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    Canonfire :: View topic - Polymorph Other
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    Polymorph Other
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
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    Tue May 18, 2004 7:08 am  
    Polymorph Other

    Perhaps I can canvas opinion on this spell, I am particularly talking 1st/2nd edition but 3rd may be the same I dunno.

    The problem I have is it is a save or die spell, now you could argue that there are many other spells of similiar level but somehow this one seems wrong. Let me paint a picture..

    The heroic/lucky party burst in on Xenvelen, high priest of Crockport, he is surrounded by his Elite Phalanx of Orog bruisers and IMC his succubus consort. Everyone rolls for initiative, the party mage always rolls low, so he blats Xenvelen with a polymorph other and turns him into a jellyfish. Oops morale checks all round, lots of running away by the orogs, succubus exits stage right, and Xenvelen the Jellyfish slows flopps to his death.

    Now this spell lacks the finesse of disintergrate or similiar spells, and if I allow it for the party mage, then that means I too can use it back against them, and as an evil DM I still find it hard to say to a player "Best make this save or your history".

    So theres my problem, advice?? Confused
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue May 18, 2004 7:24 am  

    This happened many, many, many years ago, and I'm trying to remember all the details, so please bear with me since everyone knows memory is the first thing to go.

    A player's dwarf fighter was polymorphed into a field mouse. Missed the save. The DM handled it as, the dwarf was a field mouse, but still retained his own mind. The party was trying to rush said dwarf to a mage, though I'm straining to recall what spell they were going to try and have cast on him. Perhaps dispell magic I'm thinking.

    The DM had the dwarf's player make a wisdom check every day. To see if he kept his sensibilities or slipped into the mindset of a field mouse. Well, naturally the day before they arrived in the town they were rushing too, the player missed his wisdom check and sadly the other PC who had been galloping furiously for four days simply released the poor dwarf/field mouse into the grass to live a happy mouse life.

    So you could offer a player that sort or out if they get zapped into something distastefull like a jellyfish. Have dispel magic cast against the level of the mage who cast the polymorph if they can keep their senses about them until the spell is cast.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 17, 2004
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    From: Cullman, AL

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    Wed May 19, 2004 4:36 am  

    Tedra wrote:
    So you could offer a player that sort or out if they get zapped into something distastefull like a jellyfish. Have dispel magic cast against the level of the mage who cast the polymorph if they can keep their senses about them until the spell is cast.


    Keeping his senses is probably not the biggest concern for a waterbreather suddenly stuck on dry land.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed May 19, 2004 4:41 am  

    That precisely is the problem, if the party mage polymorphed enemies into chicken or sloths, then at least they can make a bif for freedom, but I know his mind works in unpleasant ways and the target will always end up as a jellyfish or fish. Either way, the target is a dead-duck (so to speak Confused )
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed May 19, 2004 4:54 am  

    Well I suppose there isn't much you can do about that then. If no matter what, when he uses polymorph he's going to turn them into sea faring creatures then it seems they'll have to make the save or else. Unless the players just happen to take big buckets of water with them on adventures 'just in case.' Wink Or have a strategically placed pool of water, river, lake, ocean....ewww...could you imagine trying to scrape a jellyfish off a stone floor without damaging it too badly? Or trying to pick it out of a tall grass? or gravel?
    CF Admin

    Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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    Thu May 20, 2004 7:28 am  

    Make it a "touch" spell and require the mage to make an attack roll using his base thaco calculated by level only. Problem Solved.

    I bet the mage never memorizes the spell again.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu May 27, 2004 4:09 am  

    Good idea Abysslin, simply make the mage hit the opponents armour class, he is very hesitant about getting into hand-to-hand and this might just work.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:41 am  

    Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
    I took the suggestion of touch attack, but the player countered with "That means I can use Spectral Hand to cast it, I have a range of 120 yards now"

    HELP!!!!
    Sad
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:06 am  

    See....I tried to get you to bend just a little. Perhaps not turn them into something so drastically different that has no chance to survive in a land dweller's atmosphere. But noooo, you drow are haaaaaaaard headed. Wink

    Teasing aside, don't you hate it when you have a spiffy idea but your players have to be copycats? Who made up this whole whatever's good for the goose is good for the gander thing, anyway.

    As for what to do? I mean, what can you do? Tell him he can't do it? That hardly seems fair and you know, players whine a lot when they think you're getting away with something they aren't allowed to do. If the players are going to try this nifty trick on your diabolical mage, then if he's high enough level, have him cast Minor Globe of Invulnerability when your PC begins muttering his spells. Mr. Diabolical is then protected from 1st to 3rd, and though PO is 4th it's still traveling by way of a 2nd level spell. Then he's still free to cast as he pleases, perhaps even testing out the ingenius PC's Spectral Hand theory.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:25 am  

    I prostrate myself before your magnificance Tedra. Of course Spectral Hand will be countered by the Minor Globe, I cant wait to see his face Laughing . I should of known I could rely on the female of the species to come up with something devious Wink
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:05 am  

    Your prostration is duely noted, Yabusama, and my magnificence greatly appreciates it. Are we females so notorious for malicious plotting and devious underhandedness? Wink
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
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    Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:21 pm  

    Or if you wish to be truly mean, have the enemy wear a ring of spell turning, and see how the PC likes being a jellyfish. And make sure the ring is a variant charged form with only one or two charges left, in case the PC's do win.

    Seriously though, this points out a common frustration as a DM in trying to run the one big bad guy. Any single opponent can easily be taken out if the numerous PC's concentrate firepower. What is much harder to deal with is numerous medium opponents.

    Kirt
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    Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:37 am  

    Kirt the problem is not only many medium level bad guys that will always pose a problem, but the fact that some magic spells (both clerical and mage) are save or die. If you are a fighter in melee you rarely suffer a quick death at medium level or greater, you have a bucket of hit points and your death will take at least 4 or 5 rounds, plenty of time for heroic efforts. Come to think of it, even a mage or thief in melee will last a few rounds before keeling over.

    My problem is with the "Make a save vrs spell, and believe me you want to make this one" phrase that I say to a player.

    Perhaps and example would explain this;

    Fargon the last knight of a lost order of Tritherion enters the throne room and sees Xenvelen lounging on this throne. A massive fight ensues with the pair moving back and forth across the chamber, blood flying through the air, each cursing the other as the sweat runs down their faces.

    Who wins is irrelevant, its the process that is heroic, and if the player dies then he will feel he had a good death. Now consider this..

    Fargon the last knight of a lost order of Tritherion enters the throne room and sees Xenvelen lounging on this throne. Fargon loses initiative and is turned into a jellyfish and dies.

    Mmmm as the player I would feel miffed, my character of 1 year, and hundreds of hours of playing is gone in a single failed roll.

    Sadly I don't think there is a way out of this sort of abrupt ending scenario.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:53 am  

    Well then if you always want fights to be heroic, at least fights against important foes, then the save or die mechanic is not for your campaign.
    That is probably why polymorph other is not allowed in Living Greyhawk.

    Suggestions:
    1. Flat out, such spells do not exist in the campaign.

    2. Any spell that is save or die has a minimum multiple round casting time. If a save or die spell has a 5 round casting time, there is plenty of time for heroics before its completion.

    3. have the spell take effect progressively - each round a save is made and failures turn the opponant into more and more of a jellyfish, like a slow acting poison has cumulative hit and movement penalties each round.

    4. Institute a point system where leveled individuals get to re-roll saves. Say one re-roll per level per day. Apply it to blocks and attacks too if you want. Then, both players and major NPCs will rarely fail saves.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:47 am  

    Some further thoughts on polymorph other -

    The form is changed but the hp remian the same. Thus it is going to be one tough jellyfish. Far from being scraped of the floor, it should be slithering around.

    Fudge Factors:

    1. There is an upward limit on the form: the new creature can have no more than twice the hd as the original form had hd or levels. So why not have a lower limit? The new creature can have no less than half the hd that the original form had hd or levels. Thus, 8th level priest means you have to change it into something at least 4HD or more (thus justifying all those hp). My guess is your player chooses a giant portuguese man o' war.

    2. Illusionists casting fakes of other magic spells have to have familiarity with the other spell in order to make it realistic or believeable. Transmuters casting polymorph should similarly have experience with the new form. I doubt any adventuring mage from Furyondy has enough experience with jellyfish to make it work. My guess is your player chooses a trout.

    3. Increase the casting time by one round for every change necessary in taxonomic hierarchy, starting at the Class. For example, 1 round for mammal to any other mammal (within class). 2 rounds for mammal to newt (change in class). 3 rounds for mammal to jellyfish (change in phylum). 4 rounds for mammal to fungus (change in Kingdom). Can you tell I am a biologist? Or, Polymorph Other Within Class is level 5 spell, but Polymorph Other Within Phylum is 6th level, Polymorph Other Within Kingdom is 7th level, Polymorph Other to Any Alive is 8th level, and Polymorph Other to Mineral is 9th. This could just be one spell, but the caster would have to memorize it as the appropriate level desired at the start of the day.

    4. If the priest is standing next to a succubis, allow the MR of the succubis to have a chance to spoil the spell before a save is necessary. Or better, if the jellyfish is rescued by the succubis, her MR has the % chance per round of dispelling the polymorph. "She turned me into a newt, but I got better."

    Kirt
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:01 am  

    Excellent suggestions Kirt!
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