In tracing the evolution of D&D, one aspect of it that was always somewhat controversial was the inclusion of demons and devils.
The first editions of the game were filled with references to eldritch magic, pentagrams, and demon summoning. For a time, right after the second edition came out, demons and devils were not included in the 2nd ed. Monstrous Manual, and that was very controversial among the players.
They were eventually brought back, but were called Baatezu and Yugoloths and the like, as well as Hell itself being renamed to Baator. Today, it looks like we are right back where the game started from with all kinds of diabolic creatures and places being openly discussed.
I bring this up because I am writing a couple of articles dealing with the devils and their relationship with Oerth. I'd like to publish them up on CF, but I want to "test the waters" a bit before I go on. Specifically, how many people out there really have adventures in the lower planes? I know a lot of people discuss them, but does anyone's campaigns actually end up getting out there that much?
Secondly, what do you think of the nether planes as they are depicted? The Abyss is so large that anyone can make it into whatever version they want (that's the beauty of it) so I am basically asking about Hell (Baator).
I did not like the Planescape version, mostly because they were hip deep in the baatezu/tannari political correctness and also because I never did like the idea that these planes were just other locations to adventure in. I refer to the various PS products that would imply that mortals would visit Dis just to open up merchant routes (the Fires of Dis module - which was otherwise a pretty good adventure). This is the Bad Place! You don't become a spice merchant in Hell! I just thought that the PS crowd treated the lower planes far too casually.
I am big on the epic good versus evil campaign theme. Accordingly, I have a Dante/Miltoneque classic view of the outer planes. It is to be a place of the highest adventure, no little mundane affairs but restricted to world shattering epics only (the Lolth series is a fine example).
Is this a typical viewpoint, or am I way off on a tangent, or maybe I should just relax and not even worry about it?
I would love to see these articles. As for me, I've been at this for fourteen years, yet I've never gone plane hopping except once landing in Sigil. None of my adventures have ever led into the lower planes, nor have I DMed a game that landed my players there. Plane traveling is one thing our group hasn't gotten involved in that much.
I, for one, like the freedom of the Abyss and the room for personal creation and invention. For instance, the thread on The Infinite Layers of the Abyss in the World of Greyhawk Discussion section. I've never delved that deeply into the planes as far as reading and research, although the history and information in Chris Pramas' Guide to Hell was very interesting to me.
My husband however, does like the Planescape setting, though I don't much care for it. Actually for the same reasons you stated. I also agree absolutely with your ideas on plane adventuring being based on the highest epic scale. To me, tromping through the planes should be reserved for averting some huge Oerth exploding catastrophe or such. Of course that is only my opinion.
I think you shouldn't even worry about it. Just go with it, see where you end up, then let all of us read it.
I, too, would love to read more outer planar materials with Greyhawk-slanted content! I've still got several Excerpts from the Demonomicon of Iggwilv in various stages of draftedness, I've just been too busy to complete them :(
I've taken PCs to the outer planes multiple times, at various levels of play (anywhere from 6th or so, up through high-levels). They're fun, they're free-form, and you and do anything you want there. I love throwing in details about the planes that take players by surprise. I've never played PS, so I can't help you on that front, but I don't see why folks on CF! wouldn't want to read more outer planar materials.
I agree that the Planescape campaign setting, in many ways, trivializes the gravity of what the Outer Planes are supposed to represent. The Outer Planes are supposed to be a strange meta-physical realm where mortals are not meant to tread.
Having said that, however, I must say that Planescape is a good setting.
It seems, in the 3E Manual of the Planes, that Greyhawk has officially claimed sole ownership of the Outer Planes as we know them. Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and the rest are no longer linked to the "Great Wheel" cosmology that we are all familiar with. These campaigns now have there own cosmology. This makes sense but, I must say, when I ran Planescape a few years back, I had heaps of fun playing on the aspect that Greyhawk, FR, and Dragonlance were all linked to the same Outer Planes. Sure, this tended to "sully" the integrity of each campaign, but it was a lot of fun.
Anyway, I used Planescape for a while but then I got sick of it and returned the campaign back to Oerth from whence it had come. In one adventure the PCs rescued a goddess from the clutches of Graz'zt.
There was a world shaking event recently in my GH game that shook loose all the planar gates and ushered in 3E. Now my games are Oerth-based only and we're still having loads of fun!
Baggins, (I'm sorry if I'm thread hijacking) was that adventure of your own making or was it from the FR setting? I'm just curious because I remember reading a pdf adventure where Graz'zt had captured, I think, the FR equivelent of Zilchus. I can't remember her name. But I very vividly remember looking through that and thinking it would be loads of fun to run. I can't remember the name of it, and it's going to drive me crazy. It's on my other computer and I'm too lazy to hook it up and look.
Tedra, the name of the adventure is "For Duty and Deity", which plots around the rescue of Waukeen (the goddess of merchants and wealth, IIRC) . Ironically, its the best source i ever read detailing the triple realm of Grazz't _________________ Kneel before Rahu!
Baggins, (I'm sorry if I'm thread hijacking) was that adventure of your own making or was it from the FR setting?
Yes, Tedra, it was based on the FR module. And I did download it for free from the Wizard's site.
But get this! The PCs actually failed the quest! They were tricked by the ever coniving Graz'zt into rescuing a dupe instead of the real goddess.
Anyway, because the PCs wanted closure on the matter, I wrote my own adventure later on which allowed them to infiltrate a section of Graz'zt's sprawling city-sized palace.
This time they succeeded and in the nick of time, too, because Graz'zt arrived.
I plan in the future to have Graz'zt's tricks and assassins to continually plague the PCs.
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