It's common knowledge in GH canon that Zagyg trapped "nine demigods of opposing alignments" (LGG.189), and we know for certain who 5 of them were:
Merikka - LG
Wastri - LN (LE)
Zuoken - N
Rudd - CN (CG)
Iuz - CE
All are confirmed in the LGG save Zuoken, who is confirmed in Expedition tot he Ruins of Greyhawk.
Erik Mona proposed adding the following to the list:
Xilonen - NG
Tlazoteotl - CG
Stern Alia - LN
Chitza-Atlan - NE
However, Xilonen is not divine at all, being a carnivorous polyp; Tlazoteotl is an intermediate deity; and it seems odd to use Stern Alia for the LN & Wastri for LE (considering his alignment is LN (LE)), when Rudd is not used for the CG slot. Chitza-Atlan seems to be the best of Mona's choices.
However, as Rip has pointed out, Vecna may be a better choice for the NE slot, as DVD implies that his cult had a resurgence about the same time Iuz & company were freed.
Furthermore, Vecna is an ascended mortal, as are 4 of the five canonical subjects. On top of this, the LGG seems to imply that Iuz was not a demigod at the time of his capture (p. 62), so the Godtrap may have actually benefitted some of its prisoners as it did Zagyg (perhaps some of his captives were actually quasideities to begin with). Given Vecna's knack for long-range planning, he may have allowed himself to be captured.
Looking for other demigods to fill the NG, CG, & LE slots, I looked to other pantheons.
The Touv pantheon offers the demigods Berna (CN), Damaran (NE (N)), & Vare (NE (LE)). However, using these, we'd have to move Rudd to CG to accommodate Berna, & use Vara for LE, & yet leave Wastri at LN, all of which seems inconsistent. I guess Wastri could be moved to LE & Stern Alia could be used of LN, though. We'd still need to fill the NG slot.
Of course, I'd prefer to keep to the theme of ascended mortals (Merikka notwithstanding), which Stern Alia & the Touv demigods don't seem to be. And I'd rather stick to gods that have followings in the Flanaess (ruling out the Touv gods).
Looking through the LGG, it seems Ye'Cind would fit well into the CG slot, & he's an ascended mortal. Since he's an elven deity, I decided to look at Monster Mythology to seek out other former mortal demigods (hell, Iuz himself is only half-human). The two best candidates I found were the swanmay demigodess Fionnghuala (once human), & the kobold demigod Gaknulak (who may have been mortal).
Therefore, my list comes out like this:
Merikka - LG
Fionnghuala - NG
Ye'Cind - CG
Wastri - LN (LE)
Zuoken - N
Rudd - CN (CG)
Gaknulak - LE
Vecna - NE
Iuz - CE
Any thoughts on these choices, Zagyg choosing (mostly) ascended mortals, or the speculation that some of them only became demigods AFTER release?
I forget the source, but I seem to recall Gygax once intimated that Hieroneous and Hextor were part of Zagyg's plan. The usual objection to this is that they're obviously not demigods - however, they were at one time, and their current status arose only through later versions of the literature. That said, I still think they could fit well with your "ascended mortals" idea.
I'm currently working on a redefinition and clarification of Oerth's deities in which I redefine "demigod" not as a degree of divine power but as a category including all divine beings who were once mortal and who still maintain physical bodies. By applying this new definition, both Hextor and Hieroneous (as well as various others) could fit the requirements of both the godtrap and canon literature while still maintaining their status as major players in Oerth's cosmology.
Of course, your version works well, too. I've never been entirely comfortable with Mona's idea, since it seems too contrived that the southern (Aztec-derived) deities be included in Zagyg's plans. They just don't fit well IMHO.
I forget the source, but I seem to recall Gygax once intimated that Hieroneous and Hextor were part of Zagyg's plan.
Oerth Journal #12. Thus Spake Gary Gygax: Ye Secrets of Oerth Revealed
Q: In a few places throughout the Greyhawk materials, Zagyg is mentioned as having imprisoned nine demigods beneath his Castle Greyhawk. Who were these nine demigods? (The following are per Rob Kuntz’s notes; do you concur?):
#1 Celestian the Far Wanderer
#2 Erythnul the Many
#3 Heironeous the Invincible
#4 Hextor the Herald of Hell
#5 Iuz the Old
#6 Obad-hai the Shalm
#7 Olidammara the Laughing Rogue
#8 Ralishaz the Unlooked-For
#9 Trithereon the Summoner
A: Yes, Rob is on target.
Q: Some of these deities listed are not demigods in later products. Did they get elevated in status upon escaping?
A: As to their demigod status, there is some “literary license” there, and the term should not be regarded as following the rules book in regard to classification of deities.
Q: Why did Zagyg originally imprison them?
A: Because he could! Actually, the idea was that from time to time one or another of the named deities “crossed” the Mad Archmage, or asked some favor, and in return Zagyg confined each in a special prison. Of course, he, and they, knew it to be a temporary matter, and that release was forthcoming through some heroic or antiheroic activity, as it were. (It was a prop for adventuring, of course.)
It's not a perfectly balanced list, but I imagine that Zagig had some room to fudge it a bit. I like this list because every deity on it is interesting or important in some way, whereas I don't really care about Gaknulak and I have other plans for Fionnghuala.
I'm of the fervent opinion that Iuz was, in fact, already a demigod at the time he was imprisoned. The Soul Husks alone should have been enough to push him over the edge, and when the Godtrap was used in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk it actually weakened its victims, rather than empowering them. The 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set said Zagyg imprisoned nine demigods, not eight demigods and a quasi-deity (or still lesser being), and I'm inclined to believe it. I don't believe Zagig was so incompetent that he empowered an entity he had hoped to contain.
Heironeous and Hextor were among Zagyg's prisoners in Gygax's original campaign, but they just don't fit in this role in the campaign as it's been published. Being the patrons of entire nations, they're just too important. Someone would have noticed they were missing, and the consequences to places like the See of Medagia (which would have lost all of its spiritual authority) would have been catastrophic. The alternative - that deities can be captured without their worshipers being adversely affected - is frankly unacceptable. It lacks all sense of drama to permit deities to carry on granting spells to their worshipers and pretending they were still enthroned in glory as if nothing had happened while shackled in a mad wizard's grimy dungeon. It's not okay for Medegia to still exist, as recalcitrant as ever, after its patron was missing for the better part of a century. The Shield Lands, Nyrond, Furyondy, the Great Kingdom - the consequence to religious life across the Flanaess should have been cataclysmic. Heironeous and Hextor worked great as prisoners in Gygax's original campaign because none of the players knew who they were and none of the nations were said to have them as primary religions. They could well have been mere demigods in the sense the game system came to define demigods, or they might as well have been. But Gygax's original campaign is not the World of Greyhawk setting that he eventually published, and not everything that worked for that campaign works for the published one. He refrained from listing any of the prisoners in print save Iuz, and I think he had a reason for that.
My most important rule, when choosing deities for Zagyg's prison, is this: their imprisonment has to matter. It should result in consequences to the setting. Otherwise, there's no point in naming the deity at all.
With Merikka, we can see the consequence in Against the Cult of the Reptile God, which shows her church to have become a hollow shell run by impostors and charlatans. They seem to have gone to some sinister reptilian entity for the spells they lost.
With Stern Alia, we see the consequence in The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. The Temple of the Correct and Unalterable Way has become beset by heresy and its priests can't cast high-level spells.
With Wastri, the consequence can be seen in the classic adventure Temple of the Frog. With his priests seemingly abandoned by their patron, an alien interloper gained control of his temple for a time.
For Vecna, the price was having to suspend his search for his Hand and Eye for decades, only nearing them again as the adventure Vecna Lives! begins. Which is to say, the most important result was having that adventure take place in 581 rather than 511. The aborted resurgence of his cult in 571 CY is more evidence that his disappearance mattered to someone.
For Iuz, of course, the main consequences were the formation of the Horned Society and the delay of his plans for empire until 582 CY.
The most consequential result of Rudd's capture was the subsequent brief incarceration of her patron Olidammara, who memorably assumed his carapaced aspect after Zagyg temporarily defeated him.
We don't really know much about Ye'Cind and his faith, but one possible consequence is an alliance or dalliance with Rudd, since Warriors of Heaven places both deities in the same realm. The loss of his recorder, to be rediscovered in some future adventure, would also be a potentially useful result.
For Zuoken, we know from the Oerth Journal and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk that his capture led to a migration of his followers into the central Flanaess to look for him. The presence of a monastery in Urnst in Ghost Tower of Inverness can be directly attributed to this.
That leaves us with Stillsong, from Monstrous Mythology, who I've always found fascinating because of how mysterious Carl Sargent made him. He didn't even tell us what divine rank Stillsong had, though it could well have been demigod. It's clear that Sargent had plans for it, but we never learned what they were. Stillsong is a being undergoing a millennia-long penance, being transformed from one elemental form to another over the centuries to purge it of its sins. Currently in its final incarnation, it takes the form of a sphere of pure song, moving through the planes to defend good creatures in peril. I think its time of solitude beneath Castle Greyhawk might have been critical to its evolution (it may have been a being of violent winds or fire at the time of its capture); Zagig's ally Heward might also have used it to help enchant his fabled Organ before it was consigned into the godtrap. The question is whether Zagig knew that Stillsong had some destiny the mad archmage and his patron Boccob found unacceptable, and hoped to contain it before it could be realized. I've thought that perhaps Stillsong is intended to, once its purification is complete, confront Tharizdun and destroy him once and for all, or even to recreate the multiverse after Tharizdun destroys it.
However, I understand that Gary Holian used St. Benedor of the Ashen Hand as one of the imprisoned demigods in his own campaign. He'd make a perfectly admirable neutral good prisoner, his absence allowing his eternal adversary St. Kargoth to gain in power.
"Demigod" works fine as a degree of divine power. That's what it meant when the World of Greyhawk boxed set was published.
Nice explanation, Rasgon. And I found this thought interesting:
rasgon wrote:
"Demigod" works fine as a degree of divine power. That's what it meant when the World of Greyhawk boxed set was published.
I've often wondered how a "demigod" actually fit into the WoG, not having had time to investigate the matter fully since my "return." In our real world, Heracles and Gilgamesh were two persons for whom the term "demigod" was coined and they qualified as such when they "walked the earth." And they had no worshipers and could grant no spells or powers to such. Yet, having parents who were truly gods, they were truly demigods -- among others.
So I've always thought of demigods differently than what has been presented here. I understand more fully why it is the term "quasi-deity" was obviously coined for the WoG game. For TSR, et al, Heracles is a "quasi-deity."
Hercules actually did have worshipers in ancient Greek times, since he was supposed to have been brought to Olympus and married to the goddess Hebe. In 2nd edition Legends & Lore, Hercules is considered a demigod.
Oh, and I started this thread, earlier, listing all the demigods of Oerth and speculating about their fitness for Zagyg's Godtrap.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
