One thing that's often taken for granted in fantasy games is the cleanliness and hygiene of characters, plus the disposal of "business". As anyone who's studied the Middle Ages and the Renaissance knows, medieval Europe was not clean-sheets were rarely cleaned, people rarely washed or groomed themselves, and housewives would throw their garbage into the streets and rivers.
I highly doubt, of course, that anyone wants to have characters that are perpetually filthy, suffering from bad hygiene, or are forced to sleep in unwashed inn beds, unless being dirty is part of the character's personality. So, I wonder; what kind of sanitation, if any, do the various peoples and states of the Flanaess have?
For one thing, let me state the single characteristic EVERY race, good or evil, smart or stupid, human or demihuman, shares-NONE of them EVER throw their garbage into rivers and other sources of drinking water. Even the stupidest orcs and goblins know better than to do something so foolish, and so traditionally let the carrion crawlers get it. Dwarves and gnomes might burn their garbage, "business", or other such things as fuel in their furnaces. Nomadic humans will usually travel away from whatever messes they make, while civilized humans usually bury it or set it in dumps that are torched every now and then, whether by wizards or simply through normal means.
As concerns personal hygiene, even the poorest farmer will have a horse-trough or pond he can have a bath in, using herbs or homemade soaps to do so. The urban poor can take a bath in a rain barrel or in a ditch they dig and fill with water from the local well, if nothing else is available. Grooming is done on a regular basis by those who can afford it, and the presence of clerics being able to purify food, purify water, and cure disease means even the urban poor rarely have any sort of epidemics among them.
Of course, the poor in places like Iuz or the streets of Rauxes will have problems of this nature. Garbage and waste can clog certain rivers like the Zumker, when the people who toss it there don't use it for drinking water (people only avoid throwing waste into water sources they use.) The streets of cities like Rookroost, Stoink, Eastfair, and other large cities may have problems with mud and horse-droppings. The above statements are just general tendencies-there are exceptions everywhere, of course.
The only major aberration, at least so far as I am concerned, is Narwell. Having it in for Narwell as I do, I consider that "city" an open sewer, where dogs and men fight it out for the few scraps that people toss out of the windows of the rickety, rat-infested garbage piles they call homes. The people are lazy, stupid, arrogant, inbred, racist, filthy and diseased, and...well, I could go on, but I think everyone gets the picture. :P
Just wanted your thoughts on this, since this is something that's often ignored in fantasy games, and it can help make the setting be more believable and "true to life". And, of course, it's comforting to know your character isn't as filthy dirty as s/he would be in Elizabethan England or medieval France. :P
Quite an interesting topic. It makes me want to go back and read up on Greyhawk City's Sewerman and Streetsweeper's Guild. How many real life medieval cities had sewers and if like you said humans were smarter than to spoil their water, why would GHC's sewers end at the Selintan, right near the docks IIRC on the maps. There is also garbage hill but I can't recall if waste is dumped there or if it is what washes up from the sewer outflow or both.
How many real life medieval cities had sewers and if like you said humans were smarter than to spoil their water, why would GHC's sewers end at the Selintan, right near the docks IIRC on the maps.
I'm assuming sewers are used to drain away the water that is used in fountains, streams or rivers that pass through a city, and to get rid of floodwater. Waste could be thrown down there, although I think, simply for aesthetic purposes, the City would have purchased some sort of filtration device powered by the flow of the water itself. Manufactured by gnomes (obviously), it would trap all the scum and scunge, allowing the water to flow freely. To avoid sparking an industrial revolution, the device would be powered by kinetic energy, rather than electricity gas, or steam power (thankfully).
I'd imagine most cities with a sewer system would have these sorts of devices (and places that don't, like Dorakaa, could have some sort of monsters down there to "process" it...) It's also possible large cities with the money to afford it could buy a family of otyughs and just throw all their garbage down to the pit where these creatures would live; a win-win situation. And "business" could be used in the manufacture of dyes, or as fuel for fires...
Like I said, in any case these are just generalizations. Cities like Stoink, Rookroost, or any other out-of-the way/"wild" city might have problems with garbage in the streets, and certain areas might have pollution in the rivers-I just don't want to play in a setting where everything stinks. :p
How many real life medieval cities had sewers and if like you said humans were smarter than to spoil their water, why would GHC's sewers end at the Selintan, right near the docks IIRC on the maps.
I'd imagine most cities with a sewer system would have these sorts of devices (and places that don't, like Dorakaa, could have some sort of monsters down there to "process" it...)
Dorakaa does have an extensive sewer system. It is
detailed in City of Skulls and allows the PCs to sneak into the
city.
One should remember that Dorakaa and the land of Iuz has not
always been under the control of Iuz. When Ferrond broke
away from the Great Kingdom, what is now the "land of Iuz"
was called the Northern Reaches, and was part of the new
nation of Furyondy. I imagine Dorakaa was once the
trade center and administrative capital of this province.
Thus, it had all the modern engineering of the time.
I am sure the sewers and other public works (except some walls)
have not been maintained since the rise of Iuz, but that was
only a century ago and much of the stone structures are
probably still intact.
One thing that's often taken for granted in fantasy games is the cleanliness and hygiene of characters, plus the disposal of "business". As anyone who's studied the Middle Ages and the Renaissance knows, medieval Europe was not clean - sheets were rarely cleaned, people rarely washed or groomed themselves, and housewives would throw their garbage into the streets and rivers.
An... ummm... interesting topic.
One thing to consider is that rather than always following the medieval model, there are others from our own history that might be useful.
For example, before the 'Dark Ages' and the onset of medieval times (can I get away with those two words without copyright infringement?), the Roman Empire had quite an efficient public sanitation system.
I was fortunate enough to visit Rome a few years ago and was impressed by the extensive system of aqueducts, (ancient) sewers, bath houses, etc., etc. that continue to survive in crumbling form to this day. A tour guide explained that the ancient Romans had strict edicts against dumping waste in public spaces which made sense as plagues and disease could be a huge civic problem in those days.
So even if you're going for a campaign based on Low Medieval technology and practices, there's nothing to say that the urban environment can't be a clean one. Our own forebears may have lost, during the Medieval period, some of the cleanliness that the Romans enjoyed but a fantasy world doesn't always have to follow that example.
I went the other direction in that for my version of the Flanaess, I've opted for a High Renaissance model in some respects. Hand-operated water pumps are a known technology so that running water is available (although primarily to the upper classes). And I don't believe it'd be too difficult to include beliefs concerning cleanliness and its relationship to health into a Greyhawk social system.
I was fortunate enough to visit Rome a few years ago and was impressed by the extensive system of aqueducts, (ancient) sewers, bath houses, etc., etc. that continue to survive in crumbling form to this day. A tour guide explained that the ancient Romans had strict edicts against dumping waste in public spaces which made sense as plagues and disease could be a huge civic problem in those days.
I went the other direction in that for my version of the Flanaess, I've opted for a High Renaissance model in some respects. Hand-operated water pumps are a known technology so that running water is available (although primarily to the upper classes). And I don't believe it'd be too difficult to include beliefs concerning cleanliness and its relationship to health into a Greyhawk social system.
Well-stated. I should have made reference to Greco-Roman plumbing and filtration systems-since that is the inspiration for the technology I figured Greyhawkers could use. As one might expect, the best plumbing is gnome-designed and engineered, but of course humans can do quite well for themselves. Technology powered by kinetic energy like this is OK-it's just fuel-driven technology, like anything based on oil, gas and electricty, that is verboten in Greyhawk. I'm a Greyhawk Luddite and proud of it. :P
Cleanliness and health are closely related, IMO, to most of the major religions, especially ones that rely on good appearance and cleanliness such as Hieroneous, St. Cuthbert, Pholtus, Zilchus, Phaulkon, Lydia, etc. Even evil religions might encourage it to some extent-it means they have to expend less energy on healing diseases and purifying food and water.
It's not a scholarly source, but it might be a nice starting point for informal research.
One extreme that shows up in pop culture depictions of the Medieval period is "Dung Ages."
The other extreme is the scrubbed-clean, sanitized "Camelot" sort of thing.
CSL seems to be leaning a towards the clean end of things, but without going sanitized.
That sounds fun.
I prefer to lean a little dirtier, closer to most historical examples. But not the full-on Dung Ages stereotype that only applies to certain times and places and is misleading when applied to the period as a whole.
I want some grot in my fantasy cities. The amount varies based on culture, infrastructure, population density, water supply, etc.
Not only is grot fun local "decoration", it provides for monster habitat and supports pathogen vectors. Diseases give the clerics something to tackle and keep the populations from getting too enormous (or justify periodic epidemics that knock large numbers back down).
RE : advanced Medieval sewers and water supply systems.
You might want to look at the East Roman Empire.
I do like things like otyughs, carrion crawlers, and even black puddings being used/tolerated to help clean up messes. But of course these monsters can be quite dangerous to the people of the city! This sort of stuff has been done several times in various D&D settings.
As anyone who's studied the Middle Ages and the Renaissance knows, medieval Europe was not clean-sheets were rarely cleaned, people rarely washed or groomed themselves, and housewives would throw their garbage into the streets and rivers.
Uh, no. Actually people in the Middle Ages did wash and groom pretty often.
Bathing may have been less of a thing in the Dark Ages (pre-1000), but in the Middle Ages proper (ca. 1000-1400, what D&D is loosely based on), baths were common. It wasn't always easy to get clean water, or hot water, and people didn't bathe as often as we do, but the "going years without a bath" idea is a misconception. It was later, in the early modern period, that people got the idea that bathing was unhealthy and made a habit of avoiding it. We generally extrapolate from that and assume that if it was bad then, it must have been worse earlier. (See for instance https://suite.io/rachel-bellerby/47nj204 or http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/medieval-life/medieval-hygiene.htm )
I'm not saying of course that the Middle Ages were clean! Life then was probably a lot like camping today, where it's almost impossible to keep the dirty outdoors out of your home and you're always a little soiled no matter what you do. People did throw their trash and waste into the street, and that was a problem. Responsible towns tried to discourage that, but their ability to do so was limited.
Sorry, I don't mean to do a derail. I just hate to see misconceptions repeated. Your description of city streets sounds about right, actually. And I think your idea of how people in our fantasy world would handle sanitation is not too far off from the reality of the High Middle Ages (ca. 13th C). One thing though, I'd say they probably don't burn their garbage--most of which would be things like old bones and pottery sherds whereas our trash is largely paper products. Historically (at least outside towns) people buried their waste in middens, basically just a hole in the ground (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midden).
I linked to that Medieval bathing article for the reasons you mention.
RE: Medieval sanitation and water supply-
Medieval Constantinople maintained for centuries a quite impressive infrastructure, including sewers, cisterns, and aqueducts.
The East Roman Empire improved on Classical Roman engineering and architecture in a number of respects.
Constantinople for much of the period in question was one of the largest and wealthiest cities in the known world.
GH stuff, main topic:
Greyhawk (city) isn't huge and doesn't sit at the heart of an empire, but it is the "Gem of the Flanaess."
A fairly sophisticated sewer system seems quite plausible to me.
Not to mention the whole "Zagig builds megadungeon for fun and profit" thing!
:)
I'd make GH city unusual in having extensive sewers that people can walk around inside.
It may be that many other cities only have open sewers or plank covered ditches and pits. Or they might have have old Aerdy-built subterranean sewers of a smaller scale than the GH sewers, not all of which would be in good repair.
I wonder how forms of sanitation would differ between areas dominated by Flan culture vs. Oeridian (esp. Aerdi) vs. Suloise. Baklunish would presumably be much like the Middle East today and/or historically. But a comparison of sanitation across cultural contexts might prove a worthwhile article. A comparison across countries would too.
Right, good stuff.
I wonder how forms of sanitation would differ between areas dominated by Flan culture vs. Oeridian (esp. Aerdi) vs. Suloise. Baklunish would presumably be much like the Middle East today and/or historically. But a comparison of sanitation across cultural contexts might prove a worthwhile article. A comparison across countries would too.
IMC, I'd say that the wealth and technological sophistication of the city or state in question matters more than the ethnic background of the local humans
Given that:
The ancient Flan didn't build many cities of their own, barring some notable exceptions introduced in later writing (Sulm and such).
I doubt many contemporary states have a great Flan legacy of civil engineering. But that's ancient history.
Which Flan ''today'' are we talking about?
The Tenhas may be good at building cisterns and drains. Or not. Who knows? Nothing I know about the Duchy of Tenh suggests it's an especially primitive or especially advanced sort of place, but I really have seen almost nothing on it.
I doubt the Uirtag folk in in the Burneal need to know how to construct such things.
Most Balkunish (on the Darlene map) live in temperate regions, quite unlike most of the Middle East.
The Drawmidj Ocean has icebergs floating in it in winter.
http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Drawmidj_Ocean
Climate and water supply are things to keep in mind. Ditto terrain.
Some regions inhabited by Baklunish folk, like the Dry Steppes, appear similar to parts of Central Asia, from what I can tell.
The Suel of the Thillonrian Peninsula appear to have a very different culture from the Suel of the Tilvanot Peninsula. And the Suel folk in other countries in between appear different from both. Ditto the Suel savages of the Amedio and Hepmonaland.
What was the ancient Suloise Imperium like in regard to water, bathing, sanitation? Well, judging by the map, I imagine the old Suloise homeland always a warm and dry region, even before the Great Rain of Fire
The mountains appear to form a rain shadow.
On the other hand, isn't there some mention of it once having been fairly cool and wet?
Was there once an inland sea, a large freshwater lake that the Great Rain of Fire destroyed?
The old Suloise may have built underground canals/aqueducts, such as one can find in Iran.
IMC, I'd say that the wealth and technological sophistication of the city or state in question matters more than the ethnic background of the local humans.
Yeah, you're probably on the money there. Ah well.
CombatMedic wrote:
The Tenhas may be good at building cisterns and drains. Or not. Who knows? Nothing I know about the Duchy of Tenh suggests it's an especially primitive or especially advanced sort of place, but I really have seen almost nothing on it.
I get that impression too.
CombatMedic wrote:
What was the ancient Suloise Imperium like in regard to water, bathing, sanitation? Well, judging by the map, I imagine the old Suloise homeland always a warm and dry region, even before the Great Rain of Fire
The mountains appear to form a rain shadow.
On the other hand, isn't there some mention of it once having been fairly cool and wet?
Was there once an inland sea, a large freshwater lake that the Great Rain of Fire destroyed?
The old Suloise may have built underground canals/aqueducts, such as one can find in Iran.
Yep, they probably had some well-engineered sewage systems in their big cities at least, like you were thinking of with the Byzantines etc.
Yes, according to RR01 Suel Imperium there was a huge internal sea, the Kakuun Sea. According to the map there were salt flats on its northeastern shore, so it must have been a saltwater sea.
I think I also remember reading that it was lush and wet in the Suloise Empire. I don't recall whether it was supposed to be cool or warm though.
Last edited by peyre on Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
How much of a role would magic play in regards to sanitation? In 1st, 2nd and 3rd ed., the prestidigitation cantrip exists, and can resolve a great many issues, and is still low-powered magic.
Might comprehensive urban infrastructure and maintenance actually cost more than some routine apprentice-level spellcasting? Perhaps sewers are only needed for rain run-off (and to give the thieve's guild somewhere to hide).
What of other scavenger species? Oozes, puddings, slimes, etc., which could dispose of waste?
How much of a role would magic play in regards to sanitation? In 1st, 2nd and 3rd ed., the prestidigitation cantrip exists, and can resolve a great many issues, and is still low-powered magic.
Might comprehensive urban infrastructure and maintenance actually cost more than some routine apprentice-level spellcasting? Perhaps sewers are only needed for rain run-off (and to give the thieve's guild somewhere to hide).
What of other scavenger species? Oozes, puddings, slimes, etc., which could dispose of waste?
Zone of Sweet Air (Tome of Magic, priest spell) is a great spell for this. There's also Purify Food and Drink to assist in sanitation.
For scavenging creatures in a sewer, few beasts are better at sewage disposal than an otyugh (or neo-variety).
Otyughs are also intelligent and able to communicate with humanoids, so making some kind of deal with them may be possible.
I have described their waste as pure water and strings of nitre. They are animals, so they must excrete something. But I imagine it's not going to be what we'd recognize as poop, since they eat poop (along with all sorts of other offal, carrion, and anything that they garb with their tentacles and shove into their om-nom-nom holes).
Otyughs are also intelligent and able to communicate with humanoids, so making some kind of deal with them may be possible.
I have described their waste as pure water and strings of nitre. They are animals, so they must excrete something. But I imagine it's not going to be what we'd recognize as poop, since they eat poop (along with all sorts of other offal, carrion, and anything that they grab with their tentacles and shove into their om-nom-nom holes).
I have described their waste as pure water and strings of nitre. They are animals, so they must excrete something. But I imagine it's not going to be what we'd recognize as poop, since they eat poop (along with all sorts of other offal, carrion, and anything that they garb with their tentacles and shove into their om-nom-nom holes).
You could go with that, since it is a magical world, but in our reality flies and other bugs eat feces and still excrete their own fecal matter that is readily recognizable as fecal matter to us.
I have described their waste as pure water and strings of nitre. They are animals, so they must excrete something. But I imagine it's not going to be what we'd recognize as poop, since they eat poop (along with all sorts of other offal, carrion, and anything that they garb with their tentacles and shove into their om-nom-nom holes).
You could go with that, since it is a magical world, but in our reality flies and other bugs eat feces and still excrete their own fecal matter that is readily recognizable as fecal matter to us.
SirXaris
The excreta of certain insects inspired those strings of nitrous material.
Frass strings.
But you are dead right. I should say ''poop that wouldn't be mistaken for human excrement or the dung of horses, dogs, etc."
CSL seems to be leaning a towards the clean end of things, but without going sanitized.
Yeah, it seems like he was leaning that way almost 11 years ago even. I think you got in just under the wire though.
My Greyhawk is generally a filthy place, with few exceptions.
Yeah, I wasn't 100% sure if the thread necromancy was kosher. But I wanted to discuss sewers, public baths, urban water supply, risk of infectious diseases in towns, and similar stuff in GH.
Piggybacking on an existing thread made more sense than starting a new one.
On that note, does anyone get any use out of the disease tables in the AD&D DMG (1st Ed)...
-Yup. I've converted them to be compatible with D&D 3.5.
The search function seems to be on the fritz again, and I forget how to get around it, but I know this has come up before.
CombatMedic wrote:
RE Four Humours Theory:
What if it is essentially correct (on Oerth), though incomplete?
-I think Smillan advocated that.
I assume that a few "Commune" spells to Delleb would have put the Four Humors Theory superstition to rest centuries ago. Of course, some might not have gotten the word.
The same "Commune" spells would let it be know that sanitation is a good idea. It really wasn't a secret in our own world, just hard to apply. See George Washington's efforts with the Continental Army... ;)
I wonder if some diseases on Oerth might be spread by miasma?
The foul breath of Incabulos!
:()
That said, I see value in using real world scientific ideas as a default (this approach provides a useful baseline).....
-Hmmm... in most cases, I'd probably just go with the idea that Incabulous provides a vector, but in game mechanics terms, your idea would act like a slow-acting poison gas, but determined on the disease/parasitic infection table... Workable.
CombatMedic wrote:
...But I sometimes like to ditch RW scientific stuff and go with something more archaic and/or fantastical...
-Always a fine line! You could probbaly create a thread just for that...
On that note, does anyone get any use out of the disease tables in the AD&D DMG (1st Ed)?
Those seem like they work well for not only dungeons but also sewers and dirty areas of towns.
Although I am primarily a 2e user, I do fall back on several 1e materials, and the disease/parasite chart in the 1e DMG is one of the best tables around. However, I'd increase the base chance for contracting disease and/or parasites, especially if you make your campaign world a bit more akin to medieval times, or even modern-day 3rd world countries. How many times do 'we' put on the news (or read online) about various outbreaks in other parts of the world? Heck, even recently, there was an outbreak of measels (NOT the annoying, little humanoids!) at Disneyland in California...and this in a first world nation like the United States (though evidence points to the 'global village' phenomenon where it was brought from an overseas source).
My point: if you run a 'dirty' medieval-type campaign, outbreaks of pestilence should not be uncommon, even in a world where priests have access to healing. Why? Because there are priests of fell powers who can cause just the opposite (Incabulos foremost among them)!
What if it is essentially correct (on Oerth), though incomplete?
-I think Smillan advocated that.
I assume that a few "Commune" spells to Delleb would have put the Four Humors Theory superstition to rest centuries ago. Of course, some might not have gotten the word.
The same "Commune" spells would let it be know that sanitation is a good idea. It really wasn't a secret in our own world, just hard to apply. See George Washington's efforts with the Continental Army... ;)
Lo! I have been summoned! Not sure if I advocated for it, and can't confirm with the search function down, but I'm pretty sure I mentioned that it was present Septentrionalis, the precursor to the Northern Crown d20 setting, as an active part of the game mechanics; you would actually roll on a table to determine you character's dominant humor. But then astrology was a very real thing also, as it was to the people of the 17th century, where the campaign is set, so the planet you were born under affected your character also. It's an interesting idea. If magic exists, the four elements are an actual thing, alongside the physics of Spelljammer, and phlogiston, then why not humorism and astrology?
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