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    Canonfire :: View topic - Kara-Tur was originally meant to be part of Greyhawk?
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    Kara-Tur was originally meant to be part of Greyhawk?
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:13 pm  
    Kara-Tur was originally meant to be part of Greyhawk?

    I recently received this question as a Canonfire! feedback message. As it is the sort of question that is perfect for the forums(and because I can't recall the answer regarding the map Razz), I am posting it here for those savants with nigh encyclopedic knowledge to answer.

    "Sender: Dragonhelm

    Message: Hi, I had heard that Kara-Tur was originally meant to be part of Greyhawk before they settled on the Realms. Recently, someone mentioned to me that there might be a map of Greyhawk with Kara-Tur in an old issue of Dragon.

    Any truth to this? Thanks so much."


    I am betting that d4 of you folks Laughing will likely know the answer to all aspects of this question straight away, and can give some insight into the whole Kara-Tur/Greyhawk connection; including any maps that may be involved.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:48 am  

    Several have suggested that Kara-Tur was supposed to be part of Oerth, but I'm not sure it's ever been confirmed by anyone who would know. It seems that Zeb Cook addressed that issue once or twice on Dragonsfoot, but I don't remember what he said about the issue (and I'm too lazy to look it up right now). I know Kara-Tur was never part of Gygax's version of Oerth, since his world was roughly based on Earth (hence Robilar's journey through the center of the world to China). I suspect they may have considered tacking it onto the western end of Oerik when they were designing it, but due to the problems occurring in TSR at the time they probably ditched that idea rather quickly.

    Concerning the map, I'm betting that's a reference to the infamous map in Annual #1, which is currently being developed by the Oerth Journal. On that map, the Oriental lands are west and south of the Sea of Dust and not on the western edge of Oerik.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:45 am  

    An ad in Dragon #102 said that Oriental Adventures was set on Oerth, but there was no map.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:08 am  

    Confirmed. It's actually not in the ad copy (on page 31), but rather in the Coming Attractions section on page 36. I've quoted the relevent section below. I have to say that the text seems a little ambiguous to me. I think you could read it as saying that there was to be a section on Greyhawk's "orient" (which would have been cut from the final version). Personally, though, I prefer not to read it that way.

    Dr. A.

    Quote:

    AD&D® ORIENTAL ADVENTURES Handbook
    by Gary Gygax
    As if Unearthed Arcana wasn’t enough, the Game Wizards
    strike again with a new, original rules expansion for the
    AD&D game — covering the worlds of the mysterious East!
    Oriental Adventures is a major new hardcover book that
    gives you the official character classes, spells, and magic
    items you’ve been demanding, including Samurai, Ninja,
    and Wu-Jen Oriental Magic-Users! Plus an expansion of the
    WORLD OF GREYHAWK™ Fantasy Game Setting covering
    the Oriental lands of Oerth! Reserve your copy now, because
    this is going to be the hottest item around!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:10 pm  

    Dr_Asworth wrote:
    I think you could read it as saying that there was to be a section on Greyhawk's "orient" (which would have been cut from the final version).


    That is what the ad meant. Greyhawk-specific material was left out and the book was made generic, with the Kara-Tur bit being its own stand-alone area to drop into whatever campaign world. Later, Kara-Tur was officially placed in FR.

    At this point I am doubting there was a Kara-Tur set in Greyhawk map(except maybe scribbled down in-office at TSR). The Kara-Tur wiki has a good amount of info, especially on what real world historical analogue each area of Kara-Tur corresponds to:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Tur
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:51 pm  

    Someone can check me on this but, I can almost recall that the map in Swords of the Daimyo was an east to west map analogous to our Pacific. The inset map of Oerik in the GH Folio likewise used to show what might be the beginnings of a 'west coast' that would fit SotD. Since then of course we've got stuck with the mega-continent of Oerik so fitting in a 'Kara-Tur' like I've described involves more overland travel and not a vast ocean.
    GreySage

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    Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:24 am  

    Possibly, Mortellan, though if the Oerik map shows the beginnings of Kara-Tur's west coast, I don't think there would have been room for a very vast ocean between Kara-Tur and Oerik.





    Cebrion wrote:
    That is what the ad meant. Greyhawk-specific material was left out and the book was made generic, with the Kara-Tur bit being its own stand-alone area to drop into whatever campaign world. Later, Kara-Tur was officially placed in FR.


    Are you contending that the original plan was for them to include both Kara-Tur (as a generic East Asia stand-in) and an entirely separate Greyhawk-specific East Asian region, or are you only suggesting that there were originally supposed to be notes on using Kara-Tur with Greyhawk that got cut? I think the latter is more likely, but it would have been nice to see an Oerth-specific take.

    I'm certain there was never a Kara-Tur in Greyhawk map published in Dragon Magazine. The Dragon Annual #1 map with the Celestial Imperium is the closest they got.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:04 pm  

    The latter. Greyhawk references were cut. I seem to recall that this was brought up at a convention discussion within a few years of OA coming out, so a long, long time ago. I forget where I heard about it, but I am very much inclined to believe that it is no urban gaming legend. My memory of things 20+ years old is somewhat....hazy at this point though. Wink

    I like the "newer" preference of mentioning how something generic can be fit into the various campaign worlds. If you rotate the second map just a bit counter-clockwise, it could be fit roughly into the spot where the Sea of Dragons is on the TSROerth map, thus replacing the horrid and unimaginably named Zindia and Nippon Dominion. Not quite a perfect fit map- or material-wise, but it would be simple enough to insert there; using the leftover material for the basis of the Celestial Imperium. L5R's Rokugan is worth a look too.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:40 am  

    bubbagump and I are hard at work on a manuscript for the celestial imperium

    *pleads for patience*
    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:58 am  

    Crag wrote:
    bubbagump and I are hard at work on a manuscript for the celestial imperium


    Glad to hear it. Did you finish those lands "west" of the Baklunish lands?
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    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:13 pm  

    I found the long-lost Kara-Tur/Oerik map!

    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:48 pm  

    Ah ha! So THAT's what was originally planned for the setting! Good find Rasgon! Happy
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:03 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I found the long-lost Kara-Tur/Oerik map!


    What is the source, or did you just PS it yourself? The scale of those added lands makes them rather...vast. And people thought the nations of Western Oerik were ginormous! Razz
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    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:05 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    What is the source, or did you just PS it yourself? The scale of those added lands makes them rather...vast. And you though the nations of Western Oerik were ginormous! Razz


    Yeah, I made it myself. And since Kara-Tur has two Chinas stacked on top of each other, it's supposed to be vast.
    Forum Moderator

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    Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:27 pm  

    Well done rasgon! That is exactly how I envisioned it back in the day.
    GreySage

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    Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:06 pm  

    Just curious.

    How far westward does Kara-tur extend? Where would Fireland be located with Kara-tur in the west like that? Confused
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    GreySage

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    Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:40 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Just curious.

    How far westward does Kara-tur extend? Where would Fireland be located with Kara-tur in the west like that? Confused


    That's pretty much as far as it goes. Past that point is the Hordelands, and then... whatever you decide to put there. Probably Aquaria, and/or the Chainmail lands, Empire of Lynn, etc. Or you could put the Forgotten Realms on the same world, if you really wanted.

    Fireland would be closer to the Thillonrian Peninsula, since Suel barbarians have visited it.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:20 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Just curious.

    How far westward does Kara-tur extend? Where would Fireland be located with Kara-tur in the west like that? Confused


    That's pretty much as far as it goes. Past that point is the Hordelands, and then... whatever you decide to put there. Probably Aquaria, and/or the Chainmail lands, Empire of Lynn, etc. Or you could put the Forgotten Realms on the same world, if you really wanted.

    Fireland would be closer to the Thillonrian Peninsula, since Suel barbarians have visited it.


    Yep. Putting Kara-Tur there is a fine idea for anybody who wants to do it, but it creates a whole passel of canon problems and "what ifs". Still, I wish Gary had been there to handle things at that time. Just think what might have been... (*sniff*)
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:11 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I wish Gary had been there to handle things at that time. Just think what might have been... (*sniff*)


    *The Scholar shudders in ecstasy at the thought!* Evil Grin
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    Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:01 am  
    An Idea of...

    Wouldn't we have a good idea by looking at Gygax Aerth of Mystic Journeys and flipping the east-west directions? I don't own that stuff so I'm just guessing.
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    Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:29 am  
    Re: An Idea of...

    Raymond wrote:
    Wouldn't we have a good idea by looking at Gygax Aerth of Mystic Journeys and flipping the east-west directions? I don't own that stuff so I'm just guessing.


    While that stuff may give us the occasional insight into Gary's mind, it really has very little to do with Oerth. By the time Mystic Journeys and such came along, Gary was pretty much into designing new and different stuff, saying on numerous occasions that he wasn't interested in dwelling on the past. Of course, that doesn't mean he didn't drop in a tidbit or two from Greyhawk here and there. Unfortunately, it's difficult if not impossible to figure out what those tidbits are - sort of like going through a pile of sawdust and trying to figure out which grains came from yellow pine and which came from white pine.
    GreySage

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    Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:50 pm  
    Re: An Idea of...

    bubbagump wrote:
    Gary was pretty much into designing new and different stuff, saying on numerous occasions that he wasn't interested in dwelling on the past.


    And let us not forget that he was probably carrying a little bit of a "grudge" by that time. Having Greyhawk taken away from him probably left him with a bitter taste in his mouth and he wouldn't want to give any ideas or concepts to the people who squeezed him out. Evil

    After all, Gary was just as human as the rest of us. Wink
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    Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:14 am  
    Off the Cuff DM

    I'm starting to get the impression that Gary didn't have a map of all of Oerth and what he saw in the Dungeon magazine probably didn't fit his idea of what he probably would have done. I get the impression that he probably made up stuff on the spot and would have made a map of Oerth had he needed it for his own campaign but probably never needed it. Maybe our interest in a map which fits Gary's description was made by Frank but he can't share because of IP rights. I have the impression that Frank's home campaign uses a planet which has his Empyrea setting and Greyhawk setting. It might look very different than the Dragon map since it would pre-date the map by many years.
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    Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:21 am  
    Re: Off the Cuff DM

    Raymond wrote:
    I'm starting to get the impression that Gary didn't have a map of all of Oerth and what he saw in the Dungeon magazine probably didn't fit his idea of what he probably would have done. I get the impression that he probably made up stuff on the spot and would have made a map of Oerth had he needed it for his own campaign but probably never needed it. Maybe our interest in a map which fits Gary's description was made by Frank but he can't share because of IP rights. I have the impression that Frank's home campaign uses a planet which has his Empyrea setting and Greyhawk setting. It might look very different than the Dragon map since it would pre-date the map by many years.


    Your suspicions are pretty much correct. Gary's original world was based more on Earth than anything else and he changed and updated it regularly, very often on the spot during play. Frank's campaign was entirely separate, though Gary and various others borrowed from it, adopted parts of it, etc., over the years. Even some of Rob Kuntz's Kalibruhn campaign made it into the mix, along with John Carter's Mars, the world of Nehwon, and lots of other influences. What we know as the World of Greyhawk, though it borrows heavily from Gary's campaign and various others, bears no direct relationship to the Lake Geneva campaign. It was written only to answer the demands of the many fans who wanted to play in "Gary's world". Needless to say, virtually everything written since then was made to conform to the published world of Greyhawk and not to Gary's own homebrew world.
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    Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:00 pm  

    Thanks, everyone, for your responses. That helped to clear som things up.
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