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    Canonfire :: View topic - Eraj e Felnorith
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    Eraj e Felnorith
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:43 am  
    Eraj e Felnorith

    I found some data on Felnorith on Google, but not very much, actually it's not clear whether it's an elf or a human.
    But I found absolutely nothing on Eraj.
    Has someone developed these two warriors? Are they real nobles and if so do they have a family, a manor, land, maybe in a vale within the Yatils close to Mordenkainen?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:16 pm  

    Haven't developed them, but from City of Greyhawk the only thing we know is that as of 582 CY they are both LN 12th level fighters who ride trained griffons. There may be more info in the Gord novel Artifact of Evil but I've never read it.
    CF Admin

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    Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:06 pm  

    Info on the dynamic duo (via Jason Zavoda's index, of course!):

    Eraj [NPC]
    COG:FFF - 21

    Eraj [NPC]
    AOE - 323,324

    and

    Felnorith [NPC]
    AOE - 323,324
    LGJ#0 - 5

    Felnorith [NPC]
    COG:FFF - 21
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    Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:08 pm  

    I'm afraid that's the same info I found as well, except for the Artifact of Evil reference (a book I don't have).
    I had the impression they were sort of protectors of small manors within the Yatils valleys protected by Mordenkainen, hence the "lord" titles, but probably they're just bodyguards that live in the obsidian citadel.
    Besides, has anyone really detailed Mordenkainen's home in the Yatils?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:56 am  

    The only additional information from Artifact of Evil is that both fighters fought in the Vesve at the Gathering Place alongside Mordenkainen in the battle where Patch and Ormuz fell, and that both bear swords that could do harm to a powerful demon(type VI) which they helped Mordenkainen defeat.

    That is literally it.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:16 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    both bear swords that could do harm to a powerful demon(type VI) which they helped Mordenkainen defeat.

    Small glitch with 3.5e then, since you now need a cold iron GOOD weapon to harm a Balor, while they are LN...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:47 pm  

    Ceb, maybe you can verify this since you seem to know something about Artifact of Evil, but Chris Siren's "Gord's Greyhawk" webpage describes Felnorith as elven - http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/flanpc.html#felnorith. It says nothing about Eraj but there is an Evag who is described in the same way as Eraj listed right above the info on Felnorith whose description pretty much matches Eraj. He also is described as "elfin."
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:55 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    I had the impression they were sort of protectors of small manors within the Yatils valleys protected by Mordenkainen, hence the "lord" titles, but probably they're just bodyguards that live in the obsidian citadel.
    Besides, has anyone really detailed Mordenkainen's home in the Yatils?


    "Lord" probably refers to their level title, although in 1e and 2e (I think, I pretty much skipped to 3e from 1e) part of having that level and title meant you could clear a region of wilderness and attract a body of followers, so they could be "lords" in that sense also, while still being vassals of Mordy.

    Someone detailing the Obsidian Citadel sounds like a great idea. Maybe an Obsidian Citadel themed postfest?
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:36 pm  
    Eraj and Felnorith: Postfest

    Considering the newest PostFest topic is minor power groups ... The keeps of Felnorith and Eraj sounds like a strikingly good idea. Perhaps this thread will prompt someone to come up with an idea for it, or a penchant for writing!!

    Icarus
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:31 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    both bear swords that could do harm to a powerful demon(type VI) which they helped Mordenkainen defeat.

    Small glitch with 3.5e then, since you now need a cold iron GOOD weapon to harm a Balor, while they are LN...


    Well, of course, but there is no problem- unique blades created by Mordy to kill outer planar things. Archmages do that kind of thing. The DMG(and other books) are a guide, not a cage. The books are mostly AD&D 1e relevant anyways, and any rules contradictions should be handled as the DM wishes if they want to put some GordHawk stuff into their Greyhawk, particularly if the rules don't translate seemlessly into later rules editions.

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Ceb, maybe you can verify this since you seem to know something about Artifact of Evil, but Chris Siren's "Gord's Greyhawk" webpage describes Felnorith as elven - http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/flanpc.html#felnorith. It says nothing about Eraj but there is an Evag who is described in the same way as Eraj listed right above the info on Felnorith whose description pretty much matches Eraj. He also is described as "elfin."


    Eraj and Felnorith are desribed as "fighting men" and "brave men" and "all (three) men". There is no mention of either being non-human whatsoever. These could still be generic references to their male status though. Turns of phrase so to speak so as to not have to write "the fighting man and fighting male elf","they were a brave man and male elf" and "the two men and the male elf", which are just plain awkward. EGG wrote it properly and didn't mention Felnorith being an elf as explaining too much about him adds nothing to the story anyways.

    Chris Siren's site references an old AOL post by E.G.G. Perhaps that is where the "elfin" bit of information comes from. I know not.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
    CF Admin

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    Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:58 pm  

    IIRC, both figures were also part of Gary's original Citadel of Eight PC group.
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    Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:37 am  

    I found this:
    Quote:
    Actually there is on Page #21 of Folks, Feuds and Factions it
    mentions that both Lords Eraj and Felnorith who serve Mordenkainen ride
    trained Griffons.

    On card #9 from the COG boxed set there is an adventure called
    Griffon Hunt, a Griffon nest is located in the hils surrounding the Bright Desert.

    in the Greyhawk-L Archive

    And this on Grodogs Gary Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" Archive site:
    Quote:
    318 (April 2004) What's in a Name? Call it Whatever, But it Still Smells Sweet Gygax describes his various PCs, in order of creation:
    Yrag, the fighter
    Mordenkainen, the MU
    Felnorith, the fighter sidekick to Yrag
    Elven twins, Vram and Vin, fighter/MUs to accompany Mordenkainen
    Mordy charms Bigby when Bigby is a 3rd level MU, which starts Rob's -igby naming trend for Gary's henchmen ;-)
    Zigby the dwarf
    Rigby the cleric
    Sigby Griggbyson, a fighter
    Bigby's apprentice, Nigby
    Digby, Mordenkainen's new apprentice
    Gygax broke Kuntz's spell by hiring Hughie, Dewey, and Louie as three new low-level MU apprentices =)


    Last edited by Thanael on Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:38 am  

    I'm not sure if Eraj was intended to be the same as Yrag or not. Gygax occasionally did things like that with the transposition of letters.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:42 am  

    Another interesting find:

    Quote:
    Yrag
    Race: Human; Class: Fighter; Level: 19; Alignment: Neutral
    Yrag was the first character Gary created. He appears as a stout and hardy man, flaxen haired, and normally dressed in gray and green robes. He stands over 6' tall and is very broad-shouldered. Yrag is ever watchful of things about him, and usually prefers no new undertakings unless these are shared with those persons he knows and trusts.

    [...]

    Felnorith
    Race: Human; Class: Fighter; Level: Circa 12; Alignment: Neutral
    Felnorith is known as the Sword Collector, and he has a large collection of magical blades.
    from http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=34464
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:41 am  

    Yeah, you'd probably have to ask ScottyG if Felnorith being human came from Gygax, although he seems to be indicating that all that info came from him. If Ceb is right about the "Gord's Greyhawk" elvish ref being from ian AOL post by Gygax, it wouldn't really be the first time Gygax contradicted himself or just reworked a different version. E & F in "Artifact of Evil" could be a melding of the two with the elven twins Vin and Vram. Who knows? It all may have come from Gygax's noodle, God bless him! Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:20 pm  

    I'm not sayin the "elfin" bit is right at all, just that if it comes from anywhere, it may have come from the old AOL stuff. I really don't know, and I don't think it is in the Best of the AOL files either. Maybe somebody still has all of the old AOL files and can check.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:13 am  

    Gygax wasn't on the old AOL boards. I believe that particular info comes from a World of Greyhawk Fanclub list, rather than from Gygax directly.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:11 pm  

    I don't mean that Gygax was on the AOL boards either, but others were who were in communication with him. The info may have been passed to the AOL boards. That's all.
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    Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:34 am  

    Yrag appears as a pregen human PC in WG5, and I've never heard that he was made elvish, FWIW.

    If Eraj and Felnorith are "Lords" that suggests that they're at least 9th level fighters (per level titles), and would also strongly imply that they're not elves.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:44 pm  

    How does the term "Lords" strongly imply either not being elves? Elves can be "Lords", dwarves can be "Lords"; half-eves can be "Lords", half-orcs can be "Lords"; heck, even halflings can be "Lords". Sure, some of them need buffed stats to get there in 1e Unearthed Arcana rules, but it's possibility is still there. Lords means level 9+ too. They could be 19th level. I think they were givne a leve of 12 so as to make them capable, but not so powerful as to be on par with their master. Yrag hangs with the likes of Mordy as a peer; these guys are the servants of such.

    Besides, the name "Felnorith" does seem to have a little bit of that mincing elfin sound to it. Wink
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    GreySage

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    Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:33 pm  

    Since these are among the oldest D&D characters ever, they would presumedly have been created with the original D&D rules, rather than the ones found in Unearthed Arcana. Original D&D elves were typically multi-classed as both Fighting-Men and Magic-Users, which would have made them Wizard-Lords rather than simply Lords if they somehow rose to those levels. Elves were limited to the level of Hero-Warlock in White Box D&D, but might have risen higher later on as the rules were relaxed. Even so, I think Gygax would have likely used the same character sheet without retconning Felnorith's wizard levels away.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:20 am  

    Oh well this is ridicolously desperate, but I tried emailing Rob Kuntz about this. Maybe he actually played together with those characters (or more likely, DMed them).
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:45 pm  

    [quote=&quot;rasgon&quot;]Since these are among the oldest D&amp;D characters ever, they would presumedly have been created with the original D&amp;D rules, rather than the ones found in Unearthed Arcana.[/quote]

    Of course this would be the case if the characters are indeed that old.&nbsp; My reasoning&nbsp;is&nbsp;based on the context of these characters being mentioned in the&nbsp;Gord books which are written in keeping with 1e/UA, as is evidenced by the game information&nbsp;given for Chert,&nbsp;Gord, etc.&nbsp;at the end of Saga of Old City.&nbsp;&nbsp;The title &quot;Lord&quot; can be applied to leve 9+ fighters of many races in that edition of the rules.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:20 am  

    Answers from EGG Jr.

    "Felnoreth (sp) was my dads primary fighter lackey when he played in Rob Kuntz's game which later was added and incorporated into Greyhawk. He was a human."

    No info on Eraj, tho:

    "If you mean Erac he was a human MU who made it to Warlock and then starved to death in my dads Greyhawk Pool Level. Erac's cousin inharited the money and then a month or so later I with a small group found my body, looted the items figured out the escape method, looking up at the ceiling sayiing the Star-Lite Star-Bright... and wosh to the surface. Taht character later turned evil and obtained an imp and some notoriety."
    GreySage

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    Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:46 pm  

    If Ernie Gygax doesn't recognize the name Eraj, it seems likely he wasn't part of the original campaign. My bet is that Eraj was originally just a variant spelling of Yrag.

    Because their descriptions have (in post-Gygaxian canon) subsequently diverged, I think I'd make him Yrag's son. But that's me.
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    Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:42 pm  

    Brian---

    Rip stated my logic/reasoning for the "Lords" reference: I was presuming no later than PHB (1977) vs. UA (1985) for the character level limits, perhaps even OD&D (7th and 4th respectively).

    Thanks for the info from Luke; I'll definitely be curious to hear what Rob has to say, too!

    Perhaps Eraj was a pseudonym that Yrag used in play?
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    Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:00 am  

    Wonderful gems of EGG Lore:

    "I'm sorry but I cannot assist you with the character Eraj. If he really existed he was not one of my father's 4 main characters. I believe I played the only elf in Rob's game and I adventured a few times with my pop, but mostly we adventured alone in Rob's games. I was still in school and had a bed time then. My dad would ge to play when I was sulking in bed due to the evil mother!

    My dad went on to gather a huge army of thousands of light horsemen, very much like a Mongol hoard. About a thousand lancers and 4 thousand horsearchers. He would pay magic users all over for +1 arrows so that they could take down whatever Rob threw at them."
    GreySage

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    Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:52 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    "I'm sorry but I cannot assist you with the character Eraj. If he really existed he was not one of my father's 4 main characters."


    Who would those be? Yrag, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Riggby?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:47 pm  

    If not then they are at lest important characters, as Gary described them in WG5 as 4 of the 8 folks that the Citadel of Eight is named in reference to.
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