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    Canonfire :: View topic - American Indians
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    American Indians
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:56 pm  
    American Indians

    Hi. Just wondering if there are any areas in the Flanaess, Oerik or Oerth that are American Indian in terms of its culture and appearance. Thanks in advance for any info provided. Smile Question
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:23 pm  

    debatably the Rovers of the Barrens are North American plains indian in culture (although not exact appearance) and the olman of the olman islands and the amedio jungle are mesoamerican indian in culture (again but not in exact appearance).
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    Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:51 am  

    I think that the Rovers of the Barrens, are the most similar to the American Indian. Wolf Nomads are a mixture of American Indian and Mongul. Tiger Nomads are similar but a bit more war-like and mongul-like than the Wolf Nomads.
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    Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:29 am  

    There was a fun adventure in an old old Dungeon magazine... ah! Dungeon Magazine #32, "Ghost Dance," where the Rovers were depicted as very Native American. It wasn't a bad adventure as it went. If you want to pick it up off Paizo.com or somesuch, it might be helpful.
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    Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:51 am  

    PaulN6 wrote:
    I think that the Rovers of the Barrens, are the most similar to the American Indian.

    I agree with this whole-heartedly. They are, by far, the most like IRL amerindians. Though they do have a few elements (mostly in appearance) of their Flan heritage, their culture is almost definatively Amerindian. As was mentioned, they are depicted that way in Dragon articles, and Dungeon Adventures ("Ghost Dance" is fairly good), and even in the LGG, they are drawn that way.

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Wolf Nomads are a mixture of American Indian and Mongul.

    I would disagree on a minor point here. The way I envision it, the amalgamation of the Persian-esque Baklunish to the West, and the Rovers of the Barrens resulted in a culture like that of the IRL Mongolian Empire.
    PaulN6 wrote:
    Tiger Nomads are similar but a bit more war-like and mongul-like than the Wolf Nomads.

    Both the Wolves and the Tigers were once part of the same ethnic group and culture. The wolves happen to be named after the group that Temugin (Genghis Khan) was born into. They were the Blue Wolf tribe ... descended from an ancestor that they believed to actually *be* a wolf. They split and formed two distinct groups, much in the same way that the Mongol Empire split after Genghis Kahn's death. The Tigers are more similar to the Asian Khanate set up by Kublai Khan ... still very Mongol, but clearly showing elements of eastern Asian culture (such as tigers which are found in that region, and the use of the term "Ilkhan").
    Both groups are very "mongol-like", it's just that some are similar to different parts of the Mongolian empire.

    [Edited for clarification]
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    Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:30 am  

    Icarus wrote:
    PaulN6 wrote:
    I think that the Rovers of the Barrens, are the most similar to the American Indian.

    I agree with this whole-heartedly. They are, by far, the most like IRL amerindians. Though they do have a few elements (mostly in appearance) of their Flan heritage, their culture is almost definatively Amerindian. As was mentioned, they are depicted that way in Dragon articles, and Dungeon Adventures ("Ghost Dance" is fairly good), and even in the LGG, they are drawn that way.


    In truth, the Flan in general strongly resemble First Nations culture in my view. Not all North American Aboriginals were nomadic, with many residing in their own cities and settlements. It seems clear to me that EGG patterned the Flan after the First Nations, based on their physical descriptions (bronze/copper tan skin, black hair) and their being displaced by the paler Oeridians and Suel as they arrived in the Flanaess and set up their own states.

    Any Aboriginal culture you might like to emulate can be done with the Flan, really. Whether it's the settled Iroquois and Huron, the nomadic Cree and Blackfoot, or the well-travelled Haida, they can all be adapted to the Flan of one area or another of the Flanaess.
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    Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:21 pm  

    I only relate the Flan to early Americans insofar as how they look. I don't mean cultural dress or anything like that. I just mean basic appearance. Culturally I treat them very differently and I don't use any archetypal images of mohawks or other real world culturally distinctive hair styles, feathers in the hair, rib bone vests, feather headdresses, peace pipes, etc. I leave that at the door when entering Greyhawk. I think the best thing is to give only the slightest hint of that early Americans feel to the Flan, just so that the players have something to identify with on the most basic level, but from there take the players into a world that is unlike anything historical in a real world sense. This of course goes to the whole point of having a fantasy world to begin with rather than an alternate Earth with very close analogs. Fantasy is, to me, best when it presents something unique. Taking Lakota, Seminoles, and Blackfoot and just changing their name to "Flan" just doesn't do it for me on any level. In my opinion, this is one of the great failings in later Greyhawk material with regards to the Flan, the Baklunish, the Thilronian Suel, and the Olman.
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    Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:46 am  

    IMG the Flan of Geoff and the Keoish regions are much more Celtic, maybe the name Geoff influenced my vision of them. However, they also have a great deal in common with the early indians of New England, who also shared many similarities with the Celts. These similarities are probably climate driven/terrain driven similarities rather than any cross ocean resonance, but nonetheless, it is there.

    I also tend to insert little pockets of peoples around. There is so much land between Hookhill and Thornward, I have herders/nomads living there who are flan decended, and more simlar to the native americans of the great plains in their lifestyle. Those flan tribes of the Rushmoors I model on the swamp men and native american tribes of the SE united states.
    GreySage

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    Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:08 am  

    The curly hair the Flan are described as having, at least, is very unlike most native Americans in appearance. Gary Gygax said he actually based the appearance of the Flan on Hamitic Africans.

    That's not to say I haven't used American Indians as inspiration as well.
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    Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:06 am  
    Flan around the world

    that's a very good point Rasgon. Not all Flan are modeled after Amerindians. Really, the only ones that carry that flavor are the Rovers. Around the world, the Flan vary greatly. The Rovers are a very particular case because of other influences around them. The "pure" Flan found in other regions would have very different cultures, which may be like other aboriginal or native cultures.

    I for one believe that Greyhawk's historical influences is one of it's greatest strong points. It let's us play in a psuedo-mythological world that is still familiar setting that is like the real world cultures that they are drawn from.
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    Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:51 am  

    I'll take my own critique of the Flan-as-Amerindians premise even further, which is that it's an object lesson in what to avoid in commercial RPG fantasy.

    Apparently, it ain't just me. It should escape no one's notice that incredibly few products were produced detailing that area of the map, along with the arabic-themed Bakluni, the mesomaerican themed Olman, etc.

    It is an axiom that commercially barren leads to creatively barren, and that's where it hoses us as customers. The few bits and pieces that ever got published for these areas are dull cultural knockoffs, like Flan as Sioux, Mahdis and Akbars and religious sect analogues in Bakluni areas, and so forth.

    Tamoachan is the only fringe cultural themed product from GH that enjoys a popular nostalgic reputation, and that's because it is a kickass dungeon crawl. But I'd bet a billion dollars if they'd gone on to market an Olman sourcebook, it would have sold like fur coats on the sun.

    It's interesting that Paizo is repeating some of these same mistakes with Golarion. This week they are giving away their arabic-themed sourcebook.


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    Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:04 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I think the best thing is to give only the slightest hint of that early Americans feel to the Flan, just so that the players have something to identify with on the most basic level, but from there take the players into a world that is unlike anything historical in a real world sense. This of course goes to the whole point of having a fantasy world to begin with rather than an alternate Earth with very close analogs. Fantasy is, to me, best when it presents something unique. Taking Lakota, Seminoles, and Blackfoot and just changing their name to "Flan" just doesn't do it for me on any level. In my opinion, this is one of the great failings in later Greyhawk material with regards to the Flan, the Baklunish, the Thilronian Suel, and the Olman.


    nematode wrote:
    I'll take my own critique of the Flan-as-Amerindians premise even further, which is that it's an object lesson in what to avoid in commercial RPG fantasy.


    I will respectfully disagree. I do see the point being made and I do have some sympathy and appreciation for it. However, I have more sympathy and appreciation for the counter-argument,with one caveat.

    Basing fantasy cultures on actual cultures has two large advantages.

    First, any real culture will have far more useful detail and inherent verisimiltude than any fantasy creation - by definition. This may not be apparent if all one does is scan the surface of a real world culture for certain iconic images or motifs but anything more will be far more revealing. And such, with some research, is readily available.

    Second, as something of a corollary, no fantasy author nor game designer has the time or ability to create a complete fantasy culture. The best create a list of iconic images and motifs and call it a fantasy culture. Resort to the Big Names in Fantasy illustrates the point. Tolkien? Influence (among others) - Norse. REH? Influence - Europe generally. One could go on.

    There is, as I noted above, one VERY large caveat - how you go about drawing inspiration from the real world cultures. You can ham-handedly say Rovers = Souix + Mohawk etc. OR you can create a fantasy version of the Souix + Mohawk etc. and call them the Rovers. The approaches are similar but different. I call the use of real world proto-types with added fantasy elements to fit a setting - "fantasy reality." E.g., Souix-like but not Souix. Inspired by the Mohawk but not Mohawk. Of course, what is too close to reality so to be called ham-fisted, and how much fantasy is necessary to be added to the genuine article, will be a matter of individual taste.

    Personally, I learn a great deal creating fantasy societies. I love reading history and, when applied to gaming as a hobby, history books become defacto game supplements. I double my pleasure and double my fun - history as history and history as inspiration for "fantasy reality."

    Of course, and again, how close is too close to reality will vary by individual and taste. I have a stronger taste for closer parallels than either of the worthies quoted above I'll venture. One of GH's great appeals to me is that EGG did employ strong parallels on occasion, while at the same time not being wholly limited by them. In this way, I find WoG has the greater verisimiltude than any more "purely" fantasy creation such as, perhaps, Eberron.

    YMMV
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    Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:40 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:


    Basing fantasy cultures on actual cultures has two large advantages.

    First, any real culture will have far more useful detail and inherent verisimiltude than any fantasy creation - by definition. This may not be apparent if all one does is scan the surface of a real world culture for certain iconic images or motifs but anything more will be far more revealing. And such, with some research, is readily available.

    Second, as something of a corollary, no fantasy author nor game designer has the time or ability to create a complete fantasy culture. The best create a list of iconic images and motifs and call it a fantasy culture. Resort to the Big Names in Fantasy illustrates the point. Tolkien? Influence (among others) - Norse. REH? Influence - Europe generally. One could go on.

    There is, as I noted above, one VERY large caveat - how you go about drawing inspiration from the real world cultures. You can ham-handedly say Rovers = Souix + Mohawk etc. OR you can create a fantasy version of the Souix + Mohawk etc. and call them the Rovers. The approaches are similar but different. I call the use of real world proto-types with added fantasy elements to fit a setting - "fantasy reality." E.g., Souix-like but not Souix. Inspired by the Mohawk but not Mohawk. Of course, what is too close to reality so to be called ham-fisted, and how much fantasy is necessary to be added to the genuine article, will be a matter of individual taste.

    Personally, I learn a great deal creating fantasy societies. I love reading history and, when applied to gaming as a hobby, history books become defacto game supplements. I double my pleasure and double my fun - history as history and history as inspiration for "fantasy reality."

    Of course, and again, how close is too close to reality will vary by individual and taste. I have a stronger taste for closer parallels than either of the worthies quoted above I'll venture. One of GH's great appeals to me is that EGG did employ strong parallels on occasion, while at the same time not being wholly limited by them. In this way, I find WoG has the greater verisimiltude than any more "purely" fantasy creation such as, perhaps, Eberron.

    YMMV


    Similarly, there's a major inherent problem in comparing the cultures of our real world to those of a fantasy world. None of our historical ancient cultures, anywhere in the world, interacted face to face with other sentient beings that were markedly different from humanity, or immediately obvious, quantifiable magic and sorcery.

    Who's to say how the Ming Dynasty, the Kingdom of the Kongo, the Mayan Empire, the Iroquois Confederacy, the Sumerian Empire, or the kingdom of Charlemagne would have responded to the presence of orcs, elves and dragons? By its very nature, wouldn't magic fundamentally impact the development of their society?

    Again, I'm taking a leaf from DVGammerung's book in borrowing aspects from certain cultures, and otherwise putting a unique spin on them.

    Many First Nations in North America had no need to develop a system of writing or books. However, with the presence of Vancian magic in the world, the Greyhawk cultures inspired by them have developed their own spellbooks and from there have literacy and rudimentary mathematics. Trading with the dwarves and gnomes has also given them metal swords and spears, which they use to great effect in fighting orc raiders.

    At the time of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, China was heavily divided, with masters like Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao warring for control. The Greyhawk cultures it inspired has human warlords actively seeking the favor of the halfling clans, whose agricultural skills are an extremely valuable asset in keeping armies fed and citizens loyal. As a result, halflings wield tremendous political influence in this land, and trade their skills at farming for political favors, and sign mutually beneficial treaties with the humans, who protect them from the rampaging ogres and trolls.

    By combining certain essential traits of the D&D world, namely that demihumans and humanoids are spread all around the world just as are humans, and have their own notable racial traits*, along with the fact that magic works much the same all around the world as well in requiring some form of written text for spellcasters to relearn their magic spells through study, you can have a lot of fun.

    * When I say "racial traits", I mean certain traits typically associated with certain races. Dwarves are master craftsmen, gnomes are highly skilled engineers, halflings have a strong connection with the land and are great farmers, elves are inherently skilled with magic, etc. The primary racial trait of humanity is its versatility and adaptability.

    The human race is a jack of all trades, but master of none, in the sense that it can become skilled at anything it sets its mind to, but it will be invariable outclassed in that specific field by another race. This is a trait that every strain of the human race shares, whether Flan, Oeridian, Olman, Touv, Suel, Baklunish, indeed every human tribe.
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    Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:05 am  

    This is always a tough topic to sift through when it comes up, and my comments may come off as overly critical. With regards to real world comparisons and how things are presented in Greyhawk, or any fantasy world, the main thing in my mind is consistency. If the level of real world comparison is consistent, it serves to represent a homogenous whole. When there is a lack of consistency it is very noticable, and it detracts from the whole. Surely we can make real world comparisons with most things in Greyhawk, but certainly not to the level that is in seen in the examples I pointed out(LGG Baklunish, LGG Thilronian Suel, SB Olman, etc.). When too blatant a real world comparison is made, as is the case with parts of these examples, it just dosesn't fit very well with what else there is.

    In my opinion, to not stick with the a certain level of consistency with what is found in the Folio/83' Greyhawk material as it regards comparisons with real world cultures is a great failing on the part of some of the later authors. In the end it gives us Greyhawk, plus other material more suited to a "Mythic Earth" campaign. A "Mythic Earth" campaign world can work really, really well, but it's not Greyhawk.
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:04 am  

    I would have to agree with Cebrion and Cruel Summer Lord. Greyhawk would produce too many unique variables, i.e. even if you call the Flan American Indians they have been influenced by generations of culture that leans far more toward European Feudalism, not to mention the impact of magic and fantastic creatures which we have never dealt with. Too much in the way of cultural styling would be masked over with attitudes, way of living, and technologies that Amerinds in our world never experienced. Some of it may be vaguely reminiscent but never truly the same as what we know and understand. After so many years of playing I have never really pinned down anything that can be attributed to any particular race. I have used barbarians from the Thillonrian Peninsula that use stone tools and are semi-nomadic, they also dress their hair with feathers. The Rovers are often clad in chainmail and use a variety of weapons from bastard swords to scimitars. Even the Bakluni have never followed any cultural pattern that has been set in stone. The key value is imagination. I have always been heavily influenced by EGG's philosophy of "make it your own, fill in the blanks with your vision". I was also influenced by the early modules based in Greyhawk, neither the stories nor the artwork ever pinpointed anything distinct, even some of the clothing crossed historical timelines considering what we are familiar with.
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:28 am  

    There are lots of opinions on this subject. Nobody is right or wrong, as formative impressions of what is and is not Greyhawk, or D&D for that matter, will vary- sometimes drastically from person to person. We all wear various shades of rose-tinted glasses when it comes to looking at Greyhawk.

    For instance, somebody who is really old school and played D&D before Greyhawk was even released(yes, there are more than a few of us lurking here), made use of pretty much everything out there at the time and mixed in a healthy dose of real world stuff, and who then mixed Greyhawk into all of that(even if Greyhawk subsumed the whole), they will have a very different perspective on the feel of Greyhawk is to them.

    Prior to Greyhawk, the games I played in didn't have that much focus or direction so far as a campaign world was concerned- we used anything and everything. I was pretty much a blank slate and open to the first thing that came along, and that just happened to be Greyhawk. In hindsight I'd say I left most of the pre-Greyhawk stuff behind, as the majority of it was that Monte Haul sort of stuff that everyone laughs about having done. Not so difficult to leave that sort of thing behind. Laughing It took about a year or so in Greyhawk to power down some of that lingering craziness though and really start to get into looking at Greyhawk and how the folio/83' boxed set and a few of the modules defined it.

    I wouldn't call myself a grognard purist or anything though. From time to time something will catch my eye, and I'll look at how it could be incorporated into my version of Greyhawk(witches and serpentfolk being a couple of examples). Probably the best thing about discussing this topic(which does diverge a bit from the OP) is that it serves to focus our attention on the big question "What defines Greyhawk for me?". The varying views on the subject can also serve to generate further ideas as well, which is never a bad thing. Wink
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:08 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    There are lots of opinions on this subject. Nobody is right or wrong, as formative impressions of what is and is not Greyhawk, or D&D for that matter, will vary- sometimes drastically from person to person. We all wear various shades of rose-tinted glasses when it comes to looking at Greyhawk.

    For instance, somebody who is really old school and played D&D before Greyhawk was even released(yes, there are more than a few of us lurking here), made use of pretty much everything out there at the time and mixed in a healthy dose of real world stuff, and who then mixed Greyhawk into all of that(even if Greyhawk subsumed the whole), they will have a very different perspective on the feel of Greyhawk is to them.


    If I can be forgiven for transliterating Cebrion’s post above – what this boils down to, I think, is the context in which one first encountered Greyhawk and how that context colors how you appreciate or perceive Greyhawk. To my knowledge, Cebrion is the first Greyhawker, ever, to explore the “What defines Greyhawk for me” question in precisely these terms. And I think very cleverly and to good use, at least for me. Put another way besides context, Cebrion is speaking of the personal, and thus subjective, antecedents that each of us had with us when we first encountered Greyhawk.

    For some, Greyhawk may have been preceded by no fantasy gaming.

    Others may have played other RPGs and only thereafter encountered Greyhawk. Depending on which RPGs were played, first experiences of Greyhawk will vary wildly between individuals.

    My fantasy RPG antecedents were, besides D&D, Judge's Guild City State (1976), the Arduin Trilogy (Arduin Grimoire (1977), Welcome to Skull Tower (1978) and The Runes of Doom (1978)) and more to the point of the American Indian discussion and the use of real world inspirations for fantasy derivatives – Chivalry and Sorcery.

    Chivalry and Sorcery was published by Fantasy Games Unlimited in 1977. The C&S Sourcebook followed in 1978 along with Swords and Sorcerers. The later book presented the historical Celts, Viking and Mongols for use in C&S. In 1979, the Arden campaign setting for C&S was released that was a fantasy version of Medieval England (and had and still has some of the more interesting fantasy maps). The following year, 1980, saw Land of the Rising Sun released for C&S, a setting featuring samurai and ninja. C&S played heavily off real world cultures in the creation of its fantasy world.

    When I first encountered Greyhawk, it was with this background and personal context. When the Thillonrian Suel appeared Viking-ish, the Rovers American Indian-ish, the Olman Mezo-American-ish etc. I had no problem with this in the least and saw its immediate advantages – a fantasy shorthand that also added touchstones that added a certain verisimilitude.

    Subsequent experience has not changed my feelings. In fact, it is because remembrances of the wonder and fun of early gaming experiences are still so vivid and pleasant that I look to maintain the structures that gave rise to them. Maybe that makes me a grognard or not “cutting edge” nor among the gaming avante gard or what-have-you – those for whom fantasy must have no antecedents, parallels or borrowings – those who must announce for all to see the originality of their fantasy – whatever. I think I prefer the term “classicist” to describe my antediluvian approach. :-D

    Cebrion is certainly correct that there is no “right” answer, as Greyhawk is fixed at no single moment in time to be encountered then or forever misinterpreted. I have never before thought in terms of gaming antecedents and how they color what I see as “Greyhawk.” Excellent observation.
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    Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:12 pm  

    Thanks for the kind words, though someone must have brought this up before. Preconceptions are, I think, much of the reason behind why we see some "wildly" variant material in later Greyhawk products. Too many cooks haven't spoiled the broth necessarily, but there are a lot of ideas in the pot warring with each other(closer analogs and more high fantasy in later material). One could write a book on analyzing and comparing the various Greyhawk products and their cohesiveness to be sure.

    Now go write up an inn or tavern for Postfest! Happy
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