Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - GH Collectors Guide - Illustrates the Problem and Solution
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    GH Collectors Guide - Illustrates the Problem and Solution
    Author Message
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:35 am  
    GH Collectors Guide - Illustrates the Problem and Solution

    This “Greyhawk Collector’s Guide” - http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/296532-greyhawk-collectors-guide.html - is an impressive and valuable work, and of doubtless interest to everyone on Canonfire; congratulations to the author on an extraordinary achievement!

    But . . .

    It points up the chief problem with Greyhawk as a published setting and all but mandates the solution to that problem.

    It is impossible to hold in ones head (or even have access to) all of this “canon,” to say nothing of the conflicts present in the “canon” that would need to be resolved. It is impossible to view this “canon” and not come away with the impression that Greyhawk has gone to seed to a substantial degree, tied down like Gulliver by thousands of Lilliputian “canon” releases. And this says nothing of the “merit” of many of these products, any number of which can be considered “dubious” – e.g. Childsplay etc. Greyhawk is simply a mess as presented in its fullest published form, particularly for any designer who might attempt fealty to what has come before – given this listing of what has come before. Any future Greyhawk releases will only add to the mess – unless . . .

    Greyhawk needs to be raised to its foundations and completely rebuilt. Forget the existing “canon” in its cataloged fulsomeness. Start fresh with those elements that a designer might consider “iconic” Greyhawk and then go from there. Perhaps institute a “Realms changing event,” to explain away the old and make way for the new? Or just begin again without preamble or explanation? “Building” on existing “canon” as cataloged seems the ultimate fool’s errand. Better a new Greyhawk be “cool” than “canon.”

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:59 pm  

    Haha, or you can just stop worrying about it. I don't see a prone, helpless behemoth tied down by hundreds of angry midgets. I see a delicious buffet with countless options that I can choose to put on my plate, or not, as I so choose. Some of the options won't be as tasty as others. I won't be able to fit everything on my plate at once. The manager apologizes, but some of the options aren't available at all. That's okay; there are still plenty of options to make a delicious meal out of.

    Over the years you've written perhaps hundreds of passionate missives outlining plans for tearing the restaurant down and replacing it with one featuring a smaller, simpler buffet that serves only the dishes you like best. This one seems little different.

    Your concerns for the difficulties faced by hypothetical designers hypothetically bringing the setting back into print are admirably compassionate, but I think misplaced. Limits in page counts will ensure the product isn't too bloated. Sifting through the chaff to pull out the wheat is exactly their job. Or, to return to our earlier metaphor, a new Greyhawk setting book is a plate filled with the choicest victuals from the buffet, just like your plate or my plate. If the buffet is large and varied, the quality of the sample platter the professional designers prepare is likely to be higher than it would be if the choices were smaller and more limited.

    While I'm sure a Greyhawk sourcebook in which the designers decided beforehand they would only make use of (for the sake of example) the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set, Greyhawk Adventures, the first two Gord books, and the 1990s magazine articles by Andy Miller and Lance Havvermale could be a splendid thing, I think a product in which the designers were permitted to draw material from (again, for the sake of example) Carl Sargent (even if they chose not to use the Wars), Paul Looby, Creighton Broadhurst, Fred Weining, Gary Holian, Wolfgang Baur, and David Noonan or anyone else they chose could be even better. And if they wrote an introduction clearly indicating that the reader should pretend no other sources beyond the new setting book exist, I for one wouldn't shout, "At last! Free from that terrible burden!" My life, at least, would not be improved in the least, since I was perfectly capable of deciding what I liked and what I didn't like on my own.

    "Glinda, do you think the Wizard of the Coast can grant me a simpler Greyhawk canon?"

    "Oh, Dorothy, don't you see? The simpler canon was inside you all along!"
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:29 pm  
    Re: GH Collectors Guide - Illustrates the Problem and Soluti

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Greyhawk is simply a mess as presented in its fullest published form, particularly for any designer who might attempt fealty to what has come before – given this listing of what has come before.


    The wiki can be a useful tool for collecting all the information about a particular subject available, which is one reason I began work on it. IMO, working on the wiki is a far more effective way to make GH manageable than calling for world-shattering events that are unlikely to happen anytime soon.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:36 pm  

    Wow! What a resource! Happy

    I'm going to have fits knowing all that GH information is right there available to me, but knowing I don't have the time to peruse each item I've never seen before, let alone make use of it. Razz

    SirXaris
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:49 pm  
    Re: GH Collectors Guide - Illustrates the Problem and Soluti

    Robbastard wrote:
    The wiki can be a useful tool . . . working on the wiki is a far more effective way to make GH manageable.


    I couldn't agree more, which is why I try to add to the wiki myself, at every opportunity. And that's one of the reasons my lack of "constant" internet access bothers me . . . no writing for the wiki! Mad

    Robbastard, Rasgon, your "wiki" efforts are appreciated by all. Thanks! Happy

    GVD . . . thanks for the link! Man! That is one heck of a list! Cool
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 494
    From: Dantredun, MN

    Send private message
    Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:43 pm  
    Re: GH Collectors Guide - Illustrates the Problem and Soluti

    GVDammerung wrote:

    It is impossible to hold in ones head (or even have access to) all of this “canon,” to say nothing of the conflicts present in the “canon” that would need to be resolved.

    A focused campaign in a single region or two proceeded by a couple week's research of the materials you've chosen to use resolves this problem.

    Quote:

    Any future Greyhawk releases will only add to the mess – unless . . .

    Nope - it'll just add to the mess. Nothing short of scrapping the map and inventing a new continent and political divisions while trying to retain a similar flavor will fix it. And besides, the real world is too volatile for a team of designers to ever have enough time to make a concise version of Greyhawk. Consider...

    1) Gary Gygax. Created best setting ever. Kicked out of TSR before publishing CG, Stoink, etc.

    2) Carl Sargent got a supposedly-clean slate after the realms-changing events of the Wars. He was well read and brilliant, yet bungled minor things like the humanoid tribal naming and his attempt to canonize the old Dragon Magazine articles led to awkwardness like the Shield Lands being invaded twice. Ultimately his efforts were halted because of TSR's financial priorities.

    3) LGG authors. Talented. Diligently tried to make sense of everything. WotC decided to stop publishing dedicated GH books.

    4) Jeffery Talanian. Brilliant. Didn't have to worry about all of that "canon" crap or even the traditional D+D rules, just had to follow Gary's vision. Stymied because of Gygax Games' financial interests.

    None of these guys have managed to complete a single vision of Greyhawk because of forces outside their control. I like to think it's possible, but our world doesn't show any signs of calming down.

    Quote:

    Forget the existing “canon” in its cataloged fulsomeness. Start fresh with those elements that a designer might consider “iconic” Greyhawk and then go from there. Perhaps institute a “Realms changing event,” to explain away the old and make way for the new? Or just begin again without preamble or explanation?

    Isn't this what "Gary Gygax's Greyhawk" over on Dragonsfoot is for? Smile Seriously!

    Quote:

    “Building” on existing “canon” as cataloged seems the ultimate fool’s errand.

    Yeah but it's fun if you choose your battles. I think the gods are interesting so I'm content to continue chasing the "complete" list of divine beings and 2E spheres like I have for the last twenty years. After that, I slowly add to my old issues of Dungeon while ignoring 4E, Living Greyhawk, and huge chunks of 3E.


    Quote:
    Better a new Greyhawk be “cool” than “canon.”

    Since we've never received a 100% canon product since the Folio, hoping for "cool" and somewhat usable is all we're ever done!

    Anyway, thanks for the fun, thought-provoking post. I don't mean to disagree with all your points, those are just my views and it's fun to write!
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 170
    From: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:56 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    It is impossible to hold in ones head (or even have access to) all of this “canon,” to say nothing of the conflicts present in the “canon” that would need to be resolved. It is impossible to view this “canon” and not come away with the impression that Greyhawk has gone to seed to a substantial degree, tied down like Gulliver by thousands of Lilliputian “canon” releases. And this says nothing of the “merit” of many of these products, any number of which can be considered “dubious” – e.g. Childsplay etc. Greyhawk is simply a mess as presented in its fullest published form, particularly for any designer who might attempt fealty to what has come before – given this listing of what has come before. Any future Greyhawk releases will only add to the mess – unless . . .
    Greyhawk needs to be raised to its foundations and completely rebuilt. Forget the existing “canon” in its cataloged fulsomeness. Start fresh with those elements that a designer might consider “iconic” Greyhawk and then go from there. Perhaps institute a “Realms changing event,” to explain away the old and make way for the new? Or just begin again without preamble or explanation? “Building” on existing “canon” as cataloged seems the ultimate fool’s errand. Better a new Greyhawk be “cool” than “canon.”


    As often as you (and to be fair, many others as well) have brought this up, no thread has ever so clearly defined the two different views of Greyhawk (and for that I thank GVD for the somewhat, nay... blatant, rehash of the topic).

    There are many of us who actually do a reasonable job of not only holding within our huge heads much of the material published on Greyhawk, but also resolving the conflicts in a manner sufficient to run a pretty darn interesting Greyhawk campaign. I guess that is part of what defines a "Greybeard". And rasgon is the undisputed king of Greyhawk knowledge. (His head must be particularly HUGE!)

    A time-jumping and/or slash-and-burn "Realms-changing event" will solve nothing. It creates a whole new campaign world, the resulting construction being the same campaign world only in name. If you like the result, then go with it, but don't pretend its Classic Greyhawk. You might as well be starting over and run Golarion at that point. For me, its that "baggage" that makes Greyhawk Greyhawk. Still don't like it, but want to use "old-hawk"? Then slash and burn what you want yourself. You don't need a hired hack with neither love, nor knowledge, of the world to do it for you (at 6 cents per word, on a deadline).

    rasgon wrote:
    Haha, or you can just stop worrying about it. I don't see a prone, helpless behemoth tied down by hundreds of angry midgets. I see a delicious buffet with countless options that I can choose to put on my plate, or not, as I so choose. Some of the options won't be as tasty as others. I won't be able to fit everything on my plate at once. The manager apologizes, but some of the options aren't available at all. That's okay; there are still plenty of options to make a delicious meal out of.


    Well said! I couldn't have put it better myself. I don't think I need to tell anybody here, but I am most solidly in rasgon's camp on this. There is nothing broken about Greyhawk that needs fixing. This is our campaign world, lovely warts and all. Like it, or move on.

    rasgon wrote:
    "Glinda, do you think the Wizard of the Coast can grant me a simpler Greyhawk canon?"
    "Oh, Dorothy, don't you see? The simpler canon was inside you all along!"


    Wiser words have never been penned on this website. I bow to rasgon's literary eloquence!!! Bravo! [Standing applause]

    vestcoat wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:

    It is impossible to hold in ones head (or even have access to) all of this “canon,” to say nothing of the conflicts present in the “canon” that would need to be resolved.

    A focused campaign in a single region or two proceeded by a couple week's research of the materials you've chosen to use resolves this problem.


    And therein lies the solution, if you can't, won't, or are incapable of resolving the conflicts within your campaign. Myself, I enjoy the challenge of creating my own creative solutions, and in the process tying together bits of canon that nobody else would think to tie together. I guess that is what *I* am known for, and how I put together things like my Codex, Twin Cataclysms, Isle of Woe, Kyuss, Circle of Eight, and GUT theories. I could never do what I do in a campaign world as tightly wound up as the Realms or Eberron.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    Conflicting canon solved! Mysteries revealed! All-new dishes served for the Greyhawk Smorgasbord!
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.32 Seconds