So, since this thread was recently given a reprieve from the depths of the afterlife, through the marvels of Thread Necromancy, I thought I would offer my two cents.
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Recently, I was thinking about maps and such, and how to reconcile different maps of Western Oerik, and how to include reference material from the Black Moon Chronicles as inspiration. I posted some of my thoughts on the topic on the Flanaess Geographical Society Facebook group ... so, I'll transcribe them here, for continuation of the discussion.
Okay … so … I had something of a personal epiphany a bit ago. I'm hoping that I'm not the first to stumble into this theory, and that someone can help me work it out in my head. It relates to the 1996 Dragon Annual global map of Oerth - specifically lands outside the Flanaess.
For those of you unfamiliar with it, I will link the map here:
The thing of it isn't so much the map itself, but the accompanying text. In another thread, I made a comment saying something to the effect that if we could somehow authenticate that it was a map of another era, we could then justify the use of maps and source material from both the Black Moon Chronicles, and the Chainmail Sundered Empire settings - which are (for now) mutually exclusive in some areas, as they overlap.
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So, here's my thought: the text of the Baklunish and Suel Empires are the critical parts … they say:
Dragon Magaztine Annual, 1996 wrote:
"Baklunish Empire: More properly called the Baklulnish Basin these days. …"
"Suel Empire: You know this area as the Sea of Dust. Tales of its former glory is known to you."
So, my thinking is thus: If Heward, in-character, refers to the labels as being no longer accurate, and admits that the map is "cobbled … together from diverse sources - mostly the recollections of some of the 'old guard'…" and it includes nations that are no longer present, and that the names of some areas have obviously changed, is it not also possible (or likely, even) that details about other nations may've changed? Like whether or not they exist anymore after a great cataclysm?
So, I'm thinking that if the Twin Cataclysms took place about -422CY, that'd put it during the Demon War in western Oerik (according to Chainmail canon) ca1500 years before present. The Empire of Lynn, and all of Western Oerik is presented in a way that makes them seem contemporary to the Suel and Baklunish Empires. ... in fact, the Empire of Lynn could be older than that, since the Suel calendar goes back even further than that. But, we know that the map represents Oerik's nations in their state not more recent than -422CY.
Lastly … since it's also an established fact that there were other nations in western Oerik prior to the Demon War, and that little was left afterward except ruins - so, I'm thinking that since the original Dragon Annual map has names of nations that no longer exist in the *Flanaess*, it may just as well have ones of nations whose borders have changed in Western Oerik, or also no longer exist.
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What do y'all think? Could this be a map of a previous era of Oerik?
Let's keep this away from edition wars or opinions about whether or not someone liked Chainmail, or the DA map, but throw in your two coppers worth! _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
I think it was another way for the author of the Dragon Annual #1 article, Skip Williams, to assure readers that the terrible names on that map weren't necessarily canon, as well as cover their butts when they inevitably retconned it in future products. "Nippon" was so bad that it earned still another layer of doubt, but places like 'Ishtarland' are likely not the modern names for those nations either. And, for example, the Elvanian Forest was renamed Ravillia.
But yes, it's possible to make as many changes to the map as you want and use 'the map is 1000 years out of date' as an excuse. I'm sure that was part of Skip Williams' thinking too.
Well, yes ... I'm certainly aware that there is a great deal of the population of fans of GH that freak out whenever "Nippon" is mentioned. I think that the reaction is a little overblown, personally, since there are many and varied things about Greyhawk that are references to or direct word-swapping from IRL history. For me personally, I'd never even heard the word "Nippon" 'til someone on Canonfire ranted about it, decrying it and saying how awful it was.
But, that's really neither here, nor there.
rasgon wrote:
And, for example, the Elvanian Forest was renamed Ravillia.
I'm a little loathe to say it, Rasgon, but you seem to be mis-remembering. The elven Oligarchy of Ravilla is a considerable distance Northwest of the Elvanian Forest (or "Forȇt Elfique", depending on one's source). Ravilla is also heavily forested, but, it is hundreds, if not thousands of miles away. It's the area marked on the map above as "Elven Lands".
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But yes, it's possible to ... use 'the map is 1000 years out of date' as an excuse. I'm sure that was part of Skip Williams' thinking too.
Well, yes ... I'm certainly aware that there is a great deal of the population of fans of GH that freak out whenever "Nippon" is mentioned. I think that the reaction is a little overblown, personally, since there are many and varied things about Greyhawk that are references to or direct word-swapping from IRL history.
It seems to have bothered Skip Williams enough that it earned a "Unsure of the place's real name" note from Heward, something we don't see in any of the other names. So while the potentially outdated nature of the rest of the map offers an "out" for those who want to change the names of the other nations, Nippon got an extra layer of dubiousness by having its name specifically called out by the author.
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Ravilla is also heavily forested, but, it is hundreds, if not thousands of miles away. It's the area marked on the map above as "Elven Lands".
Ah yes, I was confusing the Elvanian Forest with the Elven Lands.
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Well, I don't think I would exactly call it an "excuse"
I don't mean anything disparaging by the word "excuse." Naturally, you don't need any excuse to change something for your own campaign. But if you're dealing with contradictory canon, this provides an excuse for assigning this particular canon a lower priority.
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I am mostly concerned that I don't know my ancient GH history enough to know if there's any conflict with what's known of Oerik 1,500 YBP.
It seems to have bothered Skip Williams enough that it earned a "Unsure of the place's real name" note from Heward, something we don't see in any of the other names. So while the potentially outdated nature of the rest of the map offers an "out" for those who want to change the names of the other nations, Nippon got an extra layer of dubiousness by having its name specifically called out by the author.
You know, that's really a good point. I'd forgotten that Nippon has a specific note about that, in addition to the more general statement in the introduction paragraph that he's sure that locals have other names for the nations.
I tend to like to think of it as Skip Williams using it not so much as simply a horrible name, but, more as a way to let us know what *we're* (as players) are s'posed to understand about the theme of the region, and that he wanted us to know that it had an oriental theme without explicitly saying it, or wasting valuable word count on explaining that it is so. It would especially be difficult if he had written, long-form, that the place should be "medieval Japan" or "Rennaisance China". This way, I think, it can be an ancient place (comparable to an IRL historical place) without specifying details.
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But if you're dealing with contradictory canon, this provides an excuse for assigning this particular canon a lower priority.
You know, it's kind of funny ... I couldn't help but chuckle a little at that last part. Since I'm a *huge* of Western Oerik, I am -in a way- trying to assign it a higher priority. I think that this map has been too long ignored, and I would like to see it have a more firmly established, and accepted, place in canon.
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We know precious little about ancient Oerik.
And that's mostly why I would *love* it if the theory that it's firmly a map of ancient Oerik.
One problem that it does bring about, though, is Lhynn. I don't recall if it's referred to in later GH works as the "Empire" of Lhynn, or not. But, I know Robilar went there, and I know the Dragonmasters and the Mirrormasters are mentioned.
But, if he went within his lifetime, and we assume that he wasn't time-traveling, that would mean that he visited a smaller nation that no longer controlled a majority of the entire region. Which, I guess, really, there's no problem with that. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
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