz
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't fit well in my opinion. The concept reminds me of Warhammer actually. It can fit Faerun which seems to be geographically more spread out to begin with, but with Greyhawk in many of the more 'game developed' areas there is a long history of human migration in all directions and then empires and feudal monarchies. Bascially, the Flanaess is still a dangerous place but across the middle its been explored and settled sufficiently. This points of light concept could work in the northern areas like Blackmoor, the Bandit Lands, Stonehold...or maybe the southern extremes too, but across the middle no.

So to answer the question how would you reset Greyhawk to fit this vision? It would have to go back to about the point of the migrations, when kingdoms were first forming. That would be a rewind of of several hundred years. Now to move forward like FR is likely to do, it would take a hell of a lot in my opinion. The Great Kingdom is fractured enough to maybe qualify as renewed dangerous wilderness, but Keoland and Furyondy are stable countrysides as is much of the Greyhawk Domain. It would have to take an end to alot of the geopolitical landscape and a reversion to a dark age isolationism of key regions.
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: The Long Winter Reply with quote

Granted, my campaign will continue without a reset, but if I were going to do it here is my idea.

Mine Greyhawk would not reset by a catastrophe involving magic or a victory for evil, but the release of the god Vatun's wrath upon the world when he breaks free of his prison:

The Long Winter.

Rather than a repeat of Greyhawk Wars and changing things by fiat I would make this a campaign for my players so they could affect what is saved and what is lost. In essence it would be an Adventure Path...

It would start with the PCs doing what PCs do best, kicking down doors and looting some dungeon. Unfortunately this act sets off a chain of events
that releases the imprisoned god Vatun.

From then on it would be their job to try and save as much of the world from the North God's rage...

Cold snaps and marching glaciers would devastate the North, forcing a migration of evil humanoids and humans into the southern lands. For those in living in the south, staple crops would be wiped out and famine would grip the land.

Meanwhile, the North God fueled by his followers cries for vengeance against the Old One's trickery (see 5 Shall Be One and Howl From The North) seeks out and destroys Iuz on the material plane and in turn dies in the attempt. The fury release by the death of both gods creates the perfect storm that not even Telchur expected... after all it was his plan to drive Vatun insane so that he would spread the icy realm south and take all the blame... This leads to a war between gods in the "heavens"

Depending on the PCs actions the City of Greyhawk is either a bastion of light in the north or a ruin to repopulate when the new campaign starts.

Flash forward 70 years.

A new and violent world has been hacked out of the southern reaches (the jungles of the Amedio and Hepmonaland). After a bloody war with the Scarlet Brotherhood and constant skirmishing with Olman/Suloise barbarians. New kingdoms spring up from the blood, sweat, and tears. At at night the stories of of the old kingdoms would be told and the old survivors would get misty eyed for their ice covered homelands.

Reports filtering down from the north claim that the Long Winter is slowly releasing its grip and the reclamation begins. Are you willing to win back your birthright in the north?

PROs:
* The long complicated history Greyhawk becomes a ready source of old lore for the PCs to discover.
* A mini iceage allows complete freedom to reconfigure the physical aspects of the land as you see fit. Don't like a castle where it was? Gone. Want to keep something, you find a way to preserve it.
* A hostile world in the north to conquer. Barbarians and mega-fauna.
* If politics and intrigue are more your style, the machinations of the southern kingdoms is your new playground.
* The god war leaves the world with a smaller pantheon and no god is allowed to step on the material plane, ever.

CONs:
* This would require a whole new set of cartography for the campaign.
* While there would be familiar elements, much of what we know of GH would be gone.

Bryan Blumklotz
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weaver95
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anyone give me a brief synopis? I refuse to register as a D&D insider on that site just so I can read a single article.
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Saracenus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weaver95 wrote:
Can anyone give me a brief synopis? I refuse to register as a D&D insider on that site just so I can read a single article.


Weaver,

If you have a login for the WotC forums then you don't have to register, just use that username and password. Right now its free.

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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With its relatively tiny human and demihuman populations (tiny relative to medieval Europe), and its vast swathes of howling wilderness, I think it fits Greyhawk perfectly well. Obviously, Greyhawk has nation-states, but they seldom have much power over the monster-haunted wilderness.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I truly don't want to start an argument, but I've never seen it that way, mort. I realize the maps look to be pretty thickly populated (especially the recent Paizo maps), and I realize most of us probably play as though the Flanaess is thickly settled, but that's only as may be. Could this tendency perhaps be due to our modern minds projecting contemporary reality onto the setting? After all, in the modern world even the "wilderness" between towns is filled with houses, farms, and such.

In an old Dragon article (please don't ask me which one - I can't remember), Gygax described exactly the situation suggested by WotC. Since then (and I think it was in the very early '80s), I've played as though the settled areas were relatively isolated. The "safe zone" extends to a mere few miles around each settlement. As justification for this, I cite the numerous random encounter tables from the early days, few of which listed that many "civilized" encounters - most were with monsters.

Whether my memory and observations are correct or not, it seems to me that it would be a simple matter to adopt such a model. One could easily rule that yes, there are roads, towns, patrols, and so forth, but the world is only safe in or near the towns. Monsters rule the outlying areas, which is why caravans and other travellers always travel armed and in the company of guards. One might encounter certain logical problems with such an arrangement, but I should think they could be easily dealt with. Not only does the "points of light" model mesh with 4e (spit!), but it also provides a justification for monster raids on towns, ruins that no one has ever discovered, inaccuracies in the "knowledge" of NPCs, and various other common game motifs. It also provides answers for those who wonder why the various figures for Greyhawk's population are so low and why so few have travelled beyond the borders of the Flanaess. In short, the "points of light" model provides ample opportunity to incorporate an element of mystery back into GH.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read this article as well a few days ago and here is the impression it left with me....

The idea in itself I liked, it reminded me more of how 1st edition was played in the late 70's and early 80's, a little more rustic feel.

As a DM, I eventually wondered how merchants could travel from one country to the other and even survive, so when working on Greyhawk, I made things safer in regards of travel and the random encounter tables I created reflected that.

Once you got into a mountain range, desert, or other harsher area, things changed drastically, I guess there is a reason why people take the long way around.

I was trying to figure out how I would incorporate the idea of Points of Light and Darkness into Greyhawk. The best I could come up with was placing several communities within a stone's throw distance of the larger ones already presented on the map, with adjoining roadways still remaining safe. The lands in between these communities would be harsher (but not incredibly so). It would be tough to work into Greyhawk being much of it is wall to wall nations, unless one adds "pockets of monster hostilities" between nations and even within. Of coarse this doesn't mesh real well with the current development of the world.

Personally, I'm all for a rewind on time anyway.....then good authors could build it up and include all the historical events which have already occurred, up to its current standing. Of coarse to achieve this means that several books would have to be written, each adding to the timeline so to speak, until the current Flanaess is reached. Perhaps another project for Oerth Journal and Canonfire?

The other option would be to make a significant change like you suggested for FR and zoom the timeline forward. I think this is the approach they would take. Either that or if they did anything with Greyhawk they would leave the Points of Light and Dark out, because they would have presumably did it already with FR and Eberron, and by the time they got around to Greyhawk, they would want to do something different anyway. I think this is the most likely outcome.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One only needs to look to the early modules of 1E Greyhawk to see PoL is a stretch for GH. Tomb of Horrors, Expedition to Barrier Peaks, White Plume Mt, Ghost Tower of Inverness, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, Hidden Shrines, Forgotten Temples, Lost Caverns...etc. Most of these are on the outskirts of the Flanaess' well defined core nation-states. The darkness is on the edges, surrounding the light. Its not points of light amid darkness. Later GH mods in 2E and the GHWars only emphasis the openess of the central Flanaess. Danger attacks from the edges inward, Iuz in the north, the Giants in the west, the Brotherhood in the south, barbarians in the NE, and so on.

I like the Long Winter idea and like I said the PoL could fit GH if you generally ignore the geopolitical backdrop that has dominated since EGG's GH.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bubbagump wrote:
I truly don't want to start an argument, but I've never seen it that way, mort. I realize the maps look to be pretty thickly populated (especially the recent Paizo maps), and I realize most of us probably play as though the Flanaess is thickly settled, but that's only as may be. Could this tendency perhaps be due to our modern minds projecting contemporary reality onto the setting? After all, in the modern world even the "wilderness" between towns is filled with houses, farms, and such.

In an old Dragon article (please don't ask me which one - I can't remember), Gygax described exactly the situation suggested by WotC. Since then (and I think it was in the very early '80s), I've played as though the settled areas were relatively isolated. The "safe zone" extends to a mere few miles around each settlement. As justification for this, I cite the numerous random encounter tables from the early days, few of which listed that many "civilized" encounters - most were with monsters.

Whether my memory and observations are correct or not, it seems to me that it would be a simple matter to adopt such a model. One could easily rule that yes, there are roads, towns, patrols, and so forth, but the world is only safe in or near the towns. Monsters rule the outlying areas, which is why caravans and other travellers always travel armed and in the company of guards. One might encounter certain logical problems with such an arrangement, but I should think they could be easily dealt with. Not only does the "points of light" model mesh with 4e (spit!), but it also provides a justification for monster raids on towns, ruins that no one has ever discovered, inaccuracies in the "knowledge" of NPCs, and various other common game motifs. It also provides answers for those who wonder why the various figures for Greyhawk's population are so low and why so few have travelled beyond the borders of the Flanaess. In short, the "points of light" model provides ample opportunity to incorporate an element of mystery back into GH.


Gotta say I have to agree with all of this. When I read the WotC article I loved the idea and can't wait to see the mechanics of making this a part of the world. Adapting it for Greyhawk shouldn't be too difficult. Overland travel would become more dangerous and the setting would become more mysterious but I think these changes will make GH truer to its gaming roots.

Let's not forget that little moathouse not far from a peaceful, rustic village called Hommlet and the massive temple complex a few miles further on. There's no better example of the islands of light idea and when I played ToEE, Verbobonc and the help it offered felt a long, long way away from Hommlet.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm more inclined to agree with rasgon and bubbagump, myself.

Sure, there are "civilized" countries, but even these have populations of orcs and goblins constantly living under their noses, skilled at raiding civilized areas in spite of the best efforts of human patrols to stop them.

Some lands, like Furyondy and Veluna, are safer, but even these are constantly plagued by bandits and goblins. These individual bands are not a major threat to the cities or well-patrolled roads, but they're a perennial hazard to smaller bands of travelers and merchant caravans.

For me, it's utterly ludicrous to believe that you could ever "clear out" a given area-the monsters will be back sooner or later, unless there is a clear and concerted effort of mass settlement. And the mountains and marshes are even worse-for every hill giant steading and orc den that is cleared out and destroyed, chances are there are five more out there just waiting for their moment. And for every adventuring band that succeeds in its goals, there are four more that die horrible, screaming deaths and are never seen again.

To me, the countries of Greyhawk are patchworks of light and darkness to varying degrees, as are the wilderness areas. Some areas-Celadon Forest, Furyondy-are more light than dark, while others-Suss Forest, Vast Swamp-are more dark than light, but patches of darkness exist in the first, and patches of light in the second.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well clearly Greyhawk would still need some kind of adjustment, especially if they seem to think Faerun needs some kind of upheaval to make this grand vision work. I still see Faerun as more wilderness than the Flanaess by far.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read all of the posts here yet, so this is only a response to basic thread.

The only way I would "reset" WoG for the new 4E "points of light" styel would be to go back in time, back to the post-Cataclysm/Great Migration era, when there were no nations as we know them now.

I don't see doing this, especially since I am not going to switch to 4E, but that's what I'd do.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saracenus wrote:
Granted, my campaign will continue without a reset, but if I were going to do it here is my idea.

Mine Greyhawk would not reset by a catastrophe involving magic or a victory for evil, but the release of the god Vatun's wrath upon the world when he breaks free of his prison:

The Long Winter. . . . . .


I really like the idea of a Vatun Iuz showdown and the resulting Long Winter.

mortellan wrote:
One only needs to look to the early modules of 1E Greyhawk to see PoL is a stretch for GH. Tomb of Horrors, Expedition to Barrier Peaks, White Plume Mt, Ghost Tower of Inverness, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, Hidden Shrines, Forgotten Temples, Lost Caverns...etc. Most of these are on the outskirts of the Flanaess' well defined core nation-states. The darkness is on the edges, surrounding the light. Its not points of light amid darkness. Later GH mods in 2E and the GHWars only emphasis the openess of the central Flanaess. Danger attacks from the edges inward, Iuz in the north, the Giants in the west, the Brotherhood in the south, barbarians in the NE, and so on.

I like the Long Winter idea and like I said the PoL could fit GH if you generally ignore the geopolitical backdrop that has dominated since EGG's GH.


I agree with Mort on the PoL thing. The only argument for PoL fitting GH is the extremely low population figures. Given that the population figures are so low for the level of civilization demonstrated in the Flaness, I don't see this as much actual support for the PoL idea at all. In practice, as Mort points out, the darkness is at the edges of some significant civilization ie light.

The PoL, however, is supported by the canon population figures all the same, even while the darkness is on the edge practically, so I guess either position is equally supportable according to taste. My taste runs contra to the PoL.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, having read (or at least skimmed through) the posts, here's my thoughts on this whole PoL and Greyhawk.

I don't think any major revision is necessary in the way that I run WoG to fit this PoL vision. IMC, I have that some nations, such as Furyondy, Veluna, Keoland and Nyrond are relatively safe. More heavily populated, better pratrolled, etc. This keeps monster and humanoid populations low, and cuts down banditry. These places still aren't perfectly safe, however. The less populated nations get increasingly more dangerous, and fit more in with PoL. And places that have experienced a great deal of turmoil or are "wilderness" areas to begin with are escpecially well-fitted to PoL (such as Geoff, Iuz, the Barrens, etc.). IMC, no revision would even be necessary.

I know that conflicts a bit with what I said in my earlier post. The way I see it is that some areas are already there, and some are further from the PoL concept. I wouldn't put the WORLD in such a concept, and will not throw out the old (especially with 20+ years worth of game history in WoG) just to fit WotC's view of what a campaign world should be.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is mentioned in the article really seems to be just generalizations, not a round hole that every square peg campaign world must be smashed into.

What I do think is good about the generalizations is the lack of communication between even neighboring towns. Common folk simply do not have the luxury of traveling, and most have only ever been to the next nearest village, if that. They have to work every day of their lives to eek out a meager existence. Nobles may travel, but usually only to visit family or other nobles, and they travel well guarded. The only people who consistently travel are merchants and nomads by virtue of their trade of lifestyle. The only others you are going to find on the roads are lawless folk not welcome in most communities and who prey upon travelers(wealthy or otherwise). There will be the odd traveler here and there, but that is not going to be a common thing. And then you have the adventurers...

These generalizations do not sound like any specific campaign world- they should sound like ALL of the fantasy campaign worlds. To often people apply modern ideas of community to what a campaign world is like. Safe travel from place to place is an everyday thing for us, but this is not so in a roughly medieval world. We have social services, but in a medieval world there is no welfare, and even in a medieval fantasy world, the goodly churches can do only so much. If you do not work, you starve, so people work. If you get robbed, you may not have money or tools to ply your trade or buy food, and so you starve to death, or resort to banditry to survive, and the long arm of the law extends only a short ways from the walls of the nearest town. Some folks might like that Errol Flynn Robin Hood feel to their campaigns, but in my games, in my Greyhawk, the world is a harsh place where good folk down on their luck may be forced to make tough choices in order to survive. This aspect of everyday life is often not played up enough in most campaign material, including adventures.

And so I give a thumbís up to the generalizations in the article due to the darkening of the mood that they imply.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys. I am not advocating that we chuck the nearly 25 years of Greyhawk History here. Hell I plan to continue my campaign in the wild coast as is, in either 3e or 4e.

This is a mental exercise asking if you were going to remake the World of Greyhawk into tiny, tiny points of light in a sea of darkness... how would you do it.

Quite frankly, the argument that current Greyhawk already fits this model is laughable at best as already pointed out by Mortellan. So give me your best shot for a reboot of Greyhawk as you would do it, not as WotC would do it.

Get creative and let your mind wander a bit out of the rut we have all been in and see what comes out... you might be surprised at what you come up with... heck, at the very least some interesting ideas might come out of it that can be scavenged for other less extreme campaigns.

Remember this is not a call to revamp Greyhawk, its just to see what people would come up with if it were to be done...

Thanks,

Bryan Blumklotz
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the main sticky point of the PoL article is the concept of no nations of any real size. As I recall, PoL spoke of maybe a fortified castle-city, where a local king/duke/baron/etc. rules a small area, and a few outlying communities, and so on. WoG already has established nations, however lightly populated and/or patrolled. This is what I see as the biggest difference between WoG as it exists and the PoL concept.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree there. No nations of any real size is rather unrealistic. I already have "points of light" in my campaign world. They of course vary in "brilliance" from area to area. The more civilized/good areas have larger points of light, while the more evil/lawless areas have smaller points of light. No surprises there.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A certain level of PoL is very appropriate for Greyhawk... and most fantasy campaigns that don't go the Eberron 'magic as technology' way. A medievalesque culture would tend towards that anyway. Even relatively populated places like England had plenty of "wilderness" for dangerous things to lurk in.. the dartmoors, various forests, the mountains, and just the roads between towns. Look at all the folk tales and legends of nasties lurking in the wilds around these settlements or even in them (the vampire of berwick, say).

And that's England, a relatively centralized and densely populated medieval nation. A model more like the Kievan Rus or something would be even more to this style.

However, I do think that they are overdoing it in a cliche way, from the brief reading given there. We'll see.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It occurs to me after reading all the posts here that all we're arguing about is really just a matter of perception. Some of us see the spaces between GH's cities as howling wilderness, while others see them as relatively safe - but we're all talking about exactly the same materials. It occurs to me, though, that none of us would argue with the possibility of danger in those spaces. Even Greyhawk City has tribes of lizardfolk just a few miles away in the swamp. There are lots of other dangers there, too. The Cairn Hills just outside of Greyhawk's walls are chock full of badness, and much of it is far from civilized. Pick any given city or town in the Flanaess and I bet any one of us could find significant "darkness" within just a few miles.

But since you wanted this to be a forum about what we'd change to accommodate the PoL doctrine, my answer is this: nothing. I really don't think it's necessary to change anything significantly to accommodate PoL or, conversely, to deny it. There's plenty of darkness and danger to go around in the World of Greyhawk, and that's why we all love it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The interesting thing about this is how they are going to connect this with the D&D assumptions about resources. Trade is critical to having the kinds of resources that D&D assumes. Tin (For pewter, for instance) is not generally widespread. Most of europe got their tin from Cornwall. Many other resources are going to be scarce.

Craftsmen would be pretty constrained also. Most villages aren't generally self sufficient in all crafts and certainly don't have the demand that will support full fledged elite craftsmen. Without significant trade and communal accumulation of resources, most parts of the world will have a hard time supporting a substantial standing military or specialists. Even the "kingdoms" they mention probably wouldn't have everything. Its hard to see a lot of plate armor and the like being developed in such a world.

Third edition assumes you pretty much have access to masterwork quickly and better than that not long after. I wonder if 4e will as well. Or will they just ignore the implications of their PoL structure....
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saracenus wrote:

This is a mental exercise asking if you were going to remake the World of Greyhawk into tiny, tiny points of light in a sea of darkness... how would you do it.

Remember this is not a call to revamp Greyhawk, its just to see what people would come up with if it were to be done...


The approach that I would take is actually pretty similar to the one that I will take...

My campaign is currently in 573 CY. The campaign plot will pretty much follow canon up until the Greyhawk Wars, but will then take a left turn.
Which is what I would do...rewind to the time of the Wars and then move forward assuming the outcome was not so balanced.

Just prior to the wars Thrommel will return, but his return will spark a civil war of succession in Furyondy, possibly leading to intervention from Veluna, so that at the time of the outbreak of the Wars a devestated Furyondy will be in no position to resist and Iuz's gains will be more significant and more lasting.

The Shield Lands will be erased. Nyrond will implode. The Great Kingdom will break into independent, animi-run feifs. There will be no Great Crusade, no Flight of Fiends, and Iuz's gains will be permanent. Perrenland will be officially neutral but many suspect that its leaders are secretly under the sway of Iuz. Veluna will slip into fanatacism and inquisition as it defends itself from the horrors of the north and the raiders of the west. Many nobles of Furyondy will forswear their oaths to the King in return for aid from Veluna, further fractioning the landscape.

Only Keoland will stand as a stable bastion, but its cohesiveness will start to weaken. As all its client states face challenges from the wilderness, the politics of aid will be endlessly debated. The Scarlett Brotherhood gains in the south will act as a threat, keeping troops around important cities, rather than helping out in the provinces and client states, which will slowly dim.

With a considerably worse end to the greyhawk wars, with far greater gains for chaos and evil, the world will be effectively reduced to the PoL paradigm.
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Kirt, that is essentially what I would do. It all boils down to breaking up the theme of 'balance' in Greyhawk and letting evil have the advantage. As an extreme there are a few adventures that can be perfect set ups for a PoL campaign, if one assumes the heroes LOSE. Vecna Lives (Vecna), Age of Worms (Kyuss), and Return of the Eight (Iggwilv, Tuerny) come to mind, I'm sure there are more.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the campaign worlds are PoL campaigns. A simple lack of communication ability is the main key to keeping it that way. There are no cell phones, radios, tv's, or computers. You have magical sendings, but those are rare and only available to spellcasters or the wealthy; certainly not local law enforcement or some rural lordling. The lands abound with criminals just because its a heck of a lot easier to be one than it is in the real modern world, plus it is often more necessary for survival.

PoL is just a pervading theme. Will it be the only option for 4e material to written in? Can't say as yet, as we are only getting snippets of info so far. It's Greyhawk folks. There are always exceptions to the rule of absolutes. Either way, the person who will choose to implement it or not is each individual dm, so is it really important to be discussing absolutes anyways? Another thing is that Points of Light is a simple conceptual buzzword that has a proscribed meaning attached to it. The 4e design notes are full of them. When you are bandying about dozens of ideas, buzzwords help cut down on misunderstandings and speeds things up(which is a good idea of course).

And another thing- this will only affect Greyhawk material if WotC actually writes some! Anybody care to hold their breath until that happens? Laughing
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