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    Canonfire :: View topic - What if... Greyhawk version
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    What if... Greyhawk version
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:27 pm  
    What if... Greyhawk version

    Oh Wise and Sagacious Patrons of the boards, I have a request for knowledge most arcane!

    Well really My Greyhawk game has taken a turn for the dangerous, A BBEG has the Codex of Infinite Planes, she's setting the region to war among other things and the noble and valiant party is on its way to deal with it. In a twisted path that involves getting a sphere of annihilation from the Tomb of Horrors, after getting the Talisman of the Sphere from the Whispering Cairn they're going to hurl the sphere at the Codex and blast it from the plane. A bizarre idea has fermented to the front of my brain and I want to have something more than my own evil as hell mind to draw from. The Codex has played important roles throughout history. What IF this rather dramatic means of ridding the plane of it causes a skewing in the past, specifically it sways fate in favor of the Suel, and the twin Cataclysms becomes just one and the Suel Empire now rules the bulk of the continent? My idea is they hurl the sphere and they being in the 'eye' of the chronal-storm are unaffected and are the only people to know the true timeline. What would the world look like? Any and all aid in this would aid a slightly insane DM.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:41 am  

    Wow, that is a big question. Although I don't know much about the Suel Empire, it does occur to me that it could look like Netheril from the Forgotten Realms. Even if you don't want to go that way, I imagine it would be a magocracy where anyone who is not a wizard has few, if any, rights.

    It is also possible that another incident triggered a collapse of the empire. Suel Imperium culture would endure, but the empire would have ended. How much do you know about the end of the Roman Empire? I'm currently reading a book called The Inheritance of Rome, Illuminating the Dark Ages 400 - 1000.

    The repercussions of altering the timeline is huge, and in my opinion, would be like constructing a whole new game setting. It would be a high-magic world would without a doubt.

    The Grey Mouser
    'I drank what?' - Socrates
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    Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:43 pm  

    I've considered the Netheril route as I do have the books on it. My party should by the time this time twist would happen will be entering epic levels so I figured how best to introduce them to it than Suel empire! I do agree this undertaking would be nearly a new setting but the lure of seeing Greyhawk through the lens of the almighty Suel is just too much for me to resist.

    The questions that now spin through my head now that I'm more awake:

    1) How would a Suel empire having decisively destroying their biggest rival act? Would it bring about a resurgence in national solidarity and unity?

    2) how would the other nascent nations of the time react? Would having a strong suel empire make them put aside their differences and work together?

    3) Would there be a later date for a cataclysmic fall of the Imperium brought on by the hubris of victory?

    Ah such wonderful thoughts. I look forward to seeing what you all think.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:13 am  

    Quote:
    1) How would a Suel empire having decisively destroying their biggest rival act? Would it bring about a resurgence in national solidarity and unity?


    I think that having beaten the Baklunish, the Suel would still be faced with the challenge of controlling the now empty lands of the Baklunish Empire. The Baklunish rump states of Ekbir, Zief, and Tusmit would likely unify to oppose to Suel. While significantly weaker, they would have a new buffer (the empty remains of their former empire) between them, that might give them the breathing space they need.

    For the Suel themselves, I see them turning more inward. They now have a buffer between them and the rump Bakluni, and their other borders are nigh impassable. I think they would turn into something like Ming China, but not a radical as Tokugawa Japan, i.e. they would not likely be interested in the rest of the world (particularly the Oeridian rabble that decamped just before the Invoked Devestation), and would probably stagnate. While there magic would be similar to the Netherse, I would also limit their technology based on the "superman effect" as it was with Netheril. They would probably remain an unpleasant group, but perhaps too self-absorbed to pose an existential threat to the ret of the Flanneasses.

    This is a great thought experiment, I will be back with more ideas. Also, I recommend the book What If edited by Cowley, it studies military history and wonders how the world would be different if some key events had or had not occurred.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:00 pm  

    I think the Roman Empire would also suffice as a model of how the empire would continue and develop. After the Bakluni are no more, the great existential threat to the empire would be gone. Of course, this being a fantasy setting, it is easy to create new existential threats, such as baatezu and tannari. But I think extraplanar threats such as those would be the purview of great and mighty wizards, not so much for the common folk.

    Civil wars also strike me as something that would become fairly common, especially since the threat is no longer from the outside, but now comes from internal political rifts. Innovation and experimentation would stagnate. Neccesity is the mother of invention and without a 'great enemy' or other states that rival the power and dominance of the Empire, there would be no reason to create new things.

    More and more resources would be devoted to maintaining infrastructure. There would be a centralization of power. Eventually, as the centuries pass by, new nations will develop outside the empire and the Suel culture would spread and be adopted by new client states, which the Suel may or may not conqueror. These client states would also adopt the customs and political structure of the Suel. Others, may not adopt Suel culture and instead attack, like the Parthians and, to a lesser extent, the Germans did to Rome.

    Nature abhors a vacuum and after a while this concentration of power would spread out and away from the Empire. How this happens could be quite spectacular. A thought: in a magically powerful and ethically questionable society, I imagine there would be more and more liches. It is possible the empire falls into a great pit of evil and selfishness. We might even see the rise of a new, good-aligned deity of magic that is secretly worshiped by good-aligned wizards. A kind of savior-type deity like Baldur, Dionysus, Vishnu, or Jesus.

    Eventually, I imagine, the political, theological, and cultural rifts of the empire would become strong enough to where the main economic engine of the empire is weakened sufficiently to where the empire is no longer able to maintain itself and breaks apart. The Roman Empire was solvent and showed no signs of falling apart until the Vandals took North Africa in 439 and destroyed the Carthage-Rome breadbasket, the economic heart of the empire. By this time 1/2 of the budget's empire went towards the military.

    Those are some ideas, hope they help.

    The Grey Mouser
    'I drank what?' - Socrates
    Adept Greytalker

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    From: Verbobonc

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:28 pm  

    Quote:
    2) how would the other nascent nations of the time react? Would having a strong suel empire make them put aside their differences and work together?

    Basically, I see most events flowing as they normally would, though without the fall of the Suel Empire there are a few crucial differences. The Ice, Frost, and Snow Barbarians were already en-route to their new homeland in the Thillorian Peninsula, so that corner of the map will change little. The Amedio Jungle and Hepmonoland are spared an influx of refugees as well, and so their civilizations follow their own paths, though decay in both appears to have been imminent, refugees or not.
    The Oeridians were already in the process of migrating when the Invoked Devastation occurs. In the east, the establishment, rise, and contraction of the Great Kingdom would likely precede more-or-less according to canon. The big change would be in the Sheldomar basin. The Kingdom of Keoland would likely resemble the Great Kingdom in many ways as it would be more of an Oeridian creation. In this scenario, the demi-humans and Flan would be more marginalized than they were in the canonical timeframe. However, the result is that human culture in the Flanneasses would be more homogenous.
    The Duchy of Tenh might profit from the situation in the Sheldomar Valley, as it becomes a beacon for disaffected Flan (and perhaps some Ur-Flan). While Tenh would not become the Flan version of the Scarlet Brotherhood, it might resemble a Flan version of the Suel Imperium (though careful not to anger its neighbors). Think Tenh with an even bigger chip on its shoulder.
    Ironically, the lands of the Scarlet brotherhood never see them. Instead, Zeliff’s colony on the Tilvanot Plateau becomes a destination for Suel renegades and exiles fleeing the stagnation of their home. I could actually see it becoming a more chaotically aligned state. It would likely maintain a low profile, not because of any secret agenda, but to avoid messy diplomatic confrontations with the Suel Imperium which might claim sovereignty, though it would be unable to realistically exercise it. Overtime, it may actually begin to resemble the canon kingdom of Keoland as other outcasts are drawn to it.
    The Scarlet Brotherhood is never more than an unsavory fraternal order in an empire full of unsavory groups. They remain focused on their original remit: Suel purity within the Imperium. They have no interest in the Flaneasses, seeing it only as a source of possible contamination. Those minor Suel houses that fled there are viewed as hopelessly mongrelized.
    The Suel Imperium continues in splendid near- isolation. The Flaneasses have no goods the Suel cannot find elsewhere for less cost, and only the Bramblewood gap offers easy access to the Flaneasses, a very roundabout journey to get to or from the Suel heartland. A few daring Keoish and Sea Prince voyagers are exploring the Amedio Coaast for a shortcut to the Suel Empire. Of course, what they’ll sell when they get there they have yet to figure out, though the more unscrupulous might fill their holds with Olman natives...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:28 pm  

    I love all the ideas, each one brings another line of thought to the end product in my head. An idea that popped to mind, Planar expansion of the Empire. While true the suel can get iron ore from any place in reach the best would be directly from the elemental plane of earth, Why bathe in water that is less pure than what comes from the elemental plane of water? Could a desire for the absolute best drive the Imperium into planar exploration and conquest?

    Of course it COULD I'm the DM if I say it does it happens.. however the reason I ask is in the opinion of those who are more familiar with the Suel would that be likely. I can create any alternate present I want but I'm wanting to stay true to the flavors and styles of Greyhawk.

    Another notion that just popped to mind is the BBEG, an outcast Drow witch who through subterfuge is in control of an elven noble house. Anyway, what if she gets catapulted back in time and it is her that 'changes' the timeline instead of the Codex itself? She would have future knowledge and could sway things to her liking. This would give the players a specific point in time to 'fix' rather than the nebulous 'tipping of fate' which given my party would result in a fix that would have the dust bunny liches of Underdabedia ruling the world.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:13 pm  

    Quote:
    Would there be a later date for a cataclysmic fall of the Imperium brought on by the hubris of victory?


    There are a few ways to skin the cat on this I think.
    I. The Imperium stagnates as was discussed earlier. With no credible external threat (besides what may or may not be to the West in your campaign) and a bountiful territory, life in the Imperium takes on a “Middle Kingdom” character. This is not to say that there are not upheavals and civil wars, but just that the basic pattern of life in the Imperium does not change radically. Decadence continues, but the degree is variable.

    II. The Imperium collapses into warring factions at some point. This may provide a stream of refugees into the Flaneasses who influence events, or not. The question then is do the rump Baklunish do anything about it, and is anyone able to reunite a significant portion of the Imperium?

    III. The world ends. Netheril got me thinking about this, but so has S.M. Stirling’s “Dies the Fire” series of books. Assume that the Suel continue to grow in magical power, but their technology stagnates. The Imperium’s decadence increases, and magic and slave labor are used for more and more manual tasks. Eventually, servitor creatures, slave, and magical constructs are underpinning the whole food production system while the Suel themselves focus on scheming against each other. The Suel forget how to do almost all manual tasks such as farming, smithing, weaving, etc. because their slaves or magic does it for them. Finally, some Suel go too far and challenge the gods (i.e. Netheril) or unearth something, and magic just stops in the Imperium, or maybe across Oerth for a period of time. Perhaps all of the wizards are feebleminded (ala the Ice, Frost, and Snow barbarians). Suddenly the slaves realize that they can overpower their masters, and the servitor creatures run amok. Worse, the entire agricultural and food distribution system would collapse in days. Within a few weeks, people are killing each other for scraps of bread, and within months they are eating each other. The Imperium becomes a charnel house, refugees flee in every direction, and the ruins are held by bands of savages that were once members or slaves of the most advanced civilization on Oerth.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:09 pm  

    Jyg,

    For a twist on your last idea, you could confront the PCs with an ethical delimma. Maybe the new Timeline your BBEG is creating servers her needs, but is actually a "better" timeline overall. In fact, the alterations that she makes might inadvertantly produce a timeline in which the Flanneasses are happier, more peaceful, etc. That would force the players into quite a quandry... undo what appears to be a better version of their own world, consigning the inahbitants to oblivion, or do the same to their own timeline.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:50 pm  

    Ah an Ethical and Moral quandary. Always a fun thing to drop into the paths of players. From what you've all surmised about a possible alternate timeline I am one to accept that the Suel Empire being stable for longer would keep the major Suel migration from happening thus reducing the presence of Suel influenced nations like Urnst, Keoland and the like. Also a distinct possibility is a battle between The Suel empire and the Great Kingdom, Ah possibilities! Such a fun thing with a group this high level.
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    Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:25 pm  

    Awesome ideas floating in this topic. I don't know how I missed it! Here's a special bump!

    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:20 pm  

    Reminds me of something I pondered for a while several years ago. I was running a campaign that should have ended with Tharizdun being put away permanently. But, players being what they are, I felt it necessary to plan for what might happen if things went terribly, terribly wrong. So, I turned to the Midnight campaign setting for inspiration.

    You could do something similar, with the Suel becoming "overlords of evil" and setting loose all sorts of terrible, evil things. If the mages of power didn't get axed, they could become something along the lines of powerful sorta-dieties dividing the Flanaess amongst themselves and then maneuvering for supremacy. Of course, Iuz would likely object, but he'd soon find himself hard-pressed on several fronts - or perhaps welcomed into the fold, eventually to put himself on the imperial throne.

    Incidentally, in my case I eventually reasoned that the Scarlet Brotherhood, having dabbled with Tharizdun-related objects for quite a while (see "The Scarlet Brotherhood" for hints), were less than pleased with Tharizdun's release and in fact became rebels against his rule. If you use a similar event in your campaign, it might be interesting for your players to suddenly find that certain bad guys - such as perhaps the Horned Society, Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, or maybe even the Aerdian royal family - are now their last, best hope of victory against the darkness.

    Just a thought.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 09, 2010 9:29 am  

    To the OP: this is a really interesting idea! Some other thoughts:

    It's possible that the Great Kingdom at its height would finally attract some attention from the Imperium: its size, its ruler's grandiose title, and especially the magic being slung around by all of Johydee's Children. If you go by Ivid the Undying, there were lots of artifacts active in the glory days of Aerdy, and it's not unreasonable to suppose that the Suloise Power Mages would feel the reverberations of their use or misuse. They also might be curious about the discovery of such sites as the Cauldron of Night, Isle of Lost Souls, Tower of Unknown Depths, etc. Aerdy itself may have expanded even further, down into the Sheldomar valley, without an organized Keoland to deter them, or possibly an Oeridian state of comparable heft would be there.

    If Suel does take notice of Aerdy...if the GK's history changes so that it has not declined, the Suel/Aerdy war could take place around the PCs, and they could be agents for one side or another, or for a third party (Flan or Baklunish) that wants to sabotage or influence things in some way. If the war happened in the past, say about CY 100, you could rule that the two empires had their own set of Twin Cataclysms, or that Suel's second attempt to use the Invoked Devastation backfired on them, or that the Oeridians turned the Machine of Lum loose, etc.

    Other differences in the Flanaess: the two Urnsts (mostly Suloise in origin) would be gone; the Maure might not have migrated, or they might be even more secretive; the Suloise, exhilarated by their victory over the Baklunish, embark on conquests over the Hellfurnaces and themselves take over the Sheldomar...all kinds of possibilities!
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