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    Canonfire :: View topic - Prayer (spell)- input sought
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    Prayer (spell)- input sought
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:39 am  
    Prayer (spell)- input sought

    Friends,

    This question pertains to mechanics that crosses editions, so I am putting it in this forum; besides, I think this site gets more 'hits' than others, and I would like to hear your thoughts on the following scenario/question:

    The spell description states that allies of the priest casting this spell garner a +1 to hit, damage, and saves, while enemies suffer a -1 to those effects. Here are my questions:

    1) Would this spell have an effect (beneficial or otherwise) on rival spell-casters' abilities to Dispel other magical effects (by making it easier or more difficult to do so)?
    I think it would.

    2) Would this spell affect Turning/Command attempts over the undead?
    I think it would.

    3) Would it affect ability checks?
    I am completely unsure about that!

    Those are the shades of grey I would like clarified by feedback. Thank you for your comments.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:56 am  

    I think you're trying to assume powers the spell description doesn't actually claim.

    In your own campaign, you and your DM/players are perfectly free to house rule the suggestions you've offered, and I must say they seem like interesting and fun inclusions for the spell (sounds like Prayer to me). However, I say again that the spell description, as written, does not give such power to the spell.

    SirXaris
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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:17 pm  

    Just thought I'd stick my oar in too. As a 1E/2E DM, I look at it this way:

    1) Would this spell have an effect (beneficial or otherwise) on rival spell-casters' abilities to Dispel other magical effects (by making it easier or more difficult to do so)?

    Nope. The spell is aimed mainly at missile/melee combat functions in-game.

    2) Would this spell affect Turning/Command attempts over the undead?

    Again, not turning specifically, even though this could be argued to be a combat function.


    3) Would it affect ability checks?

    Not as stated in the spell.

    As Sir Xaris mentioned, it is your game and the DM and players are free to add, delete, edit and/or house rule anything they see fit, so long as all agree and the game's balance (and thus its challenge and the fun that brings with it) are not affected adversely.

    To give another example from the second edition point of view, if you ever get your hands on any of the infinity engine games (Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate II - Shadows of Aum): To see how prayer was interpreted in-game by the designers at Black Isle back in the day, simply have a cleric character cast the spell on your party. Then go into the character stat screen and see what was changed. (I'm pretty sure the much older gold box games worked in a similar manner as well.)

    Finally, if you are still looking for an opinion, see if you can track down someone who is a Dragon Magazine aficionado. The rules columns (Sage Advice, Dispel Confusion) had questions similar or identical to this for all the editions of the game. That would give you a definitive answer from the source.

    Hope that helps.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:11 pm  

    Colleagues of Oerth,

    Thank you for your perspectives. This is exactly what I wanted, some feedback, whether or not we agree. Here is my take and perspective.

    I see the Prayer spell affecting the ability to Dispel Magic as a function of combat since, in my mind, a spell-caster is trying to assault a rival's dweomer. From the standpoint of a saving throw, one could make the same case (the in-place magic needs to 'save' from being removed).

    From the Turn/Command stance, I see it in much the same terms (from either a combat or saving throw perspective), and that is why I thought that Prayer would affect that action.

    However, the spell description makes no mention of this, and therein lies my dilemma. I am sure we are all familiar how rules get interpreted, reinterpreted, and amended, from one edition to the next, or one source to the next.

    Please, continue...I would like to hear more thoughts on this topic.

    much obliged!

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:20 pm  

    Someone misses Skip Williams!

    Ok Lanthorn,

    1) Would this spell have an effect (beneficial or otherwise) on rival spell-casters' abilities to Dispel other magical effects (by making it easier or more difficult to do so)?
    In cases where an attack roll is needed to make the spell hit the target yes. Otherwise the spells descriptor does not cover other spell effects.

    2) Would this spell affect Turning/Command attempts over the undead?

    As per the spells description it would not affect spell like effects unless an attack roll is required for which there is no attack roll for turning undead.

    3) Would it affect ability checks?

    In cases where a player would need to use an ability check to make a save it would otherwise it would not affect ability checks as per the spells description.

    Hope this helps.

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:00 pm  

    Yes, I guess I do miss him! Happy Ah, Argon, how you make me smile.

    Although not technically a 'hit' roll, I always interpreted the Dispel Magic base of 11, modified by the difference in spell-caster levels, as the magical equivalent. I interpreted Turning/Commanding tables as a type of modified 'to hit' roll for the acting cleric, or saving throw for the undead creature. Hence, my own personal rationale for having the spell affecting them.

    Ahhh, spirited debate. Love it. I wonder if anyone else out there has a similar take, or even a different one, or merely agrees with one of you.

    respectfully,

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:19 pm  

    Yeah I feel the same way, unless the spell says it does those things I assume that it doesn't. Then again I come from a new generation of games so my version of Dispel Magic is pretty specific on what it does, and doesn't do. As is our version of Prayer, but I can see where you are coming from.

    Generally speaking I agree with Argon
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:22 pm  

    You are likely wiser than I on that account, dear Iressi. Happy Argon is indeed a fine orator!

    anyone else on this before I add another query to this posting?

    -Lanthorn the Puzzled
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:14 pm  
    Re: Prayer (spell)- input sought

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Friends,

    This question pertains to mechanics that crosses editions, so I am putting it in this forum; besides, I think this site gets more 'hits' than others, and I would like to hear your thoughts on the following scenario/question:

    The spell description states that allies of the priest casting this spell garner a +1 to hit, damage, and saves, while enemies suffer a -1 to those effects. Here are my questions:

    1) Would this spell have an effect (beneficial or otherwise) on rival spell-casters' abilities to Dispel other magical effects (by making it easier or more difficult to do so)?
    I think it would.

    2) Would this spell affect Turning/Command attempts over the undead?
    I think it would.

    3) Would it affect ability checks?
    I am completely unsure about that!

    Those are the shades of grey I would like clarified by feedback. Thank you for your comments.

    -Lanthorn

    There are no shades of grey. The spell does not say "+1 on everything for friends; -1 on everything for foes". The spell is very specific, and only affects the things that are specifically mentioned in the spell description; meaning +1/-1 on "to hit" rolls, Damage rolls, and saving throws. 1000% sure on this. Wink
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:52 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:56 pm  

    Well, I guess that's settled. Embarassed

    The only reason I wondered is b/c I have come across times historically (i.e. Sage Advice, etc) when I see things amended, and wondered if there was anything else the spell would influence, and the thoughts or ideas of others.

    Nevertheless, I will continue to pick the collective brain. Thanks for the input, everyone.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:50 am  

    There are some spells out there that influence other things, but I think they were mostly 2nd edition spells. Wild Mages had one that would allow a character to re-roll their next failed roll(of any kind). You can imagine how popular that was spell was for said wizard rolling the Spellcraft Check to learn a new spell, that final roll to enchant an item, etc. Wink 2E had a massive spell repertoire to draw from though, and I am likely forgetting any number of chance-altering spells that there are. The 2E cleric War sphere may have had some too(I am pretty sure it did).
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    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:40 am  

    Thanks for your addition, Cebrion.

    I really enjoyed the added list of schools that 2nd edition brought to the game, both for mages and priests, though some spells were placed, in my mind, in 'off' categories. And, if you look from one book to the next (for instance, the Player's Handbook, then the Tome of Magic, and finally, Spells & Magic) some spells were jumping around from one school or sphere to another! It drove me batty. I guess it's stuff like that which makes me inquire so much about effects and rules, b/c it appears that there is little continuity between/among editions, writers, etc. So, if I appear bothersome on this account, please forgive my inherent curious or inquisitive nature (is it any wonder that I am a scientist by trade?). One of my premier players and long-time fellow 'hawker dubs me, "Tinker Gnome." Wink I am not sure if that's a compliment or not, but I take offense on the non-WoG reference alone. Happy

    thank you all again, and feel free to add as per your desire,

    -Lanthorn the Tinkerer
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    Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:25 am  

    I see I am a little late for the party.

    One thing I have that I think will make a difference when coming across, or otherwise interpreting 2E spells and rules, is the background (or spirit) in which they are written. I am going to school to be a paralegal and this is something that judges keep in mind when making rulings.

    I interpret the the spell prayer this way: it is literally calling for the attention of a god to come down and give his/her/it's benediction to the caster and his/her friends. This grants the +1 bonus to the priest and his/her allies, while enemies would be cowed by the demonstration of divine might.

    This is my take on it and I hope it helps.

    I look at the rules as simply a method of arbitrating actions taken by the characters, PC or NPC. They are merely guidelines. The construction of the rules are also given by the tropes and concepts that the game designers decided to use in their game. I will use the racial restrictions of paladins and druids as a case in point.

    I'm sure many, if not all of us, have had discussions with players (with me, newer players who are not used to 1E/2E) of why elves can't be druids. For me, its a matter that is deeper than game mechanics. It is easy to see why an elven druid in 2E would unbalance a game. As a matter of tropes and game concepts an elf would never become a druid because 1) a druid is a profession with learned skills and these skills are entirely part of human cultural norms, 2) elves don't need to worship nature, they are more closely attuned to it by their very nature than humans are so creating such an institution in their society never evolved, 3) druids are agents of the divine and their spells come from that divine source, elves have spirits and are very much a part of the world rather than short-term interlopers - so worshiping nature (or trying to placate natural forces with prayers) would be contrary to this relationship. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

    A good way to sum it up would be to suss out what the intent of the designer(s) was. I love going back to the 1E source material and see what Gary had in mind. I love how he specified what Hit Points are and the original write-ups on alignment. I found very insightful and brought a lot of texture to the game for me. The game stopped being a numbers game and began to take on a life of its own, like the story the game really is.

    ciao,
    The Grey Mouser

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    GreySage

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    Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:49 am  

    GreyMouser wrote: A good way to sum it up would be to suss out what the intent of the designer(s) was.



    This is what Real World judges mean when they say: In keeping with the spirit of the law.

    Real World lawmakers are not perfect and sometimes leave loopholes, which were not intended by the writers of the law. The above ruling gives lawmakers a chance to close the loophole.

    So I agree with GreyMouser on this point. Try to reason out what the actual intention was and go with that.

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    GreySage

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    Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:38 am  

    GreyMouser and Mystic-Scholar,

    I think that we are of like mind (?). I would not consider myself a 'rules lawyer' (had a friend who was, and he drove us all crazy), and prefer the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law myself. That is why I interpret a potential broader context to this spell and made the comment "shades of grey."

    That said, am I to infer that you two would allow a Prayer spell to influence turning/commanding and the effects of a Dispel Magic?

    Question

    -Lanthorn

    p.s. meant no harm, GreyMouser, about the 'rules lawyer' statement, given your career path...
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    Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:52 am  

    Personally, I would say 'no, prayer does not affect turning'. Mostly because a cleric's turning attempt is demonstration of the cleric's faith, investiture of power from his deity, and connection with that deity (made up mostly by his level). Taking into account the other pieces of the rules, and how they influence each other is very important as nothing exists in a vacuum.

    The Grey Mouser
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:22 am  

    Seems that the term "rules lawyer" is being used a bit loosely.

    Rules Lawyer(n.)- 1. somebody who argues rules to their own benefit, not necessarily to clarify them.

    You know, like a lawyer does with the law. Rules lawyer. Wink

    The spell descriptions are specific for ease of understanding, but also to make clear how they are limited in what they can do according to their spell level. It is a game balance issue. You can of course change things, but then it would constitute the creation of another spell, with a lesser/greater spell level depending on whether the original spell is modified to be less/more powerful.

    If you want a prayer-like spell that will affect every single possible roll that can be made with a +1/-1 for friends/enemies, it is going to be a much, much higher level spell. It is also going to require a somewhat larger description entry so as to provide clarity as to how it affects anything in the game that requires the rolling of dice(i.e. it likely adds +1 to any d20 roll, but does it add +1 per damage dice or just to the damage total; does it add just +1 % to a % roll, does it affect Initiative rolls, etc.). You get the idea. More clarity would be needed, the main reason being that things in rulebooks need to be simple and literal for the novice gamer.

    In general, you should take the spell descriptions literally, as they were intended to be clear and provide a very specific effect for a certain spell level.
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    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:31 am  

    Hello again,

    Does the 3rd edition have anything 'new' to offer on this? When I was intially pondering on this issue, before I posted this query and was merely a 'lurker' (perhaps many of you wish I'd go back to that status Embarassed ), I could've sworn that I came upon a description that allowed the Prayer spell to influence more than was initially written, such as ability or proficiency checks, too! I don't recall the source, however.

    As for Greymouser's explanation, I'd think that a Power would bolster the turning/command attempt by enhancing the cleric's faith to bind the undead to servitude OR have them cower in terror/blast them to bits.

    Another (minor) thought: my main player and I discussed the effects of Prayer on the damage caused by the Magic Missile spell. He was able to convince me ('back me down') that the +1 does not apply to each missile, but should be added to the lump sum total. Now, I question that. Just as a warrior gets the damage bonus to EACH attack in a round (for instance, firing two arrows, or hurling three daggers, or getting two melee attacks in a round), I would think that the +1 goes to each magic missile as well. This means that if you are the primary target of this spell, and the wizard fires many of these force bolts at you, each separate missile gets that +1 damage modifier. OUCH

    -Lanthorn, the Defendant
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    Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:44 am  

    Prayer in 3rd edition works like this:

    d20 SRD wrote:
    You bring special favor upon yourself and your allies while bringing disfavor to your enemies. You and your each of your allies gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks, while each of your foes takes a -1 penalty on such rolls.


    Thus in 3.5 It would not do anything to Magic Missile or any other such spell. I don't have a 1st or 2nd edition book handy, however I do have OSRIC so I will use that.

    OSRIC wrote:
    Prayer works as chant: His or her allies (within the area of effect) gain a bonus of +1 to all attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. Enemies within the spell’s area of effect also suffer a –1 to all such die rolls.


    Thus if we were using OSRIC yes each missile Magic Missile I would think would gain the +1 bonus just as fighters with extra attacks would gain the +1 bonus for each swing. I could be wrong though, and maybe its worded differently in the older books. So your millage may very.

    Spells should be read like contracts they should be taken literally or if they are too vague you should do your best to honor the 'spirit' of what it was trying to do. Just my two cents :)

    Also there is nothing wrong with debate, and the more activity we get on Canonfire the better! So don't become a lurker again hehe.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:48 am  

    Iressi, thank you for your contribution to this thread, and a 'summoning' for debate/discussion. That is something that I can offer! Just remember: you asked for it! Cool

    -Lanthorn, not a Lurker
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    Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:32 am  

    As to prayer affecting each damage dice of a spell, I am pretty sure the answer is "yes and no". It is +1 damage per attack. If you put 4 magic missiles on one target, it is one attack, and so does (d4+1)+(d4+1)+(d4+1)(d4+1)+1 damage to the target. If you split the missile to 4 separate targets that are close together, each missile is attacking a separate opponent, thus being separate attacks, so each opponent would take (1d4+1)+1 damage. The point of the prayer spell is to give a slight edge to friendlies, and a slight penalty to enemies. Consider it good luck/bad luck applied to each individual, per instance that it applies, but only when they try to do certain things, or someone tries to do certain things to them.

    There is almost definitely a Sage Advice on this somewhere, but that's a lot of Dragon mags to look through. I'll let somebody else look for it. Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:27 am  

    Hmmmm...tricky. I understand the interpretation. (nods) I'll toss this my DM/PC's way, too. Would call this a 'shade of grey?' Cool

    I'll give mega-props to anyone who actually finds this question in a DragMag!

    It gets rougher. Imagine the damage potency when both Prayer and Recitation (check out Spells & Magic) are used in tandem! That wracks up lots of damage bonuses! And don't think it's not done when possible in our own games.

    (FYI: Cebrion, did you get my PM? if not, I'll resend it to you).

    thanks all!

    -Lanthorn the Magic Missilier
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    Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:07 pm  

    I really don’t see much grey here. The spell is pretty clear that it gives +1 to attach rolls, +1 to damage rolls, and +1 to saves. Or in the case of foes -1 to all of these. It does not state +1 to skills or ability checks, +1 to spell DC, +1 to turn checks, which would be the forces affecting the other things you noted.

    The only grey area I see here is the +1 to damage rolls. It does not state +1 to physical attack rolls. Many spells and abilities also require a damage roll. In this case the +1 should apply to those damage rolls as well. The only question is how? Consider a caster throwing three magic missiles, each one at a different target. How is the +1 damage applied? To a single target? To each missile? I would rule you get a +1 applied to any target you choose before the damage is rolled. Not all three, since the damage rolls are considered a single attack. One could argue since they are separate rolls each should get its own +1.

    What about an area of affect spell? The +1 would be applied to the single damage roll that damages all that are affected 5d6(+1) 60foot sphere save for half for example.

    In the reverse consider a bless spell lowering the attack of the wizard casting the three magic missiles on three targets. In this case the player controlling the bless spell would choose which missile receives the -1 (once again before the rolls are made). It would be unfair to allow the wizard to choose, since the spell affecting him is a hostile spell.

    Your ideas are sound and can be expressed in other ways. Consider the roll playing element of the spell. Just because the spell does not give a quantifiable bonus or penalty in the math, does not mean the spell has no other affects. When the spell is cast and the affects begin consider a dramatic statement:

    “A sense of divine power bolsters you, and your enemies seem somehow smaller or less dangerous. Your fear of being in mortal danger fades away as you can feel the presence of (insert god name here) at your side, guiding your hand. With the feeling of (peace, justice, love, goodness, whatever) you feel confident there is nothing you can not do.”

    Just because a spell may not change the math does not mean it does not affect the game. I welcome feedback and opinion.
    Adam
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    Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:18 am  

    We've always played the spell as the slight benefit that it is. Area effect spells damage everyone, so everyone take the usual damage...+1 more. Basically, the bonus/penalty applies to each target individually, not to any damage dice themselves, meaning that each target gains/suffers to the same degree.

    Everything counts in small amounts, which can add up to sizable amounts with the right combinations. Then you can add abilities to the spells, like a bard could be bolstering the spirits of the PCs by singing, giving them further bonuses of various kinds, depending on the rules edition you are using. Within but a few rounds, your PCs can be laying that smack down with bonuses of +3 or even more after only a few rounds of inaction by only a few characters. Scarier still, these are all low to mid-level spells/abilities, meaning they are not too hard to come by. While I won't go into any details, over the years(and game editions) we have made liberal use of various combinations of spells/abilities to devastating effect.

    And remember DMs, enemies have ready access to these effects too. Evil Grin
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    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:27 am  

    A combination of both Prayer and the 4th lvl spell Recitation (from "Spells and Magic") can be especially powerful! I found that out firsthand with my fighter-priest of Trithereon, Belisarius. If you have any bonuses due to magical weaponry, Strength, and specialization, it is a devastating combo. But what Cebrion mentions is right; the bad guys can do it, too!

    -Lanthorn
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