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    Canonfire :: View topic - St. Cuthburt is to Iuz what ________ is to Vecna
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    St. Cuthburt is to Iuz what ________ is to Vecna
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 13, 2008
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    Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:33 pm  
    St. Cuthburt is to Iuz what ________ is to Vecna

    Ok, so the Gods all have this interdenominational treaty. Nobody goes down and muddles around in the affairs of men and every bodies followers are left unmolested and unabused and everyones happy. The exception of this was St. Cuthburt of course because in order to maintain the balance someone had to join Iuz on the Prime Material.

    Now that Vecna has realized his (un)life long dream of hoards of followers babbling to themselves in the darkness while reading "inspirational" books about his life filled with nonsense trying to find some meaning in their own personal struggle through their dreary day to day lives.

    So, now that Venca has been elevated to Comic Book Super Villin status with a horde of psychotic sycophants singing blasphemes in his name in pretty much the same manner that the Iuz the (Good) Old (Boy) has, does this mean that there should be another God from the side of good step down to take his place to specifically battle Vecna in the way that St. Cuthburt was set about battleing (Good) Old (Boy) Wicked?

    If so, then who? (Or whom, what ever...)
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:22 pm  

    Vecna's primary nemesis is Iuz. On the good side, Delleb and Lydia are both deities with a strong emphasis on knowledge and truth and natural opponents of the god of evil and arcane secrets. I think Wee Jas's followers would have a strong degree of professional rivalry too, especially since Vecna has a habit of disguising his cults as churches of Wee Jas. He does the same thing with Boccob, but I can't imagine the Uncaring's followers worrying about it too much.

    In the Hand of the Revenant comic book, it was priests of Pholtus who were responsible for burning off Vecna's hand and eye.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:41 pm  

    I will second the idea that it is Pholtus that opposes Vecna as primary antagonist and for reasons beyond the graphic novel. There is a "nice" symetry here:

    Vecna doesn't like Iuz & Iuz doesn't like Vecna
    Iuz doesn't like St. Cuthbert & St. Cuthbert doesn't like Iuz
    St. Cuthbert doesn't like Pholtus & Pholtus doesn't like St. Cuthbert
    Pholtus doesn't like Vecna, and Vecna doesn't like Pholtus

    The bad guys don't like each other and the good guys don't like each other either!
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    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:48 pm  

    I like the idea of Pholtan Inquistors hunting down Vecnite cultists.

    I don't actually use Vecna as a god, but if I did, that's the way I'd do it.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 01, 2005
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    Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:31 am  

    I don't like treating Vecna as a deity. Therefore, his primary enemy should be PC's rather than other deities. By placing Vecna as a Banished Overlord or Ancient Evil rather than a god he becomes a boogey man. Even less tangible. In D&D the gods are real. There's no use denying it. Gods have a defined place in the universe, too well defined I'm afraid. The divine certitude of godhood also means a powerful villan, as a god, fits a niche as well. Consider this thread...

    Keeping Vecna a mystery means not making him a god. Or at least, not acknowledging it. The same formula was applied to Tharizdun until his status as a "Silent God" was confirmed. After that, he's become the "go to god" for mustache twisting evil cult leaders. Kill the gods or the mystery dies.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:17 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    In the Hand of the Revenant comic book, it was priests of Pholtus who were responsible for burning off Vecna's hand and eye.


    Any idea on were I can find a copy of this?

    rasgon wrote:
    I think Wee Jas's followers would have a strong degree of professional rivalry too, especially since Vecna has a habit of disguising his cults as churches of Wee Jas.


    Wee Jas also makes a good case considering her place as a Sueluise deity who sat in judgment of the dead. Glad you brought her up I hadn't really considered her before.

    rasgon wrote:
    Vecna's primary nemesis is Iuz.


    I don't know to much about the relationship between Iuz and Vecna as I have never read any of the Vecna modules. Could you clarify this for me as to why the are at odds with to one another? The wiki backs this up but it doesn't explain why.

    rasgon wrote:
    He does the same thing with Boccob, but I can't imagine the Uncaring's followers worrying about it too much.


    Yeah, I'd imagine that their reaction would probably be something along the lines of, "Yeah, they think we don't know about that. Oh well, it takes all kinds I guess. What ever floats your boat baby."

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I will second the idea that it is Pholtus that opposes Vecna as primary antagonist and for reasons beyond the graphic novel. There is a "nice" symetry here:

    Vecna doesn't like Iuz & Iuz doesn't like Vecna
    Iuz doesn't like St. Cuthbert & St. Cuthbert doesn't like Iuz
    St. Cuthbert doesn't like Pholtus & Pholtus doesn't like St. Cuthbert
    Pholtus doesn't like Vecna, and Vecna doesn't like Pholtus

    The bad guys don't like each other and the good guys don't like each other either!


    I like the idea from a themematic perspective but at the same time it seems to polarize things a bit to much. Thats always been the reason why I liked Greyhawk so much, that while there were obvious lines between good and evil, the conflict between Old Faith and New Faith was always there and even within the lines of faith there were disagreements. Think about how Photines are inside the Pale versus pretty much everywere else. Not sure how I'd handle that.

    AtomicPope wrote:
    I don't like treating Vecna as a deity. Therefore, his primary enemy should be PC's rather than other deities. By placing Vecna as a Banished Overlord or Ancient Evil rather than a god he becomes a boogey man. Even less tangible. In D&D the gods are real. There's no use denying it. Gods have a defined place in the universe, too well defined I'm afraid. The divine certitude of godhood also means a powerful villan, as a god, fits a niche as well. Consider this thread...

    Keeping Vecna a mystery means not making him a god. Or at least, not acknowledging it. The same formula was applied to Tharizdun until his status as a "Silent God" was confirmed. After that, he's become the "go to god" for mustache twisting evil cult leaders. Kill the gods or the mystery dies.


    I don't know. Dieties in D&D are certainly more clearly defined but that doesn't meant that they have to become less mysterious. Think about all the cloak and dagger BS behind the recruitment of Vecna cultists. Cultists of Vecna wouldn't be insane blood thristy ravegers looking for a fight and die in the name of their god. They would be subtle but desparate people looking for ways to get ahead. No less crazy then their Iuz or Pyremius but markedly more sane then say a Tharzidite.

    In one of the games I am running takes place in the port city of Griss (my own creation) which lies in the Great Kingdom. Many of the movers and shakers among the merchant classes and minor landless nobility are members of Fraternity of Silence, the name of a Skull and Bones style brotherhood dedicated to getting its membership put into positions of power. Having a diety like Vecna seems to meld perfectly with it.

    I think that Vecna works fine as a diety. It took me some time to come around to it but over the past year or so the idea has started to gel. Hennce the post.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:01 pm  

    manus-nigrum wrote:
    Could you clarify this for me as to why the are at odds with to one another? The wiki backs this up but it doesn't explain why.


    At the climax of Vecna Lives! the PCs have to summon Iuz to battle Vecna while they push him into one of Tovag Baragu's portals, banishing him from Oerth. He ends up trapped in the Demiplane of Dread for a decade or so. He escapes in the course of Die, Vecna, Die! where a spell that Vecna planted long ago is discovered by Iuz; it allows a demigod to absorb another demigod and become a greater deity. Iuz ventures into the Demiplane of Dread to absorb Vecna, but unfortunately for him the spell was a trap; Vecna absorbs Iuz and, with his newly acquired power as a greater god, tears himself free of the demiplane. Iuz later escaped after the PCs defeated Vecna, but obviously they aren't happy with each other.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:42 pm  

    manus-nigrum wrote:
    AtomicPope wrote:
    I don't like treating Vecna as a deity. His primary enemy should be PC's rather than other deities. By placing Vecna as a Banished Overlord or Ancient Evil rather than a god he becomes a boogey man. Even less tangible. In D&D the gods are real. There's no use denying it. Gods have a defined place in the universe, too well defined I'm afraid. The divine certitude of godhood also means a powerful villan, as a god, fits a niche as well. Consider this thread...

    Keeping Vecna a mystery means not making him a god. Or at least, not acknowledging it. The same formula was applied to Tharizdun until his status as a "Silent God" was confirmed. After that, he's become the "go to god" for mustache twisting evil cult leaders. Kill the gods or the mystery dies.


    I don't know. Dieties in D&D are certainly more clearly defined but that doesn't meant that they have to become less mysterious. Think about all the cloak and dagger BS behind the recruitment of Vecna cultists. Cultists of Vecna wouldn't be insane blood thristy ravegers looking for a fight and die in the name of their god. They would be subtle but desparate people looking for ways to get ahead. No less crazy then their Iuz or Pyremius but markedly more sane then say a Tharzidite.

    <snip>

    I think that Vecna works fine as a diety. It took me some time to come around to it but over the past year or so the idea has started to gel. Hennce the post.

    If you read carefully you'll notice I don't have a problem with Vecna as a deity, I have a problem with - what Deity means in D&D. I've bolded my post for emphasis on the points I've made. Consider the entire plotline of Vecna Lives! where the PC's must enlist the efforts of another god to foil Vecna. PC's are usually railroaded when gods are involved. The heavy-handed, Vecna-pulp modules of 2e amounted to a campy Picka-Path (tm) as opposed to a dark, gothic horror (which was the explicit intention - no interpretation necessary).

    I'm not saying you could never use Vecna as a god because it won't work. What I am saying is god-making occurred not once but twice; and the result was disastrous, consistently disastrous. The key to a mystery is the buildup, and that requires withholding information. Deities have a well defined role in D&D. When you say "Deity" it carries weight as a game mechanic, when it should focus on story elements. You don't have to believe me. However, when Tharizdun became a known god it opened the flood gates for cheesy name-dropping and module plotlines. The story elements are overlooked because the module simply needed a convenient banner to wave.

    Mysterious Event? - Check!
    Cultists? - Check!
    Hidden Temple? - Check!
    Evil God? - Check!

    In D&D gods can work as villans. Iuz is different because the treatment is different. The banner is a banner of War. The war is conquest. It's viceral, brutal, and there's no indication that he'll honor a truce when it no longer suits him. His role as a general commanding an inhuman horde allows the PC's compelling choices. They can thwart cults or caravans. They can choose to be freedom fighters or sack the Old One's churches. Vecna, on the other hand, has offered little in choice. Compare any of the Vecna-pulp modules to City of Skulls or Iuz the Evil and it's obvious that Mystery gods are a failure in D&D.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:51 pm  

    AtomicPope wrote:
    The story elements are overlooked because the module simply needed a convenient banner to wave.

    Mysterious Event? - Check!
    Cultists? - Check!
    Hidden Temple? - Check!
    Evil God? - Check!


    Hahahahahaha

    Thats awesome

    Laughing


    AtomicPope wrote:
    I'm not saying you could never use Vecna as a god because it won't work. What I am saying is god-making occurred not once but twice; and the result was disastrous, consistently disastrous.


    No, it didn't happen twice, ascension to divinity is a fairly constant theme in Greyhawk. Always has been. Iuz, Vecna, Ye Chind, St. Cuthbert, Mayaheine, Al-Akbar, Zygyg, Johydee, Kyuss, Orcus... I'm sure that if we needed one rasgon could provide us with a complete list of mortals risen to divine status if necessary but thats isn't the point.

    I can understand the problem you face with how deities are treated in D&D, for a long time I had the same problems but that isn't really the point of this thread, the point is to discuss an appropriate antithesis for Venca on the Prime Material. However you have brought up an interesting tangent so I don't mind.

    The core of the problem as it seems to me is that gods are dealt with in a fashion that is unrealistic, contrived and, lets just call a cheeto a cheeto, the Gods must be Crazy because in a lot of cases they've become down right cheesy.

    Whats the racist frog God again? Wastri I think.

    This isn't something that is easy to get around and it does involve a lot of work on the part of the DM as well as requiring no small effort from the part of the players but the problem isn't one that is insurmountable. Its largely fixed by skewing interpretation of individual lines of faith. Different dieties should be dealt with each in different ways. Yes I know that they all (buried somewhere) have states so that you can fight them, but you don't have to use those stats.

    There are individual deities that would make sense for players to be able to go toe to toe with. Iuz makes an especially interesting opponent and his being one of the few entities in existance that can go directly against a God of a more ephemeral nature makes him an quandry. His home is on the Prime Material and it would reason that Vecna being rooted in the same place they would have multiple reasons for a mutual enmity.

    Ugh... I'm getting side tracked by going back to the original discussion. I'll get back to that in a minute. Anyway...

    AtomicPope wrote:
    In D&D gods can work as villans. Iuz is different because the treatment is different. The banner is a banner of War. The war is conquest. It's viceral, brutal, and there's no indication that he'll honor a truce when it no longer suits him. His role as a general commanding an inhuman horde allows the PC's compelling choices. They can thwart cults or caravans. They can choose to be freedom fighters or sack the Old One's churches. Vecna, on the other hand, has offered little in choice. Compare any of the Vecna-pulp modules to City of Skulls or Iuz the Evil and it's obvious that Mystery gods are a failure in D&D.


    I don't see the threat as being all that different from Vecna. The Banner here is betrayal, it is intruige. The question in a game that deals with Vecna is not a matter of who the enemy is. We know who the enemy is. It is misdirection. How do you confuse the players so that they kill the wrong people. Spies in the service of the maimed God would use every dirty trick in the KGB play book and then some.

    You're right, with Iuz the story is brutal, it is visceral, it is bloody but it doesn't have to be, remember, Iuz is a trickster god as well. He can be everybit as subtle as Vecna. Having Iuz cultists go up against Vecna cultists and putting the hapless players getting caught in the cross fire posses some interesting campaign ideas.

    Besides, as Vecnas cultists have a decidedly, subversive feel to them, stories involving them can take on extremely dark overtones. I tie in players families and (non-adventuring friends into games. NPC's are paramount to fleshing out any game of course, but when you can run games were those friends and family can be turned into either antagonists or scapegoats for antagonists, more then better.

    AtomicPope wrote:
    Consider the entire plotline of Vecna Lives! where the PC's must enlist the efforts of another god to foil Vecna. PC's are usually railroaded when gods are involved. The heavy-handed, Vecna-pulp modules of 2e amounted to a campy Picka-Path (tm) as opposed to a dark, gothic horror (which was the explicit intention - no interpretation necessary).


    Now lets not go throwing the baby out with the bath water here. Now granted, the Vecna series of modules is one of the most reviled series in D&D history. I think that says something for it though. At least your reactions isn't "hoe-hum, it was ok". Just because the execution of the story was handled poorly (to say the least) in the modules doesn't mean you have to stick to that or even release all the information therein to include the elevation of Vecna to divine status. I know I sure as hell don't. I don't even know all of the story.

    Personally, I like it. It involves a continuation of a much beloved antagonist. Vecna's a lot like the Nazi's. They the people everyone can agree to hate.

    (Even Tharzidites)
    CF Admin

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    Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:11 pm  

    manus-nigrum wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    In the Hand of the Revenant comic book, it was priests of Pholtus who were responsible for burning off Vecna's hand and eye.


    Any idea on were I can find a copy of this?


    Unfortunately it's long OOP and despite the author re-surfacing from time-to-time, he hasn't reappeared long enough to continue the series.
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