This is excellent work and the most persuasive case I've read. Article please.
Thanks, GVD, & others. The fact is, I came across this info while researching an extensive article attempting to chronicle the history of Vecna. It currently stands at 30+ pages, with a 2-page bibliography, and over 100 footnotes. I hope to have it ready in time for the October OJ.
I noticed that, too. I think Sam did have the Book of Artifacts, but was discounting it as a reliable source because it contradicts Vecna Lives! in places. For example, Vecna Lives! says that the Revolt of the Yaheetes was in the Dreadwood, while Book of Artifacts says the rebellion was crushed by the Malachite Throne (implying it happened in the Great Kingdom).
And, as you said, Vecna Lives! implies the artifacts were always together, while the Book of Artifacts only mentions the Hand. And the Paladin-King of Miro from VL becomes Miro the Paladin-King in the BoA.
Of course, both these sources were written by the same author, so I suspect that David "Zeb" Cook was intentionally introducing variations in order to suggest the idea of conflicting rumors and legends that no one alive knows the truth of.
Of course, the "Malachite Throne" reference could just as easily have been a mistake--Cook was very busy in the early 90s. It is also possible that he was trying to correct the inference that both artifacts were always together (VL, 22), when VL also states that the items were never used by the same host more than twice (p. 70).
Another apparent mistake Cook made was stating that the artifacts “are items that have existed for thousands of years or even longer” (p. 70)." I, however, have seen this as an opportunity to make lemonade, and am using this to reconcile the apparent loss of Vecna's parts in Vecna: Hand of the Revenant with accounts of him losing the parts in battle with Kas.
Where does this speculation originate? Is it from Mona's proposed list of demigods?
Erik Mona was actually very against including Vecna among the list of demigods when I mentioned it to him on ENWorld - he didn't like the idea that Castle Greyhawk had two Big Bads in it, Vecna and Iuz.
The speculation was originally Gary Holian's.
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Actually, the Planescape Campaign Setting: A DM Guide to the Planes says Vecna seized Cavitius "eons ago" (p. 37)
Yeah, you have to take into account that the Doomguard is only a little over 600 years old, though, according to The Factol's Manifesto (page 40, see also the age of the Great Upheaval on 102 and elsewhere). This is later canon, though, which Zeb Cook wouldn't have been aware of.
Of course, I prefer in my own speculations to assume that the Doomguard that formed 600-odd years ago during the Great Upheaval was a reborn version of a much older organization that might indeed have been eons old.
Another apparent mistake Cook made was stating that the artifacts “are items that have existed for thousands of years or even longer” (p. 70)." I, however, have seen this as an opportunity to make lemonade, and am using this to reconcile the apparent loss of Vecna's parts in Vecna: Hand of the Revenant with accounts of him losing the parts in battle with Kas.
I'm of the opinion that Cook did not make a mistake, and that the artifacts are indeed extremely old. it seems the various later authors have deiced to pick and choose what they want to use, and how they want to use it. The 1e DMG gives little information on the artifacts, and it is only in the 2e DMG that we get a whole chunk of information regarding the artifacts' history:
*Paladin-King of Miro. The king was already the king, alredy having, or soon to be having an arm stump, who came into possession of the Hand and was eventually destroyed by it. This leads me away from the squire being the Paladin-King of Miro, but rather the squire is just someone who delivered the Hand into the king's keeping. I prefer Miro as a land, not a person's name, as along with Tyrus, it places the artifacts in far flung places outside of the Flanaess.
Tyrus is a city on the "western shore". We're probably not talking the shore of a lake here, but of an ocean, so not anywhere in the Flanaess.
"Yemishite Assassin". Lots of tidbits in just the 2e DMG. I haven't read it in such a long time. Fun stuff! _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Let's face it: some of those old designers either didn't do their homework or just wanted to put their own spin on things. In some cases they completely changed "the facts" because they thought their version was better. So I support the OP. It's coherent, it works IMC, and it's at least as true to canon as anything Cook ever wrote.
My 2cp.
Oh, and I second GVD's request: article please - very interested in a history of Vecna these days.
it seems the various later authors have deiced to pick and choose what they want to use, and how they want to use it.
This was necessary, though, since Vecna Lives! gives us a couple of contradictory hints about the artifacts' age within the same work.
Page 7 says: "In the millennium and centuries that have passed, these three objects have resurfaced time and again." Presumedly, then, this is less than 2,000 years, contradicting the "items that have existed for thousands of years or even longer" notion from page 70.
The description of the Chronicle of Secret Times on page 22 gives us a more definite time frame than the ambiguous talk of millennia and centuries elsewhere, though.
"Early in the Chronicle, Uhas describes the coming of the Neheli family from the ancient Suel lands. A good portion of the first chapter describes the struggles between the Neheli and the previous lord, the Whispered One, Lord Vecna, and his lieutenant, Kas."
This description fixes the date pretty definitely after the Rain of Colorless Fire (after the Neheli left the ancient Suel lands) and in the Flanaess (which is where the Neheli went, and where Uhas was writing - and if this wasn't clear, a previous paragraph on the same page notes that this is "what is now Keoland.") At this time, Vecna and Kas are still corporeal and active in the Sheldomar Valley. If Uhas' writing isn't entirely spurious, I think it makes the most sense to go with this timeframe.
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*Paladin-King of Miro. The king was already the king, already having, or soon to be having an arm stump, who came into possession of the Hand and was eventually destroyed by it. This leads me away from the squire being the Paladin-King of Miro, but rather the squire is just someone who delivered the Hand into the king's keeping. I prefer Miro as a land, not a person's name, as along with Tyrus, it places the artifacts in far flung places outside of the Flanaess.
Tyrus is a city on the "western shore". We're probably not talking the shore of a lake here, but of an ocean, so not anywhere in the Flanaess.
Kudos for thinking to look in the DMG! I had assumed the content there was much the same as in later works, but there is indeed a wealth of detail there. I had completely forgotten that Vecna II had a name at one point: Mace the outlaw. He might have been an elf; the text doesn't specify his race.
Still, I disagree with your analysis. Page 22 of Vecna Lives! says Tyrus was "believed to have been somewhere on the Pomarj coast." The Pomarj certainly has a western shore, and on the Azure Sea, not a lake. There aren't any cities there today, but the opposite end of the peninsula from Blue constitutes the western side. Perhaps Tyrus was located down the river from where Ostrand Keep is on Anna's map, or near the lair of the Purple Squid Hobgoblins.
Actually, it looks a bit too hilly near Ostrand Keep to build a prosperous settlement, but I imagine if a site is good enough for hobgoblins, it was good enough for humans. So Tyrus was probably in what are now the Purple Squid lands.
Vecna Lives! says only that the location of Miro hasn't been identified, so it could be outside of the Flanaess, or it could be a small state that no longer exists.
I have no idea what a Yemishite assassin might have been, though. It sounds Baklunish, doesn't it?
Another apparent mistake Cook made was stating that the artifacts “are items that have existed for thousands of years or even longer” (p. 70)." I, however, have seen this as an opportunity to make lemonade, and am using this to reconcile the apparent loss of Vecna's parts in Vecna: Hand of the Revenant with accounts of him losing the parts in battle with Kas.
I'm of the opinion that Cook did not make a mistake, and that the artifacts are indeed extremely old. it seems the various later authors have deiced to pick and choose what they want to use, and how they want to use it. The 1e DMG gives little information on the artifacts, and it is only in the 2e DMG that we get a whole chunk of information regarding the artifacts' history:
*Paladin-King of Miro. The king was already the king, alredy having, or soon to be having an arm stump, who came into possession of the Hand and was eventually destroyed by it. This leads me away from the squire being the Paladin-King of Miro, but rather the squire is just someone who delivered the Hand into the king's keeping. I prefer Miro as a land, not a person's name, as along with Tyrus, it places the artifacts in far flung places outside of the Flanaess.
Tyrus is a city on the "western shore". We're probably not talking the shore of a lake here, but of an ocean, so not anywhere in the Flanaess.
"Yemishite Assassin". Lots of tidbits in just the 2e DMG. I haven't read it in such a long time. Fun stuff!
Thanks for bringing this up! The @nd ed DMG is one source I haven't gotten to yet--like the 1e DMG, I figured there wouldn't be much detail, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see I was wrong!
Edit: Cebrion or Rip, could you tell me which page(s) the Hand of Vecna appears on in the 2e DMG? My pdf's layout has been altered from the original. Thanks.
Thinking about it further, "Western Shore" is really ambiguous. Highport is on the western shore of Woolly Bay, for example. It could just as easily be Highport.
Actually, I think "western shore of the Sea of Gearnat" is a much more likely interpretation than "western shore of the Pomarj." It's a much more impressive shore to be the slaughterhouse of, since it would include the entire Wild Coast (all the settlements from Safeton to Blue) rather than just a few settlements on the south coast of the Suenha Peninsula.
Oh, and the Hand of Vecna is on page 91 of the 2nd edition DMG. I remember the DMG was actually revised with new illustrations with the publication of Skills & Powers; this page number refers to the original version.
Last edited by rasgon on Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Thinking about it further, "Western Shore" is really ambiguous. Highport is on the western shore of Woolly Bay, for example. It could just as easily be Highport.
Oh, and the Hand of Vecna is on page 91 of the 2nd edition DMG. I remember the DMG was actually revised with new illustrations with the publication of Skills & Powers; this page number refers to the original version.
Thanks, Rip!
Re: Tyrus=Highport, I believe that was original to Samwise's article, as all the canonical sources I know of simply place it on the Pomarj coast.
Going back to the Book of Artifacts: though the BoA mentions the Yaheetes rebellion was crushed by "the Emperor of the Malachite Throne," crafting of the throne did not actually begin until 443 CY (Ivid the Undying, 22), when the items were in Halmadar's possession. This gives us not only a geographical conflict (VL's statement that the Insurrection occurred in the Dreadwood), but a chronological one.
Let's face it: some of those old designers either didn't do their homework or just wanted to put their own spin on things.
But it's the same designer in all three cases (Vecna Lives!, 2e DMG, Book of Artifacts)!
Irrelevant. Any author who's written any significant amount of material can tell you - the more you write, the greater the likelihood you'll contradict yourself. Cook wrote a LOT within a very short time, and has commented several times on how busy he was at the time. Seems very likely he could've unknowingly contradicted himself. To be blunt, I'm rather surprised he didn't do so more often.
Re: Tyrus=Highport, I believe that was original to Samwise's article, as all the canonical sources I know of simply place it on the Pomarj coast.
Yes, I think so too. I was hoping that, taken with the "slaughterhouse of the western shore" description in the 2e DMG, we could narrow it down further, but it depends on whether they meant the western shore of the Sea of Gearnat, of Woolly Bay, or of the Pomarj. It could easily be Highport. It could be Blue too, or somewhere else that no longer has a name (or, at least, not a name in Common; it may well have a name in Goblin or some other humanoid tongue).
It's also possible that The Dragon-Scale Tome is inaccurate, and it wasn't in the Pomarj at all. I'm thinking that for Timonas of Jalpa to have heard the legends, they likely happened somewhere in the Flanaess, though. It seems much less likely that he included legends from the far Baklunish lands on the other side of the Dramidj Ocean, or from the western shore of Oerik.
That's not irrelevant. If it was his own material, it's unlikely he changed things because he "just wanted to put his own spin on things." I think he did believe his Greyhawk-specific material in Vecna Lives! was "better" (at least for the purposes of the adventure) then the generic material in the 2e DMG, but there's no real contradiction between the two.
I don't think it's a case of not doing his homework either; the text is similar enough that I'm sure he had the DMG open in front of him when he was writing Vecna Lives!, and that he had Vecna Lives! open while he was writing the Book of Artifacts. I can't imagine he regurgitated all that material from the top of his head.
Granted, his claim that a rebellion in the Dreadwood was crushed by the Malachite Throne probably was a result of not doing his homework, but you can see how it happened: the relevant material in Vecna Lives! was written, in-character, at the behest of the Malachite Throne. The term probably snuck into the text for that reason. And it's additional evidence that he was referring to Vecna Lives! while he wrote it.
But as far the particular issue you were responding to: the varying dates within Vecna Lives! may be a result of not doing homework as well (he didn't bother to look up how long ago House Neheli entered the Flanaess).
On the other hand, a lot of homework was clearly done in preparation for that adventure. The Chronicle of Secret Times by Uhas of Neheli, for example, is from an obscure reference in Greyhawk Adventures. Carrying that forward took dedication.
In the DMG 2e pdf(with its giant font and totally different structure), the Hand of Vecna should be on page 197. One could wish that everything was preserved in original pdf format like the Paizo Pathfinder stuff is.
rasgon wrote:
Still, I disagree with your analysis. Page 22 of Vecna Lives! says Tyrus was "believed to have been somewhere on the Pomarj coast." The Pomarj certainly has a western shore, and on the Azure Sea, not a lake. There aren't any cities there today, but the opposite end of the peninsula from Blue constitutes the western side. Perhaps Tyrus was located down the river from where Ostrand Keep is on Anna's map, or near the lair of the Purple Squid Hobgoblins....
...Actually, it looks a bit too hilly near Ostrand Keep to build a prosperous settlement, but I imagine if a site is good enough for hobgoblins, it was good enough for humans. So Tyrus was probably in what are now the Purple Squid lands.
Vecna Lives! says only that the location of Miro hasn't been identified, so it could be outside of the Flanaess, or it could be a small state that no longer exists.
When it says the Vecna artifacts jump around, I don't limit that to just the Flannaes. Still, the Pomarj area works well enough, and I didn't recall that reference. Ostrand Keep is not an issue, as Tyrus could have been near it or not, and Ostrand Keep is probably not very old either. Tyrus was destroyed such that no easily found evidence of it remains apparently, unless a few errant bits of stone from the city's buildings were used in the construction of Ostrand Keep and are located in some obscure area of the keep(I smell an adventure hook! ). The area of shoreline where Tyrus once was(even if that were near where Ostrand Keep now is) could have been blasted to rubble and it all just crumbled into the Azure Sea, where in the present day the ruins of it await being found by some stalwart adventurers...
rasgon wrote:
I have no idea what a Yemishite assassin might have been, though. It sounds Baklunish, doesn't it?
Well, only so far as it sounds similar to "Yemen", but I'm not one to peg the Baklunish as having solely Middle Eastern influences(as they do not), but as having both Middle and Far Eastern influences. Let's just say that I've already put "Yemish" into the far west; actually replacing the horribly named "Ishtarland" which I have been contemplating a new name for for some time. Besides, it would be very cool to have an assassins' guild(though that is not implied; only the assassin's nationality) from so long ago still be around and active(and feared). :cool: I won't feel too bad about stealing one tidbit which is a completely off-hand reference.
This also fits in well with the Tharquish project I am working on, and of course this just adds another article to my project queu(dammit!). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:42 am; edited 4 times in total
In the DMG 2e pdf, the Hand of Vecna should be on page 197.
Really? My hardcopy 2e DMG only has 192 pages total; you must have the revised edition.
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When it says the Vecna artifacts jump around, I don't limit that to just the Flannaes.
I actually accept the information in the Planescape: Torment video game that describes the travels of Vecna's eye to several other worlds or planes (the world of Malhatai, the Plane of Ghalentir, and Sigil). I have no problem with the artifacts traveling far from their origin, but as the known appearances described in the DMG were supposedly cataloged by an Aerdi scholar, I'd rather restrict them to places an Aerdi scholar would reasonably learn about.
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Ostrand Keep is not an issue, as Tyrus could have been near it or not, and Ostrand Keep is probably not very old either.
Yeah, I wouldn't assume it was around at the time of Vecna II. My only concern is that the terrain as rendered by Anna doesn't look very hospitable there.
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Let's just say that I've already put "Yemish" into the far west; actually replacing the horribly named "Ishtarland" which I have been contemplating a new name for for some time.
Sounds good to me. A single assassin from Western Oerik might end up anywhere.
Thinking about it further, "Western Shore" is really ambiguous. Highport is on the western shore of Woolly Bay, for example. It could just as easily be Highport.
Actually, I think "western shore of the Sea of Gearnat" is a much more likely interpretation than "western shore of the Pomarj." It's a much more impressive shore to be the slaughterhouse of, since it would include the entire Wild Coast (all the settlements from Safeton to Blue) rather than just a few settlements on the south coast of the Suenha Peninsula.
Digging further, I have to agree that the "Slaughterhouse of the Western Shore" would be better placed on the west coast of the Sea of Gearnat, rather than the west coast of the Pomarj. Aside from the reasons you mentioned, the western shore of the Pomarj is a little too close for comfort to both Gryrax and Gradsul. I find it implausible that Keoland and the Principality of Ulek would not take an interest in a nearby port ruled for 100 years by someone calling himself Vecna II, given Keoish history.
Marching Keoish/Uleki forces through the Drachensgrabs could be a risky proposition, since the nobles & citizenry would probably show little support for invading a town which seemed to threaten only the lawless Wild Coast & savage Pomarji lands. Likewise, sending naval forces throught the straits of Gearnat might be seen as a threat to Aerdi's sovereign waters around Onnwal (taken by Aerdy in -46 CY--see LGG, 80). The Aerdi would likely see Vecna II as less of a threat, as they had no experience with the original Vecna, and they were likely too busy dealing with securing power within the Great Kingdom itself.
Vecna II most likely existed between -200 & 295 CY, as the Insurrection of the Yaheetes occurred "136 years after the passing of Vecna" (2e DMG, 91), therefore c. -222. The 2e DMG also mentions that the Hand was in the possession of a fisherman "for several decades" before the outlaw Mace claimed it. The LGG mentions that Keoland & the Principality did not invade the Pomarj until 295 CY (p. 88), so it is likely that Vecna II was already gone by that time.
It is possible, of course, that one of the goals of the invasion, other than to acquire land, was to overthrow Vecna II. Oddly enough, Highport was constructed 10 years later "atop the foundations of a smaller town" (LGG, 88), so it's possible that Tyrus was destroyed by the Keoish & Uleki invaders (this may be where Sam made the Tyrus=Highport connection). However, I visualize Tavish I & Prince Corond utilizing armies rather than assassins, so I'm more inclined to think that Vecna II was long gone by 295 CY.
I have no idea what a Yemishite assassin might have been, though. It sounds Baklunish, doesn't it?
Well, only so far as it sounds similar to "Yemen", but I'm not one to peg the Baklunish as having solely Middle Eastern influences(as they do not), but as having both Middle and Far Eastern influences. Let's just say that I've already put "Yemish" into the far west; actually replacing the horribly named "Ishtarland" which I have been contemplating a new name for for some time. Besides, it would be very cool to have an assassins' guild(though that is not implied; only the assassin's nationality) from so long ago still be around and active(and feared). :cool: I won't feel too bad about stealing one tidbit which is a completely off-hand reference.
This also fits in well with the Tharquish project I am working on, and of course this just adds another article to my project queu(dammit!).
It does sound Baklunish, for reasons mentioned by Cebrion. However, it could also perhaps be the name of a non-human tribe (perhaps in its own language) or a religious or political organization. It would be interesting to link the Yemishites to Johydee--perhaps "Yemishite" is a Feral word, and this group is a precursor to the Jade Masks?
Furthermore, the fact that Vecna II was "struck down" removes the unnamed elf in Citadel Cavitius from consideration.
Oh, it is also interesting to note that Mace was supposedly "visited by the spirit of Vecna," which, if true, shows that Vecna was active after his "destruction" far earlier than many thought.
BTW, I was really hoping to be able to link Tyrus to the Lost City of the Suss,, but the only coast it was on was the Jewel (tAB).
edit: Perhaps the "Yemishites" are even from another plane, who made an enemy of Vecna (I or II) when he crossed swords with them while plane-hopping.
Last edited by Robbastard on Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Since Vecna II has been ruled out for the identity of the unnamed, one-eyed, one-handed elf in Vecna Lives! (p. 65), and the elf is regarded as a "earlier victim," it seems we must look to Paddin the Vain as a possibility.
Of the 3 known sources to mention the Insurrection of the Yaheetes (VL, 2e DMG, & BoA), only one, VL (the most GH-specific), places it occurring in the Dreadwood (p.22). The other sources do not contradict this, though the BoA creates problems by having the Insurrection by the Overking (for reasons mentioned earlier, we will consider this to be a mistake or deliberate falsehood).
None of these three sources mention the race of the Yaheetes, though many have assumed them to be Flan. However, it is also probable that the Yaheetes were an elven clan (though admittedly, the name does not "sound" elvish), given the long-established presence of elves in the Dreadwood. Though the Living Greyhawk Journal #1 does mention that "human and elven emissaries first met and exchanged words of peace" at Grayhill c. -309 CY (p.15). Though the Insurrection occurred nearly a century later c. -222 CY (2e DMG, 91), it is quite likely that relations with the Keoish crown & the Dreadwood elves were not always smooth sailing. Furthermore, the Yaheetes clan may have been under the magical control of Paddin the Vain.
The death of Paddin the Vain is not mentioned in any of the sources, only that he was "overthrown" (though the Hand did "disappear"--2e DMG, 91) & the rebellion was "crushed" (BoA). Therefore, it is possible that Paddin escaped death, though he lost his artifact(s).
As for Paddin the Vain having both items, the BoA & 2e DMG only implicate the Hand in the Insurrection, while VL implies both items may have been used. However, an earlier event in the Keoland may add more circumstantial evidence. Note that much of the following was also noted by Samwise in his article.
VL states that The Chronicle of Secret Times lists “some of the powers and dangers of the Hand and the Eye, since these items fell into the possession of the Neheli, at least for a short time.” Though sources do not say for certain if the artifacts came into the Neheli’s possession prior to the Insurrection of the Yaheetes, this is the most likely scenario, given the fact that House Neheli’s lands in northern Keoland were closer to Vecna’s seat of power (LGG, 64), and that though the Keoish throne certainly put down the Insurrection of the Yaheetes, the crown was held by the southern nobles of House Rhola at the time (LGJ #1, 11).
Given House Neheli’s strong connections to the Silent Ones (LGG, 163) and the organization’s penchant for hoarding powerful magic (LGJ#4, 13, 14), it is very probable that the artifacts of Vecna were given to the Silent Ones for study and safekeeping.
During the "first century of the migrations," House Malhel attacks the Silent Tower, making off “with a great many artifacts and ancient scrolls” ) before being driven “deep into the Dreadwood by a combined host of men and demihumans” (LGJ#4, 12, 14) where the house is “consumed by its own evil after trying to summon up the powers of the earth in a desire to resurrect the Suel Imperium.” The wizard Asberdies escapes the destruction of his house, fleeing west (LGG 64, 135).
Given that the Neheli once had the artifacts of Vecna, and their first recorded use occurred in the Dreadwood, it is very tempting to link the Malhel to them. Perhaps they never got a chance to use them, or they contributed to the Malhel's destruction. Why the Silent Ones did not attempt to scour the Dreadwood for them is unknown--perhaps it was no longer safe after this event, perhaps they suspected Asberdies had taken them to the Yeomanry, perhaps the elves did not want more humans poking about their forest, or a combination of these factors.
Nonetheless, by c. -222, we know the Hand, & perhaps also the Eye are in the Dreadwood, being used by Paddin the Vain to lead the Insurrection of the Yaheetes. If this is indeed an elven clan, perhaps Paddin, using the artifacts' power, was able to inflame resentment against the Suel for past offenses, real and imagined.
Another apparent mistake Cook made was stating that the artifacts “are items that have existed for thousands of years or even longer” (p. 70)." I, however, have seen this as an opportunity to make lemonade, and am using this to reconcile the apparent loss of Vecna's parts in Vecna: Hand of the Revenant with accounts of him losing the parts in battle with Kas.
I'm of the opinion that Cook did not make a mistake, and that the artifacts are indeed extremely old. it seems the various later authors have deiced to pick and choose what they want to use, and how they want to use it.
Cook contradicted himself within the same product when he had Kas's betrayal happening around -419 CY (VL, back cover), which would make the artifacts only about 1000 years old by the time of VL.
I don't think that Tyrus possibly being on the west coast of the Pomarj is too close to Gradsul or other cities, if it was on the mountianous pennisula in the purple squid lands(that's 240 miles from the jewel rive asthe crow flies). tis also a good palce for it to have been blasted to rubble and fall into the sea(if you want to go that route). That location is also one of prominence(literally) with regards to sea travel, and could very well be protected quite well from inland assult(hence why it was such desired location to control).
Highport being built over a small town is also not such a great fit in my opinion, as Tyrus comes off as being much more than just a small town(it is a walled city, with gates, and a seat of royal power), and with Vecna II ruling there for 100 years, one would think that such a megalomaniac would not settle for ruling from a capital the size of a small town. Besides, I get the impression that Tyrus was there long before Vecna II took over and it seems it would be more developed. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Cook contradicted himself within the same product when he had Kas's betrayal happening around -419 CY (VL, back cover), which would make the artifacts only about 1000 years old by the time of VL.
What is it on the back cover that leads you toward that date? I don't see any dates or context except that it was the third year in the reign of Burgred of the Mara, and centuries ago.
From the information in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 64, it must have been around fifty years later.
"The nobles of House Rhola made for the Azure Coast, where in -368 CY they founded the city of Gradsul..."
"Niole Dra was founded by them [the Neheli] within ten years of Gradsul's creation. The next few seasons brought many changes to the land, as the Oeridian tribes entered the Sheldomar Valley from the north after great upheaval appeared to bring down the Empire of Vecna from within."
Based on that, Niole Dra was founded within ten years after -368 CY (or probably around -358, less a few months) and Vecna was killed within a few seasons later. It might have taken a few seasons for the Oeridians to realize that Vecna had died and for his empire to crumble, of course, so say that Kas's betrayal was in -358 CY.
Cook contradicted himself within the same product when he had Kas's betrayal happening around -419 CY (VL, back cover), which would make the artifacts only about 1000 years old by the time of VL.
What is it on the back cover that leads you toward that date? I don't see any dates or context except that it was the third year in the reign of Burgred of the Mara, and centuries ago.
“. . . and so, after the Rain of Colorless Fire, the One-Named-In-Whispers ascended to the Spidered Throne. In the third year of his ascendacy, Burgred, King of the Mara, refused the tribute of heads the Whispered One demanded.”
The work goes on to imply that Kas's betrayal occurred shortly after.
I take the second sentence to be referring to Vecna's ascendancy, not Burgred's, since the first sentence also refer's to Vecna's ascension.
I, too, prefer the c-358 CY date of the LGG, mainly because had Vecna been destroyed in -419, he would not have been a threat to the founders of Keoland for very long.
Of course, if one reads the second sentence as Burgred's ascension, then the destruction of the Mara could've happened around -358 instead of c. -419.
Here's two locations that I think would work well for Tyrus(if it is located in the Flanaess), both being located off of large promontories, and thus are defensible as well as command a large area of shoreline. They are also more defensible from inland attack. Of the two, the more northwesterly location is more rugged, is more defensible from inland attack, and could even have other benefits from the nearby mountains(mines, etc.) which look to run nearly to the sea. There could be a coastal road along the east shore of the promontory leading up to what is now the Purple Squid Tribe's base(which, being at an estuary, is no doubt the location of a former non-humanoid town or city that was taken over during the invasion of the Pomarj long ago) which then accesses the road on the west side of the river(which may still bear evidence of an older, more finished road, such as waymarkers, milestones, etc.).
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Actually, the Planescape Campaign Setting: A DM Guide to the Planes says Vecna seized Cavitius "eons ago" (p. 37)
Yeah, you have to take into account that the Doomguard is only a little over 600 years old, though, according to The Factol's Manifesto (page 40, see also the age of the Great Upheaval on 102 and elsewhere). This is later canon, though, which Zeb Cook wouldn't have been aware of.
Of course, I prefer in my own speculations to assume that the Doomguard that formed 600-odd years ago during the Great Upheaval was a reborn version of a much older organization that might indeed have been eons old.
What year CY is The Factol's Manifesto set in, Rip? It could be quite possible that Vecna did build Citadel Cavitius (esp since Kas was sent there after his betrayal), then it was seized by the Doomguard while Vecna's "will" was floating about the multiverse, then regained by Vecna once more.
What year CY is The Factol's Manifesto set in, Rip?
It's set in the 127th year of Factol Hashkar's reign, which equates to 587 CY.
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It could be quite possible that Vecna did build Citadel Cavitius (esp since Kas was sent there after his betrayal), then it was seized by the Doomguard while Vecna's "will" was floating about the multiverse, then regained by Vecna once more.
Vecna probably didn't build Citadel Cavitius, but yes, I would assume he owned it at the time of Kas's banishment, and the Doomguard moved in later, probably around -14 CY (give or take).
We know Vecna probably didn't build Citadel Cavitius originally because The Inner Planes accessory said he didn't (page 112):
"The whole place looks like a giant skull, and it's as old as, well, it's older than Vecna, and that's old. Some tell tales that it's older than the Doomguard that originally lived here, built by some long-lost race of bloods who worshiped death in a way that even the Dustmen could never understand. There's even said to be places within Cavitius that Vecna was afraid to go, but that sounds like nothing but screed, if I've ever heard any."
Edit: Although I suppose it's conceivable that the "long-lost race of bloods who worshiped death" were Vecna's own cultists.
Last edited by rasgon on Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
As long as I'm at it, I might as well finally reply to some things Samwise said.
Samwise wrote:
As for Vecna entering Sigil, that is covered in DVD, on page 122. Essentially, he "cheated": he was not a deity at the time he entered Sigil, his power in flux and his status changing as he went from demipower to lesser power. While his long planted agent Ely Cromlich was ready to turn the ruins of the Armory over to him, and while he quickly gained the allegiance of power player Authochon the Bellringer, neither was specifically named as directly related to setting up the circumstances to let Vecna take advantage of the loophole he had discovered. How many were unintentionally and incidentally related to such is an obvious concept for a DM to improvise wildly on, as secrets are an essential part of Vecna.
My mistake. The reason I had the impression was this section in Dragon #348 (page 31):
"In the months and years that followed, Cromlich secretly studied magic and--with the help of numerous powerful demons--laid powerful symbols of chaos and disruption within the walls of the Armory. When war came to Sigil, he acted to hasten the destruction of many of the city's more lawful factions by tainting the area around the Armory with chaotic energy, inciting riots, and open fighting with an incursion of demons. During this chaos, though, he was killed. His sacrifice proved sufficient, however, and when Vecna sought to enter Sigil, the city's fundamental wards barring deities were weakened enough to allow him entry. For Cromlich's work, the ascending god restored the half-fiend to life."
I interpreted this as meaning that his symbols of chaos and disruption had weakened the barrier. I think, in retrospect, that it means the death and chaos provoked by the symbols of chaos (in the form of the Faction War) weakened the barrier, perhaps because the Lady of Pain was distracted, being busy creating infinite time loops in order to toy with certain characters, or dealing with the Sigil Spell.
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And Rip, once again, take note of Ely Cromlich. Your reference does not say by force, merely that he took it. Ely was at the Armory in Sigil for over a century as per The Factol's Manifesto. Where he was before that, say at Citadel Cavitius, giving it over to his master Vecna at the proper time, and making sure Vecna's prisoners were properly accounted for even after he left, is not specified.
Well, Dragon #348 says (page 30):
"While the Doomguard hold a redoubt on that sea of dead embers, they once controlled Vecna's nearby skull-shaped fortress Cavitius, but were driven from it when the Arch-Lich claimed it as his own. In their retreat, they were forced to abandon many of their dearest treasures and have since sought a chance to retake the tainted citadel. Thus, when a period of inactivity was reported, it was Ely Cromlich and a taskforce of the Doomguard's most skilled warriors who were ordered to infiltrate the fortress and recover what they could.
"None know what truly happened at Cavitius, but only Cromlich returned alive. In the wake of his later acts, some believe the half-fiend came face to face with Vecna himself and either sold his service to the demigod in return for his life or was destroyed--his spirit being replaced by something more inclined to Vecna's will. Either way, Ely Cromlich returned to Sigil serving a new master."
It's indeed possible (depending on how you interpret the "new master" part of the last line - perhaps he still considered Vecna to be "new" after centuries of service) that Ely had been in Cavitius before Vecna seized control of it, but it sounds like the Doomguard didn't go willingly. Ely might have betrayed the Doomguard to Vecna, though.
So anyway, Kas was banished around -358 CY, the same date when Vecna was cast insensate to the lower planes before the worship of his followers summoned him back. In the meantime, the prisoners were presumedly watched over by Vecna's remaining servitors until the Doomguard, newly formed in the wake of Sigil's Great Upheaval in approximately -14 CY (though they had existed as a loose gang before that), took residence. Perhaps Vecna's servitors accepted their presence (perhaps in only part of the city) but refused to leave or surrender their prisoners, and the Doomguard never bothered or were unable to press the matter. They may have been fascinated by the slow decay of Vecna's servants, believing they might witness some decay in their memory of or obedience to Vecna's original orders that justified their theories on the nature of entropy. Perhaps this was when Ely Cromlich originally became intrigued by Vecna's cult.
Here's an obscure reference of debatable use: the dracolich Ampathzeredes, who sought to become the heir of Vecna and was defeated by the Six from Shadow. This was mentioned briefly in Complete Champion.
It's not clear how or in what sense a dracolich sought to become Vecna's heir, whether it simply sought to resume Vecna's research, follow in Vecna's footsteps as an ascended god, or to actually recreate Vecna's legendary kingdom. It's possible that the creature had in its possession one of the artifacts of Vecna for a time, though I doubt it was able to actually graft anything of Vecna's to its body.
The only reason I really have the slightest concern in the matter is based on the (somewhat wild) speculation that the 580s CY was the absolute soonest Vecna could have made his move because he had been imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk with eight other demigods until 570. If this were true, he must not have had much time to prepare before that either. But even if we grant those unfounded speculations, there's no reason it couldn't have taken him centuries to create and array his objects of power, and locate his Hand and Eye.
A couple of additions to this thought.
Vecna Lives!, page 7, says "With his usual long patience, Vecna has been working on this plan for centuries." This would suggest he's been a demigod for centuries for sure, since I don't think he was able to work on the plan much as a bodiless shade. However, I would suggest Vecna reached divinity sometime after the internment of Halmadar the Cruel in 465 CY, since finally finding Halmadar (and the Hand and Eye in his possession) was what allowed Vecna to finally complete his mystic diagram. I think if Halmadar had been active at the same time as Vecna, Vecna would have claimed his lost organs much sooner. Perhaps Halmadar's reign and subsequent notoriety was what finally inspired a critical threshold of worshipers to propel Vecna to godhood, though. Perhaps Verlamis, as speculated earlier, encountered a sub-divine but still corporeal Vecna, unable at the time to leave Citadel Cavitius.
However, there's some canonical support for the idea that Vecna was one of the prisoners of Greyhawk. Die Vecna Die! says on page 5: "According to the lore of some recordkeepers, the cult enjoyed a resurgence almost twenty years ago, although it was stifled. About seven to ten years ago the faithful congregated once more."
Assuming the adventure takes place in 591, then about 20 years ago was 570, the time when Iuz was freed from beneath Castle Greyhawk. Seems like a pretty significant hint to me (but what stifled it?). Ten years ago was 581, when Vecna Lives! was set.
So, a question: why do you think the Vecna cult was stifled shortly after 571 or so? Did some entity find Vecna and imprison him in his Turim Varostak form, or did he simply order his cult to go underground so that no one would become suspicious as they hunted for his Eye and Hand? I think the latter is probably more likely, and fits better with Occam's razor, but an interesting story might be told with the former possibility.
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). The area of shoreline where Tyrus once was(even if that were near where Ostrand Keep now is) could have been blasted to rubble and it all just crumbled into the Azure Sea, where in the present day the ruins of it await being found by some stalwart adventurers... 
