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    Canonfire :: View topic - The 10 Things of Greyhawk
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    The 10 Things of Greyhawk
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:53 am  
    The 10 Things of Greyhawk

    Hey all, I'm working up a Greyhawk campaign and have a question for this esteemed body. At the beginning of the 3.0/3.5 setting books such as Eberron and Forgotten Realms (and now the 4.0 FR player's guide) they list the "10 Things you should know about x (insert setting name)." If you were to make that list for Greyhawk, what would it look like?[/b]
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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:16 am  
    Re: The 10 Things of Greyhawk

    Is this asking what are the 10 things that have changed in Greyhawk with the edition change, or what are the 10 iconic things about Greyhawk?

    If the latter, I believe there is already at least one Oerth Journal article that states this rather well. But, here's a list off the top of my head.

    1 - detail-light
    2 - content and timeline primarily adventure/module-driven (as opposed to supplements)
    3 - magic scarcity
    4 - little-to-no direct god involvement
    5 - rarity of non-standard magic/technology (wild magic, gunpowder, psionics, spelljamming, etc.)
    6 - balance-themed
    7 - human-centric
    8 - cross-species fertility limited to rare magical experimentation
    9 - average NPC level is mid-low (5-7th level)
    10 - characters assist powerful NPCs, not the other way around
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:36 am  
    Re: The 10 Things of Greyhawk

    IronGolem wrote:
    Is this asking what are the 10 things that have changed in Greyhawk with the edition change, or what are the 10 iconic things about Greyhawk?

    If the latter, I believe there is already at least one Oerth Journal article that states this rather well. But, here's a list off the top of my head.


    The latter. I'll have to search through those Oerth Journals and see if I can find. In the Guide's for Eberron (EB) and Forgotten Realms (FR) the idea was to give the players/readers a quick idea of what the world was like and how it was different from other campaign settings.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:36 pm  

    Example from Eberron original version (edited down by me):

    Ten Things You Need To Know

    1) If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron. Monsters, magic, etc.

    2) Tone and attitude. Basically medieval plus swashbuckling. Alignment gives a general gauge of attitude and are not hard and fast.

    3) A world of magic. Magic has developed as tech.

    4) A world of adventure.

    5) The Last War has ended - sort of.

    6) The Five Nations. The human dominated nations of the world.

    7) A world of intrigue.

    8) Dragonmark dynasties. Barons of industry in Eberron - corporations in fantasy.

    9) Dragonshards. Magic stones, gems and crystals naturally produced by the world.

    10) New races. Changelings, kalashtar, shifters and warforged.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:34 pm  
    Re: The 10 Things of Greyhawk

    fictionalbeing wrote:

    The latter. I'll have to search through those Oerth Journals and see if I can find.


    I poked around and couldn't find the article I was thinking of, so perhaps it never made it into an Oerth Journal. This might be it:

    http://www.geocities.com/jsage_1974/Greathawk.htm
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:41 pm  

    Thanks IronGolem,

    That's a great post by NightScreed (as was your listing of things you feel make Greyhawk what it is) and will go into my own 7-8 things "That You Need To Know" that I will post here (as soon as I finish erasing and re-writing) and eventually hand out to my players.

    Anyone else?
    GreySage

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:17 pm  

    Greyhawk is only detail-light in comparison to the Forgotten Realms; by any sane standard, it's an incredibly detailed (one could easily think over-detailed) campaign setting, burdened with 30 years of canon. The thing about it being module-driven might have been true in 1986, but is undercut by the many detailed supplements from Greyhawk Adventures on. Greyhawk is also a very magic-heavy setting in many ways, because D&D in general is magic-heavy across all editions, generally much heavier than in the fantasy fiction that inspired it. It only comes across as magic-light in comparison to insanely over-magicked settings like FR. The divine involvement question has been debated elsewhere, but any setting that has an incarnate demigod ruling large parts of it (and that doesn't even count Wastri, who has his own fiefdom in the Flanaess) doesn't qualify for this. I would argue that psionics are much more common on Oerth than they are in any other official D&D setting save Dark Sun; no other setting has so many psionics-related deities integrated into it, or so much psionics implied in its major cultures. Spelljamming seems as common on Oerth as anywhere else, save an actual Spelljamming campaign (which can be based on Oerth, of course). Balance is one possible theme in a Greyhawk campaign, and I think this one is pretty good, although it's not as strong a theme as it is in Dragonlance and it's possible to dispense with the idea entirely and still have a recognizable Greyhawk campaign. The issue of cross-species fertility is rarely addressed in Greyhawk supplements, but there are plenty of half-elves and half-orcs (not to mention cambions and alu-demons) who seem to have been produced the old-fashioned way, losels can be produced without magical interference, and there's nothing that says half-dragons, genasi, and other hybrids don't exist on Oerth. The average NPC level on Oerth is actually 1st level, and Oerth's average level is still significantly higher than Eberron's (though lower than Forgotten Realms, Mystara, and Dark Sun). As for #10, well, that's generally good advice in any setting, but I agree that Greyhawk has stuck to it better than the Realms have.

    Still, it'd be nice to have a list that actually mentioned something that was specifically true in Greyhawk and wasn't designed mainly to compare it to the Realms. If the Forgotten Realms setting didn't exist, what would Greyhawk's prominent features be?

    My list would be something like:

    1. Greyhawk is classic D&D. The nine-point alignment system, monsters, and the basic races and character classes (including exotic ones like monks, assassins, and psionics-users) as they existed in the Player's Handbook from OD&D to 3rd edition are all elements the setting was built around from the beginning. In Greyhawk you'll find grey elves, mountain dwarves, tallfellow halflings, xvarts, demons, devils, devas, paladins, drow, berserkers, werebears, lizard men, kobolds, and orcs. Some call it "vanilla," but D&D is a pretty distinctive, heady combination and not every setting that calls itself D&D embraces it all. Greyhawk does. It's the setting that D&D was built around, and been the "default" setting for longer than any other. Greyhawk doesn't apologize for being D&D; it doesn't flinch from integrating kung-fu mystics or calling its orcs and drow evil or its elves and gold dragons good. Not only are psionics part of the setting, but Greyhawk has two gods, Zuoken and Xan Yae, with psionics as part of their portfolio. Four gods if you count Delleb (associated with psionics in the Player's Guide) and Ilsensine (the monstrous illithid deity). Greyhawk has places for sedentary, hobbit-like halflings, major gnomish nations, Spelljammer ports if you want them, a god for xvarts for Pete's sake, and it doesn't winge and moan and whine about how it may be D&D but without all the yucky classic stuff that's made D&D what it was for decades. Neither does it say anywhere you can't play your half-dragon celestial monk/paladin. The classic 17 outer planes and 18 inner planes have their natural home centered on Oerth, and nobody's ever tried to retcon them away.

    2. The conflict between Law and Chaos is significant, not just Good and Evil. There are opportunities in a campaign set in the Flanaess for the PCs to oppose overweening Order or Anarchy without any particular moral slant. Groups like the Pale, the church of St. Cuthbert, the ancient Wind Dukes of Aaqa, or even Greyhawk, Nyrond, and Furyondy may act in Order's interests in ways that the PCs deem harmful without being actually evil; contrariwise, the forces of Chaos may include groups like the Bandit Kingdoms, the Wild Coast, the church of Trithereon, Greyhawk City again, wild elves, slaadi, and other forces that must from time to time be opposed as they grow too threatening for order to survive.

    3. Okay, Balance. Not an essential part of the campaign, and perhaps not as prominent as in Dragonlance, but one found again and again even in the From the Ashes era.

    4. Greyhawk has an honest-to-evil demigod conquering large swathes of it. Iuz is Greyhawk's version of Sauron if you need one, and if anything he's worse than Sauron ever was. Far from being a place where the gods aren't allowed to interfere, one particular god is causing a lot of trouble in the Flanaess. Others, from mischievous Zagyg to intolerant Wastri to dreaming Tharizdun, are waiting in the wings to cause their own brands of havoc.

    5. Intolerance and bigotry are one of Greyhawk's major themes, from demihuman-hating Wastri to the intolerant churches of St. Cuthbert and Pholtus to the xenophobic grey elves to the racist Scarlet Brotherhood, there are plenty of places where the theme is explored - and the bigots aren't necessarily the bad guys, though they often are. Sometimes they're neutral, and sometimes they're even good, if misguided, and can be allies of the heroes.

    6. Greyhawk is mid-to-high magic. Not insanely so, but it's a place where adventurers will often have multiple magic items (if not piles of them in some campaigns) to call their own, where spells beyond 9th level are possible, where magic once destroyed half the continent and imprisoned gods, where strange minerals and stones and oerthblood and cauldrons of night hum with magic, where demons erect flying castles in Almor, where mad demigods build dungeons full of unpredictable magic effects and shifting rooms, where the Scarlet Brotherhood breeds abominations, where the smallest hamlets have clerics who can work what we would call in our world miracles. Even so, another theme in Greyhawk is that magic may, in the future, fade away. This fate may potentially be prevented by the PCs, but it lies there waiting, a specter of a future that might yet come to pass.

    7. Greyhawk has an undercurrent of lost technology. From pistol-wielding quasi-deities to arcane machines operated by mad barons to crashed starships, Greyhawk has some science fantasy mixed in with its medieval fantasy. Mostly these elements exist on the margins, ready to surprise characters who have grown used to the generally medieval setting, but it's there.

    8. Greyhawk is medieval and human-centered. It's not Renaissance, steampunk, or magitech. With some exceptions, its technology would be recognizable to visitors from our medieval Earth. Most of the major nations are ruled by humans, with some exceptions. While one might encounter a scattering of demihumans and demihuman enclaves in many major human cities, monstrous races are for the most part banished to the wilderness except in evil or particularly open-minded areas.

    9. Greyhawk is classic fantasy. D&D's roots in Lieber and Tolkien and Lovecraft and Vance and Moorcock and Smith and Howard show more clearly on Oerth than on many worlds, undisguised by layers of material created by designers who have never heard of them.

    10. Oerth is a world on the knife's edge of doom. All the talk of balance often ignores why it's necessary: Greyhawk contains forces that might destroy it if either side were to upset the delicate Mexican standoff between the major cosmic forces. A mysterious stone clock counts down to Doomsday. Mad cultists plot to unleash one or several entities that might tear the world apart. Magic might fade away. Graz'zt plots to pull the planet screaming into the Abyss. Kyuss hopes to bring about an Age of Worms. There are factions on Oerth who play for keeps.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:04 pm  

    That is a pretty good list of generalizations and explanations regarding Greyhawk. I'm not too keen on two of the articles that have been witten about what defines Greyhawk, as the points given are usually only generalizations without decently supported explantions, and as such can be applied to so many other campaign settings that they fail in their goal of supposed enlightenment regard what defines Greyhawk.

    I'd only add in way of disagreement with Iron Golem that magic is by no means scarce as presented in Greyhawk material. It is more scarce currently compared to Greyhawk's past, but even in its present state there is still a noticable amount of it. Of course one must understand that in Greyhawk's past spellcasters were oblitering entire nations with cooperative magic whereas currently they no longer have the ability to do that. Even though magic is not being used as much, or to the same effect now as it once was, magic is still around; mainly in that there are a good number of spelll casters presnt in the supplements and that lots of NPCs have at least some magic items; even the low level NPCs. Of course that is actually built into the game(most every edition of it), so we can't really say that this is a defining point of Greyhawk and it fits rasgon's "Greyhawk is Classic D&D" and "Greyhawk is mid-to-high Magic" points very well. A bit more high magic was added in later Greyhawk supplements/modules than in the earlier ones, but even in the early stuff magic is by no means scarce- it is jut not quite so grandiose.

    There are literally official guilds for wizards in nearly every major city, and cities have laws specifically regarding magic use. For that to even be a reality wizards and clerics cannot be that scarce. Then there are a bazillion temples all over the place with clerics galore to be sure. Every temple has a spellcasting cleric of level 3+ at least(almost always of higher level than this, and by a large margin ), and even most small roadside chapels do too.

    However, even though these people and places exist in Greyhawk, they do not seem overemphasized in the setting. Surely some are, the Circle of Eight for instance, but most nations are ruled by non spellcasters and most common folk don't even know of the Circle of Eight or of the most widely reknowned spellcasters because they are only widely reknowned among their peers or in the area of which they are from. I make an effort to represent this by minimalizing spellcasters in my campaign, for instance by keeping wizard guild membership comparatively low and its members seldom in attendence, except for special gatherings(wizards are mostly loners and do their own things). Likewise such guilds don't have loads of magic itms for sale- usually just potions and maybe few scrolls.

    As to the churches, most of them will indeed have spell casting clerics of decent level, but I go out of my way to replace many of the lower clergy with lay priests- common, yet pious, folk who serve the flock but that have no actual divine gift of spell casting. Being an actuall spellcasting cleric is akin to being specially chosen of your god to be vessel for their divine power. You don't get to be one of these special folks by completing a 12-step program and taking a holy oath at the end of it. It is not that simple. Otherwise you'd have whole congregations of clerics. Laughing
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:49 pm  

    I tried this topic with just 5 things that define Greyhawk:
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3027&highlight=&sid=8df431e946e28da21730cd0e2f506aee

    But, Greyhawk is a tabla rasa for many of us and we project upon it our own biases and experiences.

    Ask each us what is Greyhawk and you will get different answers from each and everyone of us (that is to say we will agree on some or many things, but not all things).

    Your list of 10 is going to depend on how you shape your world. I would think about the story of your version of Greyhawk and then make your 10.

    The best advice I can give to you for making your own list of 10 things you need to know about Greyhawk is: Make sure each of the 10 states what Greyhawk is, not what it isn't.

    I think this is the major failure of Nightscreed's list.

    My two coppers,

    ~~Saracenus
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    Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:40 am  

    First, thanks to all of you for replying. Even though I started playing D&D in the late 70's in Greyhawk, I've learned a lot I didn't know (or remember) just from your postings! Happy I took a break from D&D from 1e up until the release of 3e and again up until the release of 4e. So, there is much for me to learn!

    Saracenus, loved your topic/post - you did a much more erudite and succinct version of what I was trying to get at. Though you and others may have disagreed with Nightscreeds version - I think we all appreciate the work and thought that he put into it - and the obvious love he has for the Greyhawk setting, which you all obviously share.

    I'm still working out what my "list of things" will be, but I am approaching it from a standpoint of nothing is sacrosanct. I want to distill what is best about Greyhawk - in comparison to other commercial D&D settings - and yet re-invigorate it for a new generation of players (all my players are younger than myself and were weaned on FR). I know this will be heresy to some and probably won't go far enough for others! Happy

    -S.
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    Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:41 pm  

    I'm not going to get real SUPER detailed here.

    1. Humanocentric.
    2. Light (ish) detail.
    3. Site-based adventures rather than huge campaign arcs.
    4. Exploration-based. Adventures happen in out-of-the-way sites and there is much to be discovered.
    5. Borrows heavily from real world cultures.
    6. Magic scarce.
    7. National politics (as opposed to strictly alignment) are a constant theme. You should note that the Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic axis gets alot of play rather than just the Good/Neutral/Evil.
    8. The relative unimportance of adventurers as a social class.
    9. The relatively lower character levels of VERY important NPC's (apparently people who are trying to run a city do alot of things that don't earn xp....who'd have THUNK it?)
    10. Occasional doses of the nonsensical, just for the hell of it.

    Good luck, enjoy, have fun. Remember, if YOU'RE not driving THEM crazy you're not having fun! Happy
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:35 am  

    I wonder just how many DMs out there will be sig-ing a portion of that last line. Happy

    Come out of the wilderness a bit more often Ottarus. Wink
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    Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:53 pm  

    I live but to serve Oh Beloved Moderator...

    Please tip your bartenders and waitresses... Razz
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    Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:27 am  

    I feel one point is still missing, or perhaps it is subsumed in the classic D&D point (and to a degree in the classic fantasy one), but i think it bears spelling out more explicitly:

    Greyhawk is where the iconic spells and magic items and artifacts come from. Wonder who developed the Bigby's Grasping Hand, Melf's Acid Arrow, Mordenkainen's Disjunction spells? Bigby, Melf and Mordenkainen are contemporary NPCs in the Greyhawk campaign. The Hand & Eye of Vecna, the Sword of Kas? The story of Vecna and Kas are part of Greyhawk's ancient history. Coat of Arndt, Wave, Whelm, Blackrazor, Apparatus of Kwalish? All from Greyhawk.

    This also touches on the historical aspect or Greyhawk (and i mean history both in the setting and of D&D as a game).


    I feel that the classic fantasy bullet point needs some elaborating/examples if this is going to be an introduction piece, as many readers will not be aware of the difference between classic fantasy and high fantasy or whatever else.
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    Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:51 am  

    I'd just add this setting has been built "from the particular to the general", instead of the opposite, just like our first, genuine home-brewed adventures.

    As we grew up, grandiose schemes started to clutter our minds, and we started drawing hyper-detailed maps of entire worlds forgetting the original flavour of throwing characters straight into adventure. This trend has been followed by the whole game industry, so you now come up with settings that span several books, but give you no ideas at all.

    Well, Greyhawk is an endless source of ideas, much like the 1e DMG.
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    Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:31 am  

    I think the criticism that most people's lists of what Greyhawk is are reactive comparisons to other fantasy worlds is valid. I know that when I think about what I like about Greyhawk, I ask myself what made me stick with it as a setting instead of adopting a newer setting. Usually, it is because something about the new setting turned my stomach.

    But, there are things in Greyhawk that turned my stomach that I just ignored (Fate of Istus killing off all assassins, for instance), so there has to be something more that earned my loyalty. I think, as has already been said, it is the interweaving of the setting with the basic rules - Oerthian artifacts in the DMG, spells named after Oerthian wizards in the Player's Handbook, confronting a drow goddess from Deities and Demigods in an Oerthian adventure.

    This may have something to do with why I am reluctant to adopt new rules/content that seem more appropriate to new settings. Heh.
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    Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:54 am  
    My first rough pass at "What is Greyhawk?"

    Seven Important Facts about the World of Greyhawk for players.

    Note: this isn't "generic", but specific to my present planned Greyhawk campaign.

    What makes the World of Greyhawk (WOG) unique? Here are the key pieces of information about Greyhawk to bear in mind.

    Main Credo:Unlike many campaign worlds. The World of Greyhawk was not created by committee. It was not created to be balanced or internally consistent. It is an obvious hodge-podge of ideas from real history and the fantastic fiction of the pre 1980. Somehow those varied influences combined together to form a gaming world that is perhaps more conducive to fun play and the suspension of disbelief than many other more "well-constructed worlds."

    1. A world lit only by fire. Greyhawk is medieval in its own, unique way. There are no printing presses or railways. No dirigibles or bicycles, though these things may exist as one-offs from the mind of some mad mage. Greyhawk's technological evolution has been stunted by wars, invasion, godly interventions and fear. Magic replaces technology in many ways and as every decent person on Oerth knows, magic isn't safe.

    2. The World of Greyhawk is human centered. There are demi-humans (halflings, elves, dwarfs, etc.) and of course monsters, but in the end, the continent of Oerik is dominated by humans and human empires. I would liken it to the Star Wars universe, where there are many an alien but somehow the humans are still "in charge."

    3. Evil and chaos are ever present axis which turn the world. They are insidious, and relentless. Evil is not a concept on Oerth, it is a living breathing fact. A demi-god, part human, part demon and all evil rules the north of Oerik and strives to rule the rest. Chaos in the form of monsterous aberrations roam the dark lands between cities. The world sits on a teeter-totter, ready to plunge into the abyss.

    4. A world of dark magic. Magic exists and it is tainted. At least that's the belief of your average denizen of Oerik. How can they know different when the world is constantly besieged by dark forces weilding magic? Devils invading, demons possessing and mad mages releasing unimaginable horrors. Greyhawk is far from a magic poor world, in fact compared to others in the Chain of Five Worlds* it is the most magic rich and in fact magic was once far stronger on Oerth. Now, after the Great Destruction of a millenia past, magic has waned but like the moons it will one day wax again.

    5. A world of adventure. Greyhawk is vast and contains many mysteries. From the metropolis that the setting derives it's name from, to the perils of exotic Hepmonaland far to the south, if it is adventure that is desired, the World of Greyhawk has it in spades. But travel is not easy on Oerth and brings its own perils and dangers.

    6. A world at war. The evil demi-god Iuz wages war on the world. Chaos is at hand. From his fortress, Dorakaa: the City of Skulls, he has launched a tireless tide of war. His goal? To rule all the world. Only the strength of the good has halted his ambitions, but even that strength has limits and the tide has begun to turn. The rule of law and goodness of heart is not winning in Greyhawk.

    7. Few nations. Where there were once many nations, now the continent has been conquered and coalesced into only a few. The dark domain of Iuz, which now holds nearly all the north. The Lands of the Horn, which have swallowed the Shield Lands, Bandit Kingdoms and Tenh. The Great Kingdom of Aerdy to the south which has absorbed the Bone March and threatens the free Kingdom of Nyrond and the members of the Great Alliance. Only the western members of the Great Alliance hold Iuz at bay. And at the center of it all, the city of Greyhawk!

    8. Simularities to real nations and peoples. Oerth has peoples and nations which can easily be mapped to real world civilization and races. This is not a weakness of the setting, but a strength. Versimilitude is easily achieved by having concepts that are easily grasped. "Oh, these people are like vikings," makes for quickly and easily getting INTO the setting. These simularities are the begining of describing the peoples of Oearth - but not the end.

    9. A momentary lapse of reason. There are things which plainly do not make sense and are in play purely for the fun of it or the "WTF." These things separate Greyhawk from most settings. So, yes, there is a god of the gun named Murlynd and his representation looks an awful lot like Clint Eastwood. Sounds silly, but Stephen King has gotten a lot of mileage (and money) out of the idea.

    *Gygax conceptually had the idea (do an internet search) that Oerth was one of five worlds (including our Earth) that were on seperate planes of existence, but that had gates, which linked them together.
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    Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:55 am  
    Re: My first rough pass at "What is Greyhawk?"

    fictionalbeing wrote:

    *Gygax conceptually had the idea (do an internet search) that Oerth was one of five worlds (including our Earth) that were on seperate planes of existence, but that had gates, which linked them together.


    "Hey look, a Dungeons & Dragons ride!" *Shudder*

    Good analases guys.
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    Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:58 am  

    While listening to The Tome Show I was struck by the answer to a question late into the podcast involving Greyhawk and 4e (see excerpted transcript below).

    Basically, I don't think we will see a 4e Greyhawk unless there are some changes made to the campaign.

    How does this tie into 10 things about Greyhawk? Its James' response that makes me the most doubtful about this campaign being updated.

    Excerpt from The Tome Show 106: 4e One Year Later
    http://thetome.podbean.com/2009/06/10/the-tome-ep-106-4e-one-year-later/

    Geoffrey D. Winn (the Tome contributor): I actually want to ask more questions about campaign settings. My question is that a lot of the classic campaign settings cover the same ground, the same themes, the same design space.

    I am talking about Greyhawk, Mystara. They all have the same high fantasy vibe that the Forgotten Realms has. So, I am wondering how you would design and market these settings so they stand out to someone that might not be familiar with how great they are.

    Chris Perkins: That is an awesome question.

    When we look at the campaign settings that we have done before and might consider doing again, one of the first questions we ask is “what makes this campaign setting stand on its own? What are the legs or pillars that hold it up?” And if we cannot come up with good answers for those then often those campaign settings kind of languish in a no-mans-land until somebody comes up with a really a really cool concept that differentiates it from Eberron, from Forgotten Realms.

    Greyhawk is a great setting. One of its major drawbacks is that it really feels like a core D&D setting, it is so core a D&D setting that you have to really look at it and pry into it to see what is it about this world that is different from all the other worlds that we want to do.

    James Wyatt: One of the ways I like to think about campaign settings is, there is a two page spread in the Dungeon Masters Guide that talks about the core assumptions of the D&D World. And then it goes on to talk about what happens if you start to mess with those when designing your own world. And I think for a published campaign setting to be compelling it’s got to start monkeying around with those in some way to distinguish it from not just other settings but also the baseline D&D experience.

    So, speaking as the design manager I am never gonna settle for my design team saying, “Well its pretty much like this other thing.” I am going to push them to differentiate it and find new and exciting directions for whatever setting we decide to do.

    Chris Perkins: The other thing too is, you can push a setting so far but if you push it too hard it ceases to become that setting in a lot of people’s minds. So there is a bit of a tightrope to walk.

    Jeff Greiner (the Tome Host): I know we saw some of that tightrope with the new version of the Forgotten Realms, I imagine.

    Chris Perkins: Boy, you sure did.

    Jeff Greiner: Because that was a realm shaking event that shakes all realm shaking events.

    Chris Perkins: Ah, I think that debate still wages, I mean we didn’t have gods stomping on farms or anything like that. It was a sort of different sort of revolution for the campaign setting that was driven as much by where we were going with the novels as where we were going with the game. That world was so explored that Forgotten Realms was almost a misnomer.

    Jeff Greiner: Well for what it’s worth I have been playing a 4th edition Forgotten Realms games since 4th edition was launched and we have been having a blast in it.

    Chris Perkins: That’s great to hear.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

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    Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:46 am  

    Sometimes brilliant people can't see the forest for the trees Sad

    Don't spend time and effort trying to find a clever means to twist campaign worlds to become fresh simply exploit their strengths. GH the core campaign world with its rich history. Rather then see this as a weakness instead use it.

    Instead of gimmicks like "grafting" on exciting new classes and races explore the campaign setting lore. Within its long history is endless hanging threads and incomplete partial ideas that were never fully utilized because GH as the core campaign tested ideas and evolved naturally.

    Before this become a soap box for the merits of the races and classes; I am not against them. These additions can be successfully incorporated into GH. GH has numerous areas where their presence could be easily placed in part because of the freedom GH provides.

    The point is GH as it is has so much to explore in terms of lore was it neccessary to add these additions. I suspect the designers never really looked other then a cursory glance at the true potential of GH before creating new cool stuff to reinvent the campaign.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2006
    Posts: 336
    From: Barony of Trellwood, The Great Kingdom

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    Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:58 pm  

    Crag,

    And I will counter that we (yes, I include myself in this) are not a large market on which to hang the sales of an entire campaign on.

    Sure, we love lore but the average gamer doesn't. I learned this lesson by playing in Living Greyhawk for 5+ years. If a Greyhawk product is going to do well it needs to appeal beyond its base (us).

    Also, I have noticed that a lot of folks define Greyhawk by what it is not (FR, Eberron, etc.) or play on the nostalgia of their childhood (Its where ToEE and Castle Greyhawk were born!) as a defining trait. That is not a descriptor of a game worlds story and most certainly is not a hook to bring in new DMs and players. WotC will need new blood to succeed.

    There is no way that WotC is going to encompass nearly 35 years of lore into 3 books and some eDragon & eDungeon support. By this model something is going to have to give.

    If WotC is going to use Greyhawk they are going to distill it down to its essence. In addition, their model is inclusion of Core Material and that means lots of stuff that didn't exist in previous lore is going to get incorporated.

    What does it matter anyway WotC is looking for something that is different from Core 4e and Greyhawk is not it. I don't see it as a 4e campaign setting any time soon. So all this railing about something that has not happened is beyond pointless.

    My Two Coppers,

    ~~Saracenus
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 04, 2003
    Posts: 156
    From: Nyrond

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    Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:05 pm  

    I hope WotC doesn't publish a 4th edition Greyhawk Sourcebook.

    It saddens me that Greyhawk has for so long been treated as an unwanted step-child by WotC but its better than having them trash the world with ill-conceived adjustments to make it "Core"

    I actually liked forgotten realms enough to overlook the "time of troubles" to explain the last conversion, but this 'two planets collide while a spell plague ravishes the land...' Ya, like I want WotC touching Greyhawk with the hands that did that to the Realms.

    Fortunately the Greyhawk shake-ups (Fate of Istus, the Wars, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and such) happened before WotC or early in WotC when Erik Mona, Sean Reynolds, and such people were around and given a voice.

    Greyhawk is better served by us, the people who care about it, with things like this website, the Oerth Journal, Denis Tetreault's webrings, and other such efforts that keep the world alive for all of us.
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