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    Canonfire :: View topic - Gate-fest
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    Gate-fest
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:16 pm  
    Gate-fest

    I am awakened after a long quiescent period... Wink

    It's been a while since my last posting, and an interesting discussion arose last week during Greychat that had me thinking (this always gets me in trouble)...

    Regarding the Gating powers of Demons, Devils, and Daemons, now referred to as Tanar'ri, Baatezu, and Yugoloths, here are some questions I want to toss out there for anyone to offer some perspective (ANY EDITION welcome, just to be clear, though I am one to always take the 2e slant):

    1) With the exception of the daemons (yugoloths), do these Gated fiends serve, more or less, willingly?

    I say yes, but not stupidly or to the cost of their own lives. The CE nature of tanar'ri means they will double cross each other to survive or for a greater gain. The chance to cause strife, misery, and carnage is right up their alley, and the Prime Material is full of 'weaklings.' Devils, at least the LE ones, would be more amenable. Yugoloths, as per the description if you have access to the Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium, says clearly they are likely to turn on each other!

    2) What is the duration these Gated "allies" stay?

    I have absolutely NO idea, to be perfectly honest. My gut tells me they likely leave after the combat is over and they divide the spoils of war. Otherwise, the Prime would be overrun with such things even after only one summoning.

    3) Have you run into 'problems' where Gating got out of control (one fiend gates in several, which in turn Gate in more, and so on)?

    I can well see how this could happen. It hasn't occurred (yet?) in any of my games, as I typically only have fiends Gating in allies if they are losing a conflict, suffer damage to themselves, or are outnumbered.

    -Lanthorn (I leave summoning fiends to those of the Dark Path...hence, my Avatar)
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:54 pm  

    According to the d20 SRD:

    Quote:
    Summon
    A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.


    In 2nd edition's Hellbound: The Blood War the rules are much vaguer. It says the summoning ability works like a gate spell, but leaves the summoner indebted. It says summoned fiends can theoretically summon other fiends, but most won't because their power is limited to once a day or because they don't want to become indebted.

    A gate spell does potentially summon creatures unwillingly, and nothing I've read says that summoned fiends have to be willing. However, they are compensated for their services.

    I think the 3rd edition rules are better thought-out, however (though clearly inspired by the Hellbound rules), and would go with that.

    So:

    1. I don't think they necessarily serve willingly, but the summoner owes them a favor.
    2. They only remain for an hour.
    3. In 3rd edition, summoned creatures cannot themselves summon more creatures, since their ability to summon doesn't kick in until their hour is up.


    Last edited by rasgon on Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:10 pm  

    I have no argument with Rasgon's reasoning of the applicable rules, so I'll focus on some fluff justification to avoid the slippery slope of summoned demons, etc.

    In my campaign, souls that pass on to the afterlife have chosen their eternal bent (alignment) and never sway from it (sans the intervention of magical influence, etc.). This also pretty much locks in their eternal personality. This rigid dedication to one alignment philosophy is so different from the excercise of agency enjoyed by most mortal creatures during their lives, that it would be seen as a form of insanity if practiced by such a mortal.

    Each eternal creature (eg. demons, devils, daemons, guardinals, devas, etc.) has a dedicated role to play in their eternal realm. A role to which they are practically completely focused. When it comes to demons and devils, they share a dedication to the Blood War in common. Separately, demons, being Chaotic Evil, are bullied (to use an insignificant, mortal term Evil Grin ) by stronger demons and bully weaker ones for fun. They can be coaxed to the Prime Material plane for a chance to torment mortals for a short time, but time spent there generally means that their rivals back in the Abyss are able to supplant them or otherwise weaken their power once they return - a status change they all dread. Thus, they are generally loathe to be summoned away from their entertainments in the Abyss, especially for long periods of time.

    Devils, being Lawful Evil, are very keen to advance their own rank and power within the structure of the 9 Hells. Any distraction is a direct liability when it interfers with their schemes. A devil may plan to travel to the Prime Material plane to further his own schemes, but being summoned by another is almost never anticipated nor welcomed. Therefore, no devil appreciates being summoned by another devil to assist it any more than it appreciates being summoned by a mortal caster.

    Daemons can be said to have a combination of such concerns. As a result of their varied eternal focuses, none of these Outsiders appreciates being summoned to the Prime Material plane against their will. Doing so earns the enmity of said Outsider unless the reward is enough to offset the consequences. Thus, mortal summoners must either make a bargain of some sort (almost guaranteed to be unfavorable to the summoner in the long run), or have the power to force the Outsider to do the summoner's will. Outsiders who summon others of their own kind must recompense those who answer the summons or have the power to threaten them with dire consequences in the eternal realm if they fail to answer the summons of their superior (in rank, power, whatever).

    To these consequences you can also add things like having one's body destroyed on the Prime Material plane returns the Outsider to their eternal plane a) as a mane/dretch/etc. to begin the process of gaining power all over again, b) in a weakened state that requires 100 - 1,000 days of regeneration before they are fully reconstituted (in which time their enemies take full advantage of their inability to exert their full power), c) they lose not only the ability to return to the Prime Material for a term of 10 - 1,000 years, but also lose the ability to summon other Outsiders to their own aid for a like duration, or d) some combination of the above or other consequences of your own divising.

    These additional consequences, once researched and discovered by your PCs, will make it clear why such slippery slopes don't often occur: if the Outsiders are being killed, those already in the fray will be even more loathe to summon allies that will hold them severely accountable for summoning them into a losing battle which will set them up to suffer those same consequences.

    It will also impress the players with the power of beings that have the power and influence to actually summon enormous hosts of Outsiders. Iuz, for example. Evil Grin Of course, Iuz was severely weakened by Canon Hazen's use of the Crook of Rao. Unfortunately for him, he now has an enormous host of demons that are extremely furious at him for the consequences of the banishment they suffered. Wish I could witness his discomfort and frustration as he gnashes his teeth considering how he's going to get himself out of the eternal mess that he's now in. Razz

    SirXaris


    Last edited by SirXaris on Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:20 pm  

    Lanthorn,

    I think Rasgon and Sir Xaris have answered your query perfectly. I would add more but would find it redundant. I know BW was concerned with games that ended with multiple summonings until the game was out of control.

    This time I get to watch from the sidelines.

    Later

    Argon
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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:48 pm  

    I have always had a problem with demons and devils being able to summon their fellows. Devils, Demons, Angels, and Archons, are not supposed to have access to the mortal realm. It takes powerful magic to bring these creatures into the prime material plane.

    When I picture the abyss and nine hells I still see it as a prison or place of torment. Even the demons and devils (they are still evil after all) and are in the mist of punishment. I do not see them as content residents of their realm, but powerful prisoners who take delight in inflicting pain and suffering on anyone they can. Torture and domination is their only real escape from their imprisonment. The demons and devils fight each other in the blood war but both look at the relative paradise of the mortal world with envy.

    When a demon or devil summons its kind, I always assume it summons some of its servants. After all summoning unloyal outsiders would not aid it in battle. The servants serve them mostly because the summoning creature is far more powerful than they are. Most demons or devils have a percentage chance of success when summoning. This means that their once a day power can fail them. Without the powerful magic to keep them in the mortal world, summoned creatures are returned to their imprisonment an hour after they arrive.

    Some very powerful demons and devils can break themselves into pieces and send smaller pieces of themselves through to the mortal world.
    These pieces, called aspects can be found in a number of adventures. Since they are willing to “rip” a piece of themselves off and sent it away (lowering its power in the infernal realms) shows that even the most powerful demons and devils are desperate to escape to the paradise of the mortal realm.

    This is why portals are so dangerous. Any demon or devil given the option would escape into the mortal realm to end their torment and dominate the people of the world who are far less powerful than itself. Portals allow demons to simply step through a gate and be totally without strings in the mortal realm.
    GreySage

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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:10 am  

    In 3e, summon works like summon monster, which means the summoned fiend isn't truly traveling anywhere or risking itself. It's really a form of astral projection, with a temporary body forming on the material plane while its true body remains behind. There are no consequences to it if it dies while summoned, so it might actually try to get itself killed quickly so that it can get back to what it was doing at home. It's riskier not to get killed, because who knows what's happening to their bodies while they're away?

    In 2e it works like gate, so the fiend is manifesting in its true form and would rather not be killed.

    The Lower Planes aren't a punishment. That would only make sense if the multiverse was esssentially good or controlled by good deities, which doesn't seem to be the case. Good and evil are of equal power, and there are as many evil deities as good ones. To Hextor's followers, his realm is a paradise. Same with Erythnul. To them being banished to the upper planes where you can't conquer or torture anything would be the real hell.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:03 pm  

    I remember those demons gating in, and gating in, and gating in more and more and more demons. Laughing We found the solution to be dumping all attacks on the demon that could potentially summon the nastiest allies, and kill it before it could do so. Then, you continue doing that until you work your way down the little ones, who can only summon other little things....usually(i.e. beware the "lowly" succubus summoning a Balor on a snowball's chance in the Abyss). Wink Some of the demons will simply fail to summon something, so once they do, you save them for last, unless they are still dangerous enough to not want to leave running amok to begin with.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:49 pm  

    Good tactics, Ceb, if you can pull it off in time! Cool

    I've run afoul some fiends recently in a game, and it is NOT easy to slay them before those Gates start opening! My character, a fighter/priest of Trithereon, is having a Devil of a time (pun intended, sadly) with some yugoloths in the service of a high priest of Nerull. Our party tangled with a mixed group that consisted of some mezzoloths, a dergholoth, and a piscoloth. My DM and I use the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes appendix, and WOW are those things TOUGH. Evil Grin Only by luck and some powerful help did we manage what I call a win, meaning, we didn't lose anyone and we either 'slew' the yugoloths or they fled. However, we are far from done, and I am genuinely fearful of encountering fiends.

    Gandalf was lucky that Balrog wasn't a Balor...

    -Lanthorn
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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:48 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    In 3e, summon works like summon monster, which means the summoned fiend isn't truly traveling anywhere or risking itself. It's really a form of astral projection, with a temporary body forming on the material plane while its true body remains behind. There are no consequences to it if it dies while summoned, so it might actually try to get itself killed quickly so that it can get back to what it was doing at home. It's riskier not to get killed, because who knows what's happening to their bodies while they're away?

    In 2e it works like gate, so the fiend is manifesting in its true form and would rather not be killed.

    The Lower Planes aren't a punishment. That would only make sense if the multiverse was esssentially good or controlled by good deities, which doesn't seem to be the case. Good and evil are of equal power, and there are as many evil deities as good ones. To Hextor's followers, his realm is a paradise. Same with Erythnul. To them being banished to the upper planes where you can't conquer or torture anything would be the real hell.


    I tend to disagree. I would consider the universe essentially neutral. Most of the planes don’t seem to have any alignment of their own (elemental etc.) The gods seem to have some kind of stalemate or truce in place, with rules in place that govern their interaction with the mortal realm. The good gods seem to follow these rules. How often do parties encounter angels and celestials compared to demons and devils? Consider the physical surroundings of the realms. The good gods tend to live in places of paradise and live in peace with one another (generally speaking). The infernal realms are always harsh unpleasant environments filled with pain and constant war. I would propose that even Hextor’s followers don’t live in a comparative paradise. After all, how many of them will be conquering anything at all? Mortals are the weakest creatures compared to the residents of these kinds of worlds. Consider the ECL adjustment of even weak demons and devils. How often does a follower of Hextor reach 5th or 6th or higher level? How often do these monsters gain levels of their own? Clearly any simi-powerful demon or devil would easily be able to dominate most of the followers of any evil god who enter. A few extremely powerful souls may be able to carve out authority for themselves, but even they are under the domination of the powerful and often cruel evil gods.

    Also consider the freedom the mortal realm enjoys. If the plans of evil were not some kind of prison why would the demons and devil contain their war there? Weaker demons would flood into the mortal realm where their relative power would make them more powerful than most mortals. Even if the hells or the abyss are their natural and preferred states, their cruel nature would still lead them to leave these realms to conquer the mortal worlds. After all it is better to rule a strange land than be dominated at home.

    Also consider the difficulty of leaving the abyss or hells. How often have powerful demons or devils constructed portals on their end leading to the mortal world? No, it is always some wizard or cleric or something on the mortal world that brings these creatures into the prime material plane. Compare that to the relative ease that angels and celestials travel from the upper world to the mortal realm. Angels can just descend (under the right cermstances) to deliver messages or take up some righteous cause.
    As I said, the gods seem to be in some kind of a truce or stalemate. Perhaps the universe was formed that way. Perhaps the gods that the people of Oerth now worship are not the gods that created the universe then left or faded away leaving the current state of things. But the lower plains seem to be built to contain their inhabitance. A place of unpleasant confinement filled with dangers and cruel beings wanting to dominate. That sounds like a prison to me.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:13 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    However, we are far from done, and I am genuinely fearful of encountering fiends.

    Ah, but that is the way it is supposed to be! Laughing
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:56 am  

    Note that in 3E you also have the planar ally, planar binding line of spells which differ from summon monster/nature's ally. Pathfinder added even more stuff on Planar Binding here with lots of detail on how to make a deal with the proverbial devil :-)

    I also particularly like this great ENWorld thread: Help with minions for planar binding spells!
    ...which gives nice examples for specific outsiders to summon and what deals they are likely to make.
    GreySage

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    Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:38 am  

    shield2099 wrote:
    I would consider the universe essentially neutral.


    Me too. So it wouldn't favor good or evil. Both are equally rewarded, from their own perspectives. Evil beings are given a domain in which they are free to indulge their natures; they make this miserable due to their own proclivities, torturing and conquering one another.

    Quote:
    How often do parties encounter angels and celestials compared to demons and devils?


    That's really up to the DM, isn't it? Fiends are encountered more because PCs are more likely to fight them, so I suppose that suggests that the Lower Planes are easier to escape than the Upper Planes. See below for more on this.

    Quote:
    Consider the physical surroundings of the realms. The good gods tend to live in places of paradise and live in peace with one another (generally speaking). The infernal realms are always harsh unpleasant environments filled with pain and constant war.


    They reflect their respective natures. The Lower Planes are harsh and unpleasant because the spirits and gods that shape them are harsh and unpleasant.

    Quote:
    I would propose that even Hextor’s followers don’t live in a comparative paradise. After all, how many of them will be conquering anything at all?


    What do you think Hextor does with his spirit armies? He sends them conquering neighboring realms in Acheron. Of course, the spirits of the neighboring realms are doing the same thing, and not everyone can be victorious in every battle. Such is the nature of conflict. Still, everyone involved is doing what they want to do, or they wouldn't have devoted themselves to a god of war in the first place. So for them, it's paradise.

    Quote:
    Clearly any simi-powerful demon or devil would easily be able to dominate most of the followers of any evil god who enter.


    That's why they don't fight demons and devils, for the most part. They battle other spirits.

    But of course, demons and devils are themselves created from spirits of evil characters, indulging in their own form of paradise. Not all of them succeed in achieving their dreams of power - not all of them rise to become an Orcus or Geryon. Some of them remain pitiful manes or lemures until they're devoured by more powerful members of their kind.

    But that, too, is paradise. If you couldn't devour the weak, it wouldn't be paradise for an evil soul, would it? That's the nature of an evil heaven, a place where murder and violence is tolerated. The fact that sometimes you might end up on the losing end of this is the price you pay for paradise. What's the alternative, a place like Elysium where those with evil thoughts become hopelessly lost for all eternity in briars and brambles? A place like the Seven Heavens where stern archons prevent ambitious souls from getting out of line and only faith and virtue bring progression. No thanks. That's a hell for evil characters, not a heaven.

    Quote:
    Also consider the freedom the mortal realm enjoys. If the planes of evil were not some kind of prison why would the demons and devil contain their war there?


    They don't. More than one mortal world has been destroyed by the Blood War. But for the most part, fiends prefer to remain in the Lower Planes, where they have an infinite space to achieve their ambitions and they don't have to worry about the meddlesome forces of neutrality and good interfering with their plans. They're much more free in the Lower Planes than they are in the Material Plane, where mortals and angels and gods and fey are all up in their grill, closing their portals and banishing them with crooks.

    But for example, in the From the Ashes era, Oerth was full of fiendish fortresses and the like. Most of Iuz's domain was ruled by demons, and the magical fortress of Bloodcrystal in Almor was full of demons as well.

    How are the Lower Planes a prison? Aside from the prison plane, Carceri, who are the wardens? The multiverse is neutral, and doesn't care to inflict any particular punishment on evil. The Lower Planes are no more a prison than the Upper Planes are.

    In a multiverse with a benevolent, all-powerful god determining that evil is undesirable and good is desirable, it makes sense to assume that evil is somehow punished on a cosmic level. It doesn't make sense in D&D.

    Quote:
    Weaker demons would flood into the mortal realm where their relative power would make them more powerful than most mortals.


    Some would. Others would prefer to remain in the Lower Planes where they have a chance to achieve still greater power: better to reign in Hell than to reign over mere mortals. Weaker fiends don't have the power to cross the planes at will, though. The Lower Planes may not be a prison, but they are separate planes of existence, and those are always hard to cross.

    Quote:
    How often have powerful demons or devils constructed portals on their end leading to the mortal world?


    Often. Look at the gates in Lolth's web, for example.

    Quote:
    Compare that to the relative ease that angels and celestials travel from the upper world to the mortal realm.


    Not really. Eladrins are forced to remain disguised as mortals while they visit; if they violate this "veil," they're banished to their home planes for 1,000 years. Of the archons, only trumpet archons are permitted to enter the Material Plane at all. Angels may only do so with the permission of their deities - the servants of evil deities can do so just as often. Of the guardinals, lupinals are the only ones who routinely leave the Upper Planes, and then only to raid the Lower Planes. Rilmani can only enter the Prime when they "piggyback" on the summons of a good or evil entity.

    Fiends, by contrast, are found on the Material Plane all the time.

    Practically speaking, the Upper Planes are more of a prison than the Lower Planes are, if you go by official sources.

    Quote:
    As I said, the gods seem to be in some kind of a truce or stalemate.


    There is a pact between the gods, but it affects good as much as evil. Perhaps the fact that evil is more prone to breaking its word explains why the Lower Planes are less of a prison than the Upper Planes are.
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:08 pm  

    There is certainly some interesting discussion going back and forth about perceptions regarding the nature of the planes. I am inclined to think that the Powers have influenced the nature of their native realms (unless the planes predate the Powers and somehow 'spawned' them in turn). I agree that the idea of what is considered ideal to one is not the same as another's. An evil character would find the trappings of fairness, justice, goodwill, and mercy to be their version of hell. Thusly, the inverse would be true. And so on...

    I dimly recall a great (in my opinion) article someone crafted about the nature of the Blood War posted somewhere (Articles section, I think) that offered some perspective on the nature of that conflict and how it influences the Prime. One of you veterans will undoubtedly be kind enough to refer us to that work.

    I appreciate all the input on the nature of Gating magicks. It seems that only 3e has put any time of constraint upon such a powerful ability, whereas 1e and 2e rules have not. Thank you all for offering your insights, and if anyone else has something to add, feel free to do so!

    much appreciated,

    Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:17 pm  

    Regarding my previous posting:

    For those of you interested who have not yet read them, I suggest perusing the Articles heading, subheading of "Beyond Oerth" for all things planar, diabolic and demonic alike.

    Happy reading, and feel free to respond,

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:52 pm  

    It makes more sense for me to add to this previous thread rather than fashion a new one, as the question I have regards creatures from other Planes brought to the Prime Material (presumably as the result of Gating), and their remains...

    When demons, devils, demodands, and even beings of the Upper Planes (such as aasimon, moon dogs, hollyphants, etc) are destroyed on the Prime Material, is there anything left? I know they are banished for a time (I forget the actual number, but it is lengthy, like 101 yrs...unless that is only for demons etc), but is their an actual carcass left behind? Or just a slick or smear? Nothing at all, perhaps? If so, how do mages and priests get rare components of these beings (unless it is only possible to do so on their native planes, but only after destroying them)? My fellow DM/player and I are equally at a loss on this one...

    -Lanthorn the Ever-Curious
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:57 pm  

    Unless someone can produce an answer from canon, I think you'll just have to decide based upon game balance in your campaign.

    Summoned monsters disappear completely when their time is up, or they are killed, along with all of their possessions. The same should be true for summoned/gated Outsiders.

    Perhaps a compromise solution to your problem of components could be that the Outsider's body and equipment immediately decomposes into a pile of demonic goo or heavenly ambrosia, as the case may be. Thus, what remains can be collected in phials, etc. for use in arcane/divine experimentation, but no magical equipment is left for collection. Alternatively, this may only be applied to equipment originating upon the Outsider's native plane. Any equipment (ie. magical items) the being acquired from (now dead) plane-hopping mortals may remain behind as treasure. Thus, the DM is free to equip the bad guys as he likes while remaining fully in control of what treasure the party acquires.

    SirXaris
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    Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:49 pm  

    Organs can be harvested from living fiends, of course, or from fiends killed on their home plane. Generally if it's killed outside its home plane, its body travels back to its plane of origin somehow, though it may leave remnants behind. There's actually a chart in Fiendish Codex I that offers random things that can happen to a demon's corpse after the demon is killed - it melts into ichor, its dead head curses at you before vanishing, it crumbles into dust, it rots away to a skeleton (which remains), it bursts into flame and freezes simultaneously, it turns to stone and shrinks to the size of a tiny statuette, it turns into mist, or maybe it just leaves a complete corpse, like a human would.
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:08 am  

    What is the banishment term served for being 'destroyed' on the Prime Material for denizens of other planes?

    I assume this means ALL such creatures, not just fiends and those of evil. Or am I mistaken?

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:04 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    What is the banishment term served for being 'destroyed' on the Prime Material for denizens of other planes?

    I assume this means ALL such creatures, not just fiends and those of evil. Or am I mistaken?


    It depends on the species.

    Daemon: "Lesser daemons on any plane may be slain forever, their spirits reincarnated in a different form after their death. Greater daemons can only be truly killed on one of the three planes to which they are native. Slaying a greater daemon elsewhere merely sends its essence back to that home plane and its material body slowly re-forms after a period of time (one year per hit die)." (1e MMII)

    "[Arcanaloths] are destroyed only if they die on Gehenna, their source of power." (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix)

    "Charon's form may be destroyed, but never truly slain, as he is native to all five of the lower planes. His form will cease to exist on that plane for a single day before returning." (1e MMII)

    Demon: "Demons of Type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material forms being removed from use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again. However, if demons are encountered on their home plane, they can be slain." (1e MM)

    Deva: "When on the Prime Material Plane or any Elemental Plane, only the material body of a deva may be destroyed. The spirit of a deva is invulnerable and will return to its home plane instantly upon destruction of its fleshy form, there to remain for a decade and regain the power necessary to again form a corporeal body. Note, however, that when on any other plane, all devas are subject to actual death." (1e MMII)

    Devil: "It is possible to destroy the material form of a greater devil or duke of Hell, but such creatures can not be slain unless encountered and fought in Hell or those lower planes adjacent to it... If a greater devil has its material form destroyed it is forced to lemure status for nine decades of torment before it resumes its former station. If the material form of a duke is destroyed, it is bound to its own particular plane of Hell for a decade (unless again properly called prior to the end of the ten years), and a great loss of face is suffered." (1e MMII)

    Planetar: "Unless encountered on the Upper Outer Planes, only the material form of these creatures can be harmed. The planetar's spirit returns to its home plane to re-form and become corporeal again; the process requires four decades." (1e MMII)

    Slaad: "If a green slaad has its mortal form destroyed but this symbol remains intact, it will reincarnate after 24 hours as a blue slaad, remaining in that form for a year and a day before turning green once again and resuming its former powers." (1e FF)

    "Should the bashers defeat the gray slaad, it eventually becomes reincarnated into the form of a green slaad. When it recovers its gray form, as it eventually will, it realizes that the PCs are stronger than it is. It seeks to prove to itself that it's still worthy to challenge the death slaad. But before it can do that, it must regain faith in itself - faith the bashers destroyed.

    "Company's coming, berk.

    "After at least a year and a day, the gray slaad will come looking for the individual cutter that defeated it and challenge this PC to another single combat. It wants to fight only this champion, but may have to settle for another character if it can't find its choice." (Well of Worlds)

    Solar: "Unless on their home plane of service, only the material form of a solar can be destroyed. The solar's spirit returns instantly to its home plane to re-form a corporeal body, but this requires seven decades." (1e MMII)

    Demodands and modrons can apparently be slain anywhere, but a member of a lower caste is instantly promoted to replace them. New farastu are created from corpses on the battlefields of Carceri, while new monodrones are created from the well of energy in Regulus. Archons simply die forever if killed off-plane, according to Planes of Law (though I personally would ignore that, as it's based on the assumption that they're treated as ordinary petitioners even though this isn't true for any of the other major planar races). Details on the deaths of other planar creatures like rilmani, eladrins, guardinals, elementals, and genies haven't been revealed, so you'll have to use your own best judgment.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:28 am  

    Master Rasgon,

    You are a fountain of knowledge. Thank you very much!

    -Lanthorn, apprentice
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 10, 2001
    Posts: 225
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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:25 am  

    When it comes to destroying demons, do not overlook the demons' amulet:

    "Demons’ Amulets: Demon lords and princes maintain their vital essences in small containers - their souls, so to speak, are thus at once protected and yet vulnerable is some enterprising character should gain the amulet. Demons with amulets are able to magic jar once per day. Demons’ amulets can not be detected as such by any magical means, and they do not otherwise appear unusual in any way. The device need not be with the most powerful princes, although the lesser typically need to carry theirs on or near their persons. Possession of the amulet gives the possessor power over the demon to whom it “belongs” for the space of, for example, one adventure, and never more than a day (24 hours). The amulet must then be returned to the demon - or it can be destroyed and thus condemn the prince to abyssment for a year (and he may return thereafter only if summoned). Use of an amulet is very, very dangerous. Possession of one will double chances of calling the attention of another demon, and any demon not controlled by the device will immediately attack the person possessing such an amulet. If the amulet leaves the hand of the one commanding the demon to whom it belongs, that demon attacks him in its most effective fashion immediately, attempting his utmost to slay and then to carry all that remains to his own domain, i.e. that character is lost and gone forever. On the positive side, however, if the wielder of the amulet carefully repays the demon for aid rendered, adds a considerable sum for having the temerity to dare to command the demon in the first place, and then carefully restores the amulet to the demon, the prince might not bear him a grudge forever afterwards nor seek to hunt him out whenever possible." (1e MM)
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:51 pm  

    Aeolius wrote:
    Demons’ amulets can not be detected as such by any magical means, and they do not otherwise appear unusual in any way.
    ...
    Possession of one will double chances of calling the attention of another demon, and any demon not controlled by the device will immediately attack the person possessing such an amulet.


    Got any good justification for this apparent contradiction? Cool

    SirXaris
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:52 pm  

    Aeolius wrote:
    Demons’ amulets can not be detected as such by any magical means, and they do not otherwise appear unusual in any way.
    ...
    Possession of one will double chances of calling the attention of another demon, and any demon not controlled by the device will immediately attack the person possessing such an amulet.


    Got any good justification for this apparent contradiction? Cool

    SirXaris
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:56 pm  

    Presumably, other demons detect them in some non-magical way. By smell, maybe. But they're not identifiable to PCs.

    Demon amulets are one of those quirky first-edition things that were never mentioned again. Can devils and solars make them? Can gods have amulets? No one knows.

    There are also devil talismans in the 1e MM, but those are combinations of symbols that can be known rather than objects with diabolic souls inside them. They're pretty funky too, in the way they work.
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