I have a question for, in a very low magic campaign such as Greyhawk often sees, where mages and magic items (probably excluding potions) are a rare and wonderful thing, how as DMs, do you cope with all those wonderful creatures that require magical weapons of various pluses to hit.
If there are few or very little enchanted weapons, how can you employ the services of those monsters which require them to be able to be hurt? _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
I've taken two approaches to this. First I have replaced the more mundane magical weapons (+1,+2) with exceptional weapons. These are quality weapons with a fine edge or specially hardened that impart bonuses to-hit or damage - but only if they are maintained and cared for. I allow these master weapons to hit creatures hit only by magic. Naturally the cost of these is prohibitive and they are very rare. There may be only one smith in the land who can make a +3 exceptional blade and it won't come cheap.
The other thing I have tried is to allow characters of certain level to be able to hit certain creatures. In 1e/2e rules I govern it by THAC0. When the unmodified THAC0 of a class reaches 16. they can hit +1 magical creatures, at 12 can hit +2, at 8 can hit +3 or better. This allows figthers to hit +1 at 5th level, +2 at 9th, +3 at 13th. Priests get +1 at 7th, +2 at 13th and +3 at 19th. Rogues get +1 at 9th, +2 at 18th, and can never hit +3. Wizards can only hit +1 at 13th.
Both ways, I have found, produce similar results because by the time characters reach the mentioned levels, they usually have the resources to acquire weapons, either magical or exceptional, to do the job. I do, however, prefer the first method, as the process of acquiring an exceptional weapon can be an adventure in itself.
Greyhawk is a low magic campaign? Crumbs, I've been reducing the number of wizards even further. I thought it was high magic!
I got around the lack of magical items by ensuring that each character was given one magical weapon over a period of time, usually as gifts for services rendered. Also by removing all swords +1 from all lowly guards and goblins in official modules
Giving the ability to hit magic only creatures to players when they reach a certain THACO is a fair and interesting idea. Remember that (at least in 1st ed) monsters have this ability - 4HD can hit +1 etc. So I would look at the THACO of a 4HD monster and say that any character who could equal or beat that could do the same.
Also monks and this barbarians have this ability, so you would want to make sure that other players did not get it before they did (in terms of levelor xp).
Even if the party does not have a magic weapon, any reasonably hard magic item could be used as a club, magic gauntlets could be used to pummel, etc.
I keep the low magic, but I don not adjust the creatures one bit. That is where wizards, sorcerers, etc come into play. Oh look, the party doesn't have one?!?! better find one. At times I will tone down the harse random encounters and whatnot of the party seems too overwhelmed by creatures such as this, but not too often.
................................Omote
FPQ _________________ Prince Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Castles and Crusades Society
I have a question for, in a very low magic campaign such as Greyhawk often sees, where mages and magic items (probably excluding potions) are a rare and wonderful thing, how as DMs, do you cope with all those wonderful creatures that require magical weapons of various pluses to hit.
If there are few or very little enchanted weapons, how can you employ the services of those monsters which require them to be able to be hurt?
I really don't see Greyhawk as a low magic setting. Cities such as Hexpools, Rel Deven, and Rel Astra are full of landmarks that are either innately magical or that were created by magic. Even the old highway system in the Great Kingdom was built using magic.
When I do run a low magic campaign, however, the lack of magic items is not that big an issue. Low magic means that not only are magic items rare, but so are magical creatures.
Well, if you need, for example, a +1 or better weapon to hit, by God you'd better have a +1 weapon to hit. As long as one or two players have the required magical weapon it's fair game to throw at them. A fighter with a +2 longsword and a ranger with a +1 battle axe is plenty to deal with said problem given the back up of a magic-user. As long as its something that is fair to toss at the players given their level. Its just funny to me when the players have forgotten or haven't realized the creature is one of these types and the battle has gone on and on and on and they're demanding "How many hit points does this thing have???"
If they didn't have the appropriate weaponry? Well, I'd just be less inclined to pit such a creature against them. It has to be challenging yet fair, but I do like Kirt's idea about using a hard magical item or gauntlets. If in a dire situation, I would probably allow it. I mean after all, who am I to refuse such a sight and gaming memory as a priest wielding a censer of controlling air elementals against a vampire he can't turn?
Another tactic would be to use a very low level spell to make the weapon useable against certain monsters. A bless spell, while being first level, can allow a weapon to hit undead or fiends, depending on the level of the caster and the type of opponent. Enchanted weapon can do the same.
If you want a really low level solution, how about specially consecrated weapons? A sword made from materials gathered from a fallen meteor, forged on church grounds, tempered with holy water and blessed by the highest patriarch of the religious order may not be magical per se, but woe betide any demon that faces the wielder of such a blade!
A sword made from materials gathered from a fallen meteor, forged on church grounds, tempered with holy water and blessed by the highest patriarch of the religious order may not be magical per se, but woe betide any demon that faces the wielder of such a blade!
Hey....that's pretty cool, O-D. I gotta write that down somewhere.
A lot of the suggestions here are good, although I'll offer a few thoughts of my own, some of which are copied from others:
1) Keep a tight lid on the number of magic items. One rule of thumb I use is that 40% of all characters encountered will have no magic items whatever, 35% will only have limited-use items such as wands and potions, while only 25% will have magic items of a permanent nature. This cannot be stressed enough; having every caravan guard running around with a +1 sword is the stuff of FR, not Greyhawk.
2) With regards to the magical creatures, I agree that they should be fairly rare, but you can also throw them at the party if they can battle it with magic spells. It might also make an interesting mental exercise-see how the big strong fighter-types deal with an enemy they can't defeat with their Power Attack and Cleave feats. Sure, you might get killed by those perytons if you hack at them toe to toe with an ordinary sword or war-hammer, but what if you managed to crush them under a hail of stones or a falling tree? That should do enough damage to get by a special defense of 15/+1, or what have you.
I think that while a balor demon might be immune to a warrior's frontal attack, but if a thief is daring (stupid?) enough to try and jump on his back while he's flying and tie his wings, making him crash to oerth, that should still hurt quite a bit. Injuries such as long falls or being nailed by crashing trees should hurt enemies that can't be harmed by ordinary weapons as much as they do PCs. A rationale exists in this for defenses such as the 15/+1 example noted above, and also for ogres being able to nail creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons in 1E. Resourceful players could find ways to deal with the creatures without slugging it out-and even if they don't kill them, just snagging and restraining or disabling them could still be considered a victory and worth XP. Impromptu magical items, such as gauntlets of ogre power for punching, or the use of a staff of thunder and lightning by a non-wizard, could be useful.
3) The magical landmarks described by adhevan should IMO be expensive and difficult to make, straining the purses of even the powerful noble houses of old Aerdy. Outside of the Great Kingdom, and apart from a few exceptions (the Gate of Glass, the Tower of the Silent Ones of Keoland, the bridge in Redspan, the defenses of Dorakaa, etc.) how many nations could afford the years of research and thousands of gold pieces needed to build these things? The dirawein of Northern Aerdy (I refuse to call it North Kingdom) are more likely used for critical shipments of supplies and the ferrying of Grenell and his highest-ranking nobles, rather than for simple, mundane travel. It probably took the nobles of the Aerdi decades to put all those things together, and put a major strain on their treasury.
Give the players some oil of sharpness and/or impact. In 1E, these oils, when applied to the appropriate weapons, not only made them do more damage, but also gave them a magical +1 bonus, in effect making them magical for as long as the oil lasts. If you have shops where players can buy potions, wands with about a dozen charges or so, and the odd spell scroll, these might make interesting things for intelligent players to pick up. Of course, if they forget to purchase the oil before going out, or lose it to a thief or pit trap...
I never really liked the whole need a magical item to hit idea. Instead I always used either some form of restriction that pc's could use to overcome the situaton without taking away the unique feel of these creatures which require magic to hit them. In the case of imps which require a +1 or better weapon to hit instead items like holy water or symbols of deities would harm them while steel weapons would bounce off their scaly hides cold wrought iron would harm them as well as pure silver weapons, but steel weapons which have an enchantment only do damage equal to their bonuses. So while i allowed for other items to effect this creature I made the need for a magic item uneccessary but still allowed for the creature to be effected.
Of course if the party has a priest or wizard character in the group this is a mute point. Another example is Mud men they could only be hit by magic but I also allowed for natural fire to harm them as well while water only strengthened them. In the case of golems I had different rules for each type Iron golems had a damage reduction effect of 8 so any weapon which did 8 or less points of damage would not harm them but would also have to make a save versus crushing blow or the weapon would shatter of course weapons of higher quality got a better save but iron golems can be hurt only by metal weapons as wooden ones were not hard enough to do any damage to them. Now if any of the weapons were blessed (via the spell or 25 gp cost if done by a priest using holy water) then the weapon would get a plus 3 to their saves.
Published Greyhawk is a medium magic world when compared to the other Wotc game worlds. But I limit it to being a low magic world were any magical item must have a history and a reason for it's creation, also a permancy spell will cause the caster to lose a point of constitution but multiple permancy for each spell cast into the item are unnecessary if all spells are cast on the same day. Of course if the permancy spell fails the constitution point is still lost. Magical potions and scrolls are ok for the setting because they are one shot items and will expire after they are used.
All in all any thing can be done to promote a low magic world but other options must be made available in order to promote game balance for the DM and his PC's.
Greyhawk is a low magic campaign? Crumbs, I've been reducing the number of wizards even further. I thought it was high magic!
Its low magic by D&D standards. Its moderate magic by overall game world standards, where some place like Harn would be the 'low magic' example. High Magic is the Realms. Published adventures, even for greyhawk, tend towards the high magic side of things.
As for magic items and 'hit by magic only' creatures, I am not particularly worried about the issue. As mentioned before, p&p parties can reasonably expect to have a mage and a cleric with them. Just as you have encounters where the spellcasters are not effective, so two can you have encounters where the beef is out of luck.
Also, its possible for the players to have suitable magical weapons and still maintain a sense of magic being not routine. If you treat every magical weapon as special, so will the players. Don't give out a "longsword+1", give out "Orm's Breath" (complete with a fancy description and whatnot). Magic is not cheapened by players having it. It is only cheapened by the players having a surplus of it. If you treat it as special, they will too.
Harn was the sort of down and dirty campaign setting I was thinking of. Does anyone know how mages are handled in Harn , do they exist at all?
As an aside, it would seem that from the posts here that a lack of magical weapons can be overcome, so I pose another question. How much treasure would the average dungeon have, lets say for example a orc cave complex home to 50 or so? I am thinking something like 50-100gp, 200-400sp and 500-1000 cp and maybe a potion.
I can see that if money is kept low, then copper pieces become valuable again, at the moment my players always leave the copper behind.
I am of the opinion that the money in a low magic world would also be low, so saving up for you platemail is a big thing, and not just "Oh 1,000gp, here my man, take it from the small change I have in my purse".
Even a replacement suit of chainmail would be a significant outlay. _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
Just to note, my DM is a wicked, wicked man with money in dungeons. Oh, we come out with a nice amount, but once we pay for training, cover our expenses, purchase new needed equipment, we're barely breaking even...you ever really keep up with the expenses of wizards in a campaign? And now that we have reached a stage where levels aren't coming as quickly, I've noticed the haul has dropped dramatically. He balances our treasure rather well.
And copper has to be the most annoying thing ever slapped into a dungeon. I see your point about trying to do something like limiting other coinage to make it appealing. I think it's the nature of adventurers to sometimes leave large amounts of copper. It's like lugging around a huge jar full of pennies that might net you three bucks. Why really worry about it when you have a hundred dollar bill in your pocket? I think that's a good idea if you're wanting to make a jar of pennies look interesting.
Copper becomes increasingly useless as one gets higher level. However copper can still come in handy. My players would use left over copper as donation bribe/money for the poor, less rich NPCs they encountered daily. Beggars can't be choosers ya know. Then of course you can use the copper metal melted down into other crafted items for resale. Or how about saving all those pennies and making a copper golem with electric conducting powers! The possibilities are endless.
As Tedra mentions, it's quite possible for DMs to be evil as concerns money. Sure, there might be 40,000 gold pieces in that horde, but only 10,000 of that is actual gold, with the rest being copper and silver. Only the highest-level dungeons (like the G series) should have the huge treasure hoards we see in those modules. Either that, or the treasure is a pain in the ass to carry. >:D
Of course, there's a reason Gygax had prices so high in the 1e DMG-he probably expected DMs to hand out lots of money, as he did in his earliest works. Enforce those prices when gaining levels, conducting spell research, making magical items, covering the costs of armies, paying tax and tithe, and so forth. And if players are unable to meet the cost of daily living expenses (which I admit are rather steep-I mean, 100 gold pieces per level per month?) work it into the plot-make them stay in leaky stables and rathole inns in the slum district if they have nowhere else to go. Most adventurers should be able to handle it, eh? This has an additional benefit-if they wind up paying through the nose each time they do it, players will think twice about how many and what kind of magical items they'll make, which helps to solve the aforementioned problem of excess magic.
In any case, adventurers can use copper and silver not only to bribe NPCs as mentioned above, and also get rid of those annoying living expenses-32,000 silver pieces might be an irritant, but if they get an 8th level character two more months in good clothes, I don't think they'll complain. Also, one thing that remains overlooked is that livestock, wagons, good tools, and other such knickknacks that are usually regarded as nothing more than props might be useful for the enterprising players-ox and wagons can be used to haul excess coin, and then be sold themselves for a tidy profit. They just need to make sure they don't flood the market. ;)
As mentioned, silver and copper may have less raw purchasing power for wealthier characters, but creations such as the copper golem could be useful as mentioned above. They could also be used to make magical items-a staff of copper could make a good staff of thunder and lightning, couldn't it? How about making a lovely silver sword to deal with lycanthropes, or creating wards against demons and vampires? Silver could be used to frame lenses of ultravision or other items dealing with the moon and night skies, and copper could also be used in conjunction with a glyph of warding attuned to lightning to give any intruder a very shocking experience.
One bit of advice, thought: you might want to gloss over the difficulties of carrying large amounts of precious metals and other goods and getting them through the wilderness to a large city. If a player can only carry 10 coins to the pound, then it becomes very difficult. Hiring porters probably has more hassles than it's worth unless the DM wants to deal with that stuff.
Thaks for everyones input. Having recently read up on Keoland, it seems an ideal location for a low magic campaign, since the local population will burn a mage as soon as look at them, taxes are levied on magical item creation etc. _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
The way money is handled is one of the things I really like about 3.5 rules. Exchange rates are 10:1 (except Electrum, which I always used as "foreign" currency), and you can carry 50 coins per pound.
And I seem to remember a column or paragraph in the AD&D 1.0 DMG on the effects of inflation. As the characters start to spread cash around, everyone knows to raise their prices for them. And if a whole lot of adventuring goes on in an area, local prices will get outrageous. Kinda like what happened in California and Alaska when the Gold Rush hit. (Eggs were a dollar each, and back then that was a lot of money.)
Funny you mentioned electrum I in all my years of playing in many campaigns, have never used electrum pieces. I believe they have no historical basis, and they seem a very strange currency to use, saying that I do allow mithral pieces, at 50gp worth, to exist, but the players keep hording them in a vain attemp to make mithral chain _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
Harn was the sort of down and dirty campaign setting I was thinking of. Does anyone know how mages are handled in Harn , do they exist at all?
Harn's mages(Shek Pvar) start out attuned to one convocation which follow an elemental aspect. They can attune to other aspects with a bit more difficulty but if they do they can eventually become a Grey Wizard which treats all aspects the same.
There are a few spells detailed in the game material but the character is supposed to create spells of their own to get promoted within their guild/chantry.
Check out some of their stuff if you feel so inclined:
Columbia Games
They have an awesomely detailed world and a very good game system. I am actually thinking about converting some Greyhawk material to their game system.
Outside of the Great Kingdom, and apart from a few exceptions (the Gate of Glass, the Tower of the Silent Ones of Keoland, the bridge in Redspan, the defenses of Dorakaa, etc.) how many nations could afford the years of research and thousands of gold pieces needed to build these things?
Hi,
I'm specially interested in the bridge of Redspan. Where can I get more information about it? BTW, is there any map of the city that shows where it is?
Saludos,
Gabriel _________________ Discord: @GrillWizard
I have to say that I have never thought of Greyhawk as low magic, but it is a world where powerful magic is coveted and kept safe. Every castle guard may have a +1 sword, either due to its crafting (admantium, mithral, just great smithing), or magic. But no one has a +5. More importantly, few people are spell casters vs. the general population, and they rarely have high powered staffs.
My 12th level campaign is tackling Castle Maure as we speak, and they have numerous low level items. 47 potions of Cure Light does not a Rod of Resurrection make. In 3rd edition, what differnce does a +1 make anyway after 5th level. The system works... a +3 weapon in the hands of a 1st level fighter is not a threat to a 8th level fighter.
Look at a 8th level fighter with 18 str and weapon focus, weapon specialization... their to hit is +13/ damadge is +8. Who cares if they add +1 to each. This is only +1 point of damadge, because they should have masterwork weapon at the very least. So, a +3 weapon improves his to hit bonus by 20%...the dice still drives the battle. Who cares if he has a +3 weapon.
Whoopee- the mage is hitting automatically with a magic missle, they thief is doing +4d6 dam (maybe 3d6) and gets flank or suprise bonuses, and the Cleric is waiting behind Sanctuary. My point is that low magic is not very accurate, and can be no fun. The only person who is low on magic is the fighter.
Also, if you do not want too many items running around, give charge items with only a few charges, and give and take away. Make a critical failure a reason to force a save or the weapon breaks. If any character takes 50 points of damadge in a round, or 100 in a battle, make the armor save. Make sure that they fail some of these saves. Take it away, give them something else.
There are lots of ways to maintain a level of magic consistent with the setting without being draconian with magic items. After all, if they wanted to play without magic, they would be playing Spycraft.
I have to say that I have never thought of Greyhawk as low magic, but it is a world where powerful magic is coveted and kept safe. Every castle guard may have a +1 sword, either due to its crafting (admantium, mithral, just great smithing), or magic. But no one has a +5. More importantly, few people are spell casters vs. the general population, and they rarely have high powered staffs.
My 12th level campaign is tackling Castle Maure as we speak, and they have numerous low level items. 47 potions of Cure Light does not a Rod of Resurrection make. In 3rd edition, what differnce does a +1 make anyway after 5th level. The system works... a +3 weapon in the hands of a 1st level fighter is not a threat to a 8th level fighter.
Look at a 8th level fighter with 18 str and weapon focus, weapon specialization... their to hit is +13/ damadge is +8. Who cares if they add +1 to each. This is only +1 point of damadge, because they should have masterwork weapon at the very least. So, a +3 weapon improves his to hit bonus by 20%...the dice still drives the battle. Who cares if he has a +3 weapon.
Whoopee- the mage is hitting automatically with a magic missle, they thief is doing +4d6 dam (maybe 3d6) and gets flank or suprise bonuses, and the Cleric is waiting behind Sanctuary. My point is that low magic is not very accurate, and can be no fun. The only person who is low on magic is the fighter.
Also, if you do not want too many items running around, give charge items with only a few charges, and give and take away. Make a critical failure a reason to force a save or the weapon breaks. If any character takes 50 points of damadge in a round, or 100 in a battle, make the armor save. Make sure that they fail some of these saves. Take it away, give them something else.
There are lots of ways to maintain a level of magic consistent with the setting without being draconian with magic items. After all, if they wanted to play without magic, they would be playing Spycraft.
D&D3E. Creatures with damage reduction. No magic weapon.
Hmmmm? Did your wizard or cleric happen to prepare magic weapon or greater magic weapon today? Did your bard or sorcerer happen to learn either spell? Problem solved.
And keen edge is a great spell to turn into oil of sharpness.
So is greater magic weapon if you want oil of sharpness and few permenent items.
Greyhawk never struck me as particularily low magic either. Powerful magic was rare, but the official modules had a fair amount of magical loot. FR has more, due to its higher mage population, but the differences are often exagerated. Only a few NPCs possess a lot of magic in FR and they are ones with immense power and huge access to resources such as Halaster, Manshoon, Larloch, and Szass Tamn.
My idea of a low magic world is Lanhkmart. Mages and priest cast at next time increment(ie magic missile casts in a full round,summon elemental takes a full hour!) Only the greatest of heroes have a magic sword and there are next to no magic creatures.
I agree with most of you, that you should dole out magic sparingly and with foresight. Monty Haul doesn't make for good gaming.
Vormaerin is spot on with description over numbers approach.
As for the hit-by-magic creatures, I like to use them to show my players the benefits of retreat. All the Pc's IMC have had to retreat. I like to have an adult dragon fly over a low level groups head and attack the village they are heading to. Eventually they will rise in level to find that dragon, but early on it sets the tone of a great magical world where, if they're not careful, they could be eaten.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
