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    Canonfire :: View topic - Dispel Magic vs. Border Ethereal
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Dispel Magic vs. Border Ethereal
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:18 pm  
    Dispel Magic vs. Border Ethereal

    OK, still asking input, but this situation came up last night in a game and I am interested if someone has an answer (opinions count too). Not sure if this is an edition-related query or not, so here goes:

    A character is going Ethereal via spell (3rd level priest spell in Spells & Magic), accessing the Border Ethereal with three other characters. It takes one segment to cast, but a round to go fully Ethereal (according to Manual of the Planes). Many spell effects are working on these characters (primarily protective ones), as they are preparing for combat.

    A rival spell-caster hurls a Dispel Magic successfully, thereby nullifying the Etherealness spell. Page 11 says this is possible.

    Question: Does the Dispel Magic counter the spell effects placed on them, too?

    I looked in the Manual of the Planes, but saw nothing conclusive either way. I ruled that the Dispel Magic would have a chance to remove the spells in place since it is able to penetrate into the Border Ethereal plane and remove them back to the Prime.

    Can anyone offer something conclusive one way or the other (citation would be great, esp. if I overlooked something in the Manual of the Planes)? I hope to have this resolved before my next session, if possible! We stopped at that point just as a Fireball was hurled...

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:57 pm  

    I may be mistaken -- depending on the game edition -- but Dispel Magic only removes one spell effect, not multiple effects.

    So I believe your player would have to decide which one spell he/she was targeting with his/her spell and that's the one spell that would be "annulled." The other spell protections would remain in effect.

    But that may change depending on the edition your group is playing with. Wink
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    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:56 pm  

    My understanding of the the effects of the Dispel Magic spell are identical to Mystic-Scholar's in this regard. Dispel Magic is target specific. That is, it only affects the spell it targets, not everything else in the viscinity. You would need a Dispel Magic 10 foot Radius spell for that. Wink

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:04 pm  

    Dispel Magic affects either a 30 foot cube, affecting spells or spell-like effects in that area, OR a single, permanent magical item (the spell must be focused on it). See the description (2e PH it is page 148 for mages or 210 for priests; in 1e PH check out page 47). It can neutralize multiple potions, spells, and spell-like effects, anything in the area of effect.

    That said, thoughts?

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:15 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Dispel Magic affects either a 30 foot cube, affecting spells or spell-like effects in that area, OR a single, permanent magical item (the spell must be focused on it). See the description (2e PH it is page 148 for mages or 210 for priests; in 1e PH check out page 47). It can neutralize multiple potions, spells, and spell-like effects, anything in the area of effect.

    That said, thoughts?

    -Lanthorn


    Okay. I appologize for answering without first doing the proper research. Embarassed

    Now, I have no access to any rules edition but 3rd, so I can only answer from that edition. It seems that you are correct, Lanthorn. The spell can be targeted as an area effect, but it will only dispel one spell per creature in the area of effect. Alternatively, you may target one specific creature with the Dispel Magic and it will affect all spells in effect on that one creature.

    Hope that is more helpful. Razz

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:21 pm  

    Don't sweat not looking up the details. On more than one occasion, someone reminds me. So, consider yourself in good (?) company. Wink

    I guess what I wonder is if the Dispel Magic could affect spells, spell-like effects, and potions located in the Border Ethereal AS WELL as nullifying the Etherealness spell itself. OR, does the Dispel Magic merely remove characters from the other plane, period, and NOT affect other effects?

    Thoughts on this, friends?

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:24 pm  

    Been checking.

    Pathfinder says it's target specific. One spell countered.

    The 2e PHB says a 30ft cube.

    The 3.5 PHB says: "One spellcaster, creature, or object, or 20ft radius burst." I'm taking this to mean a 20ft radius out from the caster.

    So, it depends on which Rules Edition you're using. Wink

    In 2e Dispel Magic removes spells and spell-like effect, it disrupts the casting of spells and it destroy magic potions.

    In 3.5e, each creature in the area loses one spell effect. Start with their most powerful spell protection and work your way down. When they fail their Save, that's the spell protection that's removed. Any magic items they have are not affected.
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    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:16 pm  

    Dark Mystic,

    I am an unabashed 2e player/DM who cobbles 1e stuff too. Keeping that in mind...

    ...a character is in the Border Ethereal with various spell effects running. A rival caster successfully Dispels his (and his companions') "etherealness" since they are in the area of effect (30 foot cube). Does the Dispel Magic only work to bring them back to the Prime Material, or does it also have the ability to dispel their spell effects (such as various pre-cast Protections),too?

    That is my overarching question.

    I am perusing all manner of books on this issue (1e PH and DMG, 2e PH and DMG, Unearthed Arcana, Manual of the Planes, and Wizard's Handbook), all without a clear indication which way to rule this effect!

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:31 pm  

    According to the 2e PHB, it will only dispell one spell per person.

    If they are all "within" the Border Ethereal spell, than all it would do is bring them all back to the Prime Material and nothing else.

    It only affects one "spell" or spell-like effect per character. So if it "removed" their stoneskin, for example, then they would remain upon the Ethereal Plane.

    Your character obviously wants them all back on the P.M., so that's all that happens. Their other spell protections remain in place.
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    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:51 pm  

    Hmmmm...not sure that I see in the description that it affects only one effect per person in the area of effect, but rather ALL effects within the area are subject to dispellation (both mage and priest variants mention that EACH effect or potion in the area is subject to this spell).

    Correct me if I am wrong. I am looking but don't see it!

    -Lanthorn, Sight Impaired?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:48 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Hmmmm...not sure that I see in the description that it affects only one effect per person in the area of effect, but rather ALL effects within the area are subject to dispellation (both mage and priest variants mention that EACH effect or potion in the area is subject to this spell).

    Correct me if I am wrong. I am looking but don't see it!

    -Lanthorn, Sight Impaired?


    If all else fails, and you prefer, you ARE the DM, the DM is god, so, its your game, your ruling in the end. Research it to the best of your abilities, and, if you think its still ambiguous, rule the way YOU see it.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:26 am  

    [quote="Lanthorn"]ALL effects within the area are subject to dispellation (both mage and priest variants mention that EACH effect or potion in the area is subject to this spell).[/quote]

    Well, it's like Tigger said, it's your call.

    We have been opined and you have been advised. You have read the books. Since you are apparently wanting someone to tell you what to do, here it is:

    Strip away all their protections, kill them all off and start a new game. What's the problem? Confused
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:26 am  

    Well....i'm at work at the moment and don't hace access to the books; but I belive I've always played that Dispel Magic impacts all "magics" within it's Area of Effect....so in this case; I'd say...if the "save" is failed; then the PCs are brought out of the Ethereal and all "buffs" go bye-bye.

    Just my two cents though!

    As others have mentioned....at the end of the day; YOU are the arbiter of the rules; so whatever you rule goes....however; unless you want to find yourself by yourself; just make sure you're consistent with the rulings! :)
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:44 am  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    unless you want to find yourself by yourself


    Not going to happen! Razz

    I'll always have . . . the voices. Evil Grin

    Mwahahahahahahaha!
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:49 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    maxvale76 wrote:
    unless you want to find yourself by yourself


    Not going to happen! Razz

    I'll always have . . . the voices. Evil Grin

    Mwahahahahahahaha!


    Shocked Voices? I just wish the blacko...... Hey, what am I doi..... Hmmmm, Why am I responding to this post?.... We're responding, you others just aren't aware like....I AM!!!!! Evil Grin
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    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:33 pm  

    Yep! Tigger is one of the "voices" I was talking about. Wink
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    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:02 pm  

    Sorry if I am driving you all insane like a slaad...just wanted to know if someone knew conclusively, one way or the other, an answer to my query. All opinions and suggestions duly noted. Thanks for the input.

    -Lanthorn, Out
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:17 pm  

    Now Lanthorn, don't go getting upset.

    We've given you the answer. Remember Pirates of the Caribbean? "The Code is more like guidelines." Wink

    Same here. The definitive answer is that YOU are Ao. You are the "Over-god" of your Greyhawk.

    Whatever you want to happen is what happens. I think the problem is that one of your players is a "Rules Lawyer." We've offered advise about those in other forums -- throw them out!

    It's your game, you call the shots, not the "Rule Book" and certainly not the "Rules Lawyer." Razz

    The 2e PHB (your edition) says it dispels everything in a 20ft radius. So they are brought back from the Ethereal Plane to the Prime Material Plane and they are brought back minus any protective spells, such as Mage Armor or Stoneskin.

    Magical items -- shields, swords, et al -- are unaffected.

    And that's it. Happy

    So, your PCs are now standing there, facing their enemies -- minus any magical protections. Shocked

    Roll for initiative! Evil Grin
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    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:28 pm  

    Mystic et al, I wasn't upset. Just didn't wanna upset you with my probing is all (the scientist in me seeks a deeper understanding). As for being the "God," that was my philosophy earlier in my DMing career, but it has since shifted to a more democratic perspective, particularly with experienced players whom I respect. I know I never liked the 'heavy handed' approach, so I try to practice what I preach and ask for the input of said people. I wouldn't exactly say that my player is a ...rules lawyer (had one of those YEARS ago)...but a semi-hybrid of a black-and-white rules 'follower' mixed with a dash of 'common sense.' However, to be sure, we go back and forth on all manner of ideas, so I turn to you all for added perspective. I value the input from this forum, considering you all 'colleagues', as I enjoy the discourse we generate, even if, at best, we must settle to 'agree to disagree.'

    thanks again,

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:51 pm  

    I understand, but remember this truth:

    There can only be and will only ever be . . . One captain of the ship.

    Captain Picard could ask any opinion that he liked, in the end, it was his call. Always will be . . . DM. Wink
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:10 pm  

    Lanthorn,

    My dear friend we discussed this yesterday. However, I will post my reply here for all to see. So considering that the spell is anchored on the Prime and the characters are on the border material. If Dispel is cast on the Prime it effects anything in the radius of the spell. While the characters are on the border ethereal.

    Since the characters are out of range at the time of the casting only the Etherealness spell would be affected. The players are out of range of the dispel when it was cast. Therefore they are forced back to the prime with any of their other protections intact.

    I hope this helps.

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:09 am  

    Argon wrote:
    Since the characters are out of range at the time of the casting only the Etherealness spell would be affected. The players are out of range of the dispel when it was cast. Therefore they are forced back to the prime with any of their other protections intact.


    Sounds good to me! Go for it! Happy
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:14 am  

    Lanthorn: As was said in the movie The Sand Lot- "You're killing me Smalls!" Laughing

    This is a 2E rules question(which you do not make clear in the thread's title or in the first post, but later on), so should go in one of that forum. It does reference a 1E product though, but I had to check even that just to be sure, as there is more than one version of the Manual of the Planes- the original 1E version HERE, the 3E version HERE, and a 4E version HERE.

    So, you can see why I encourage everyone be specific in their post titles/initial posts, such that everyone understands precisely what is being discussed. Wink Moving the thread now.

    EDIT: Disregard this section. It *IS* a planar issue. Spells do *NOT* affect things on other planes unless it states somewhere that they do, and only will do so in the way that is stated wrote:

    On to your question then.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Question: Does the Dispel Magic counter the spell effects placed on them, too?


    This is a spell issue, not a planar issue. The spell description says:

    "First, it(dispel magic) removes spells and spell-like effects(including device effects and innate abilities) from creatures or objects. Second, it disrupts the casting or use of these in the area of effect at the instant the dispel is cast. Third, it destroys magical potions (which are treated as 12th level for purposes of this spell).

    Each effect or potion in the spell’s area is checked to determine if it is dispelled."


    Emphasis mine, but even still, they sort of beat you over the head with clarity, don't they. Laughing So, if there are 50 spells in effect, 3 spell casters are casting spells, and everyone is carrying a total of 80 potions on them, then yes, you will be rolling to dispel 133 things. Tell your players to go get a snack, and then run through it all. Laughing

    Also, note that the supplemental books don't list all of the rules for things, mostly just exceptions for rules that are already covered in the core books. When something works completely differently, it will be spelled out very blatantly. This brings us the 1E Manual of the Planes, the author of which was not Nostradamus, being unable to predict what other writers would write for the 2E rules system, let alone that they would write up an etherealness spell for it. So far as I know, at the time of the writing of the Manual of the Planes, there was no etherealness spell, so the ethereal creatures the book refers to as being affected by a dispel magic spell are those creatures that are naturally able to become ethereal in some way. The Manual of the Planes reference is only pertinent to ethereal capability that is not gained due to a spell. As an etherealness spell creates a *spell effect*, it is subject to dispel magic just like any other spell effect is anyways, and no Manual of the Planes reference is even required in this instance.


    As to what Argon just answered, if the affected characters are out of range of the dispel magic spell, then the etherealness spell, or any other spell, would not be affected at all(note that effectively being on another plane does not make the characters out of range; the range is solely dependent upon their position in the Border Ethereal relative to the Primer Material Plane). If the characters are in range, then the etherealness spell effect will be subject to being dispelled, but nothing else will unless the dispel magic spell is cast just before the etherealness spell is cast.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:01 pm  

    Cebrion, my apologies (nice movie reference). I was confident you'd move the thread as needed. I wasn't sure if it belonged in the 2e forum or not. Nevertheless, sorry for the frustration. I'll endeavor to clarify my future posts, as I am sure to have many more to come!

    As for the description of the Dispel, you quoted exactly what my understanding of the spell entails (truly, I referenced it...promise!). My initial interpretation and action was to roll for each and every effect, as you noted in your example. However, rather recently, I began to reflect on that when, in a campaign, I had a situation where a caster was nullifying high lvl effects, but NOT low-lvl ones (for instance, dispelling the spell effect of a 10th lvl caster, but not able to remove a 3rd lvl effect). To me, that seemed illogical (again, the Vulcan scientist in me), so I started rolling only once for any and all effects within the area of effect. That way, it was consistent, and if you rolled high enough to, say, dispel an 11th lvl caster, anything below that likewise vanished, too.

    But, I digress...

    You make a good point that "Manual of the Planes" (initially a 1st edition product, right?) couldn't possibly predict 2e spells and the like (as noted, the priest spell, Etherealness, is from "Spells and Magic"). My initial ruling was that if the Dispel Magic could neutralize the magic necessary to place a person in the Border Ethereal, than it could likewise potentially affect other magical effects, as you described.

    However, I will admit that I understand Argon's perspective/logic (and my main player's, too) that the Dispel Magic might only be severing the 'link' or whatever magic that keeps that person in the Border Ethereal, and cannot penetrate deeply enough to affect other spells effects, even though there is an overlap between the two planes with respect to space.

    In reading as much as I could from "Manual of the Planes" I note that Dispel can bring someone back to the Prime Material, but it mentions nothing (either way, actually) about affecting, or not affecting, in place spells on those characters. Even perusing the descriptions of spell effects on the Ethereal really doesn't help, as that material is discussing spells cast in the Ethereal, and not the Prime against the Border...though if memory serves me, there is mention that spells and other 'attacks' have no impact cross-planar (Prime to Ethereal, and vice versa).

    So, I guess I am back to square one, and must take a stand one way or the other.

    Nevertheless, I do appreciate your input and the thoroughness of your answer, as always. You are nothing if not exacting! Smile

    And thanks for correcting my posting oversight...again. Embarassed

    til next time!

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:46 am  

    This is a pretty good question, so I dug into it a bit more, and made sure I was on task as to what the original post was asking about.
    Lanthorn wrote:
    However, rather recently, I began to reflect on that when, in a campaign, I had a situation where a caster was nullifying high lvl effects, but NOT low-lvl ones (for instance, dispelling the spell effect of a 10th lvl caster, but not able to remove a 3rd lvl effect). To me, that seemed illogical (again, the Vulcan scientist in me), so I started rolling only once for any and all effects within the area of effect. That way, it was consistent, and if you rolled high enough to, say, dispel an 11th lvl caster, anything below that likewise vanished, too.

    Think of it this way. Magic is not a finite, defined thing. There are variables involved. Sometimes a fireball will burn hot, and sometimes it will just cause a really bad sunburn. Similarly, sometimes a dispel magic spell will annihilate a higher level effect while leaving a lesser one intact. there is no set "cause and effect" across the board for magic. With some things there are; with others not. The only time it is such a way in terms of a dispel magic spell is when the caster is dispelling their own magic, in which case the magic is automatically dispelled. When applied to unknown magical forces, a dispel magic spell is more...mercurial.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    You make a good point that "Manual of the Planes" (initially a 1st edition product, right?) couldn't possibly predict 2e spells and the like (as noted, the priest spell, Etherealness, is from "Spells and Magic"). My initial ruling was that if the Dispel Magic could neutralize the magic necessary to place a person in the Border Ethereal, than it could likewise potentially affect other magical effects, as you described.


    Well, I also neglected to mention another way of getting to the Boarder Ethereal, and it has nothing to do with creatures that can become ethereal, by natural ability or by spell. It has to do with what the Manual of the Planes is all about- planar travel. One can travel through the various planes and arrive at the border ethereal all on their own, such that they could then be affected by a dispel magic spell and wrenched into the Prime Material Plane. So, there are three ways a creature can get there- a natural ability, planar travel, a spell or other magical effect.

    But, I've looked into things a bit further. Here is the main question:

    Did the enemy cast dispel magic before the PC's have become ethereal, or after?

    This is important, as the you state that the spell description says that it takes a further full round for the PC's to become ethereal after the spell is cast, meaning that the planar transition will happen over the course of the entirety of the following round. Regardless of initiative rolls, the enemy caster is going to get off their dispel magic spell before the very end of the following round, if they had cast it then. This means that the enemy caster's dispel magic spell will not only potentially affect the etherealness spell, but also every single other spell effect and potion on the PC's, as they have not transitioned to the Border Ethereal yet.

    If the PC's have transitioned to the Border Ethereal before the enemy caster has cast dispel magic, then the dispel magic spell, which after further reading I find it does not state anywhere that dispel magic(nor most effects) fully penetrates into other planes, should only serve to wrench them back from the Border Ethereal to the Prime Material plane, just as the Manual of the Planes says it does.

    The 2E Planescape book "A Guide to the Ethereal Plane" similarly states that dispel magic effects cause non-native ethereal creatures from the Prime Material Pane to fall back into the Prime Material Plane when affected by such an effect, including when creatures merely pass through areas with dispel magic effects on them, and also magical "null" areas too. I think that seals it as much as is possible. So, it really depends on exactly when the dispel magic spell was cast on the PCs.

    EDIT: I hunted down the etherealness spell, and nowhere does it state that it takes full round to transition from the Prime to the Ethereal after the spell is cast. The spell has Casting Time: 1, meaning it goes off right then and there. Ergo, the dispel magic effect would only wrench the PC's back to the Prime, not anything else, unless the dispel magic was cast just prior to the etherealness spell, in which case it would have a chance to not only dispel the etherealness spell, but every other magical effect/potion on the PCs at that time.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:12 am  

    Cebrion, you address many good, key points (once again). Wink

    Your take that magic is 'mercurial' was something not missed on by my main player; on that account you and he are of like mind. I, however, am a man who enjoys continuity, the reason for our (his and mine) joint, often opposing, debates. It is true that magical effects don't have consistency (esp. with regard to rolling damage)...the reason why I applied some 'house rules' to streamline that (maybe that will be my next post!).

    At any rate, in perusing the spell description of Dispel Magic, it does state that any and all magical effects within the area of effect should be taken into account:

    "Each effect or potion in the spell's area is checked to determine if it is dispelled. The caster can always dispel his own magic..."

    However, as I read that, I don't see (in black and white, at least, but you know how I am one to 'read between the lines') where you must roll independently for each separate effect. Hence, my stance why I make one blanket roll for all effects. Besides making the dispellation of effects uniform (if you successfully dispel a 5th lvl effect, then you subsquently dispel those of lvls 1-4, as well, but not those of 6+), it has the nice side effect of the DM not having to make dozens upon dozens of rolls, too (if numerous spell effects or potions are present in the area of effect). Just my take and perspective, and it's worked for me so far.

    (sidenote: does this description mean that a caster automatically Dispels his/her own effects, OR has the chance, OR the option???)

    Now, on to your other (good) point about the Etherealness spell, and how the Manual of the Planes says it takes a full round to enter the Border Ethereal, or to be removed from it to the Prime. The casting time of the spell is 1, meaning the spell itself takes but a single segment to cast, but I still am inclined to think that it takes a full round for the "etherealizing" person(s) to fully enter that Plane. Here's my rationale: that tome was written at the time of PH (1e) when Plane Shifting was the only way, by spell, to enter. It has a casting time of 8. According to Manual, it takes a full round to enter or to exit. I would think that the 3rd lvl spell, Etherealness, would have the same ruling, too. The main difference between those two spells (besides power lvl, number of characters affected, duration, and component) is the casting time, but not the time it takes to enter/exit the Border Ethereal. Otherwise, I don't understand why the Manual of the Planes states clearly that it takes a full round to enter/exit the Border Ethereal if the Plane Shift spell has a casting time of 8.

    Furthermore, does this mean that if the Dispel Magic is successful, does the effect IMMEDIATELY remove them back to the Prime, or does that, too, take a full round? So many questions!!! aaahhhh....

    But, you make the mention about when the Dispel is cast. If it takes a full round to enter/exit the BE, in what Plane are you considered to be midway? Perhaps a bit of both? More on the plane upon which you are first casting the spell?

    To answer your inquiry, the spell-caster in question cast the Dispel Magic as the party was entering the Border Ethereal, or shortly afterwards. I have to recollect the initiative rolls. If you rule that it take but a single segment to enter, the Dispel Magic in question is cast well afterwards. If not, I think the Dispel takes effect at the end of the transition round, or shortly thereafter.

    Thanks again, Cebrion, for your diligence in cross-referencing so many tomes. I feel like an academician mage...roll my proficiency skill at "Research". Wink Not sure how high it is, though! You, however, are quickly going to replace Argon as my 'resident Sage' at this rate! Perhaps he is thankful for this... Happy

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:27 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    At any rate, in perusing the spell description of Dispel Magic, it does state that any and all magical effects within the area of effect should be taken into account:

    "Each effect or potion in the spell's area is checked to determine if it is dispelled. The caster can always dispel his own magic..."

    However, as I read that, I don't see (in black and white, at least, but you know how I am one to 'read between the lines') where you must roll independently for each separate effect. Hence, my stance why I make one blanket roll for all effects. Besides making the dispellation of effects uniform (if you successfully dispel a 5th lvl effect, then you subsequently dispel those of lvls 1-4, as well, but not those of 6+), it has the nice side effect of the DM not having to make dozens upon dozens of rolls, too (if numerous spell effects or potions are present in the area of effect). Just my take and perspective, and it's worked for me so far.

    So far as rolling goes, the choice is really yours. Though I bet there is a Sage Advice on this too that I don't remember all that well, I prefer to think of it similar to items saving throws. You don't roll once and then compare that roll to every object to to see what items survive. You roll for every single item, one at a time; same for dispel magic and spells. Roll for every spell/potion. It goes by quickly enough, as there are seldom dozens and dozen of spells in effect at one time(though there maybe quite few potions in the area; note that potions in bags of holding and similar things are safe, as they are in a dimensional space). So, have fun rolling your funny-shaped dice a lot, and enjoy the anticipation/dread of the players. Or not. I am pretty sure we have done it both ways in the past, though I am not sure if that was different from 1E to 2E, or different within the same game edition(the latter isn't very likely, as we like consistency in doing things).

    Lanthorn wrote:
    (sidenote: does this description mean that a caster automatically Dispels his/her own effects, OR has the chance, OR the option???)

    There is only one option. The caster can choose what spells of their own that they *want* to automatically dispel, but as dispel magic is not discriminate as to what it affects in the area, the caster has to roll even for his own spells in the area of effect that they do want to remain in play. Yes, dispel magic potentially will kill every single spell effect in the area of effect, including the caster's, whether the caster wants it to or not.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Now, on to your other (good) point about the Etherealness spell, and how the Manual of the Planes says it takes a full round to enter the Border Ethereal, or to be removed from it to the Prime.

    The casting time of the spell is 1, meaning the spell itself takes but a single segment to cast, but I still am inclined to think that it takes a full round for the "etherealizing" person(s) to fully enter that Plane. Here's my rationale: that tome was written at the time of PH (1e) when Plane Shifting was the only way, by spell, to enter. It has a casting time of 8. According to Manual, it takes a full round to enter or to exit. I would think that the 3rd lvl spell, Etherealness, would have the same ruling, too. The main difference between those two spells (besides power lvl, number of characters affected, duration, and component) is the casting time, but not the time it takes to enter/exit the Border Ethereal. Otherwise, I don't understand why the Manual of the Planes states clearly that it takes a full round to enter/exit the Border Ethereal if the Plane Shift spell has a casting time of 8.

    Furthermore, does this mean that if the Dispel Magic is successful, does the effect IMMEDIATELY remove them back to the Prime, or does that, too, take a full round? So many questions!!! aaahhhh....

    The Manual of the Planes actually addresses this by using the Phase spider example in that section, and the Planscape book mentions the 1 round transition too(it just doesn't use the phase spider example). By the phase spider example, transitioning moves them back immediately, such that they can be attacked/fully affected by anything that same round, so long as it happens after the dispel magic spell is cast. Similar, the transitioning PCs could also attack things on the Prime during the round that the dispel magic is cast, so long as they do so after the spell affected them. If they try and do anything beforehand, then it must be an attack/effect that extends into the Border Ethereal.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    But, you make the mention about when the Dispel is cast. If it takes a full round to enter/exit the BE, in what Plane are you considered to be midway? Perhaps a bit of both? More on the plane upon which you are first casting the spell?

    To answer your inquiry, the spell-caster in question cast the Dispel Magic as the party was entering the Border Ethereal, or shortly afterwards. I have to recollect the initiative rolls. If you rule that it take but a single segment to enter, the Dispel Magic in question is cast well afterwards. If not, I think the Dispel takes effect at the end of the transition round, or shortly thereafter.

    The phase spider example in the Manual of the Planes shows that the phase spider not only transitions in one round, but attacks in that same round, and then, in the following round(in 1E; in 2E they phase in-attack-phase out too if they wind Initiative by 4 or more), may become ethereal again(and not be attacked, except by effects that extend into the Ethereal, if it has initiative and can activate its etherealness ability before being attacked). The example tells us that the the plane being transitioned to is the plane that can be affected during the round of transition: transition + attack, in one round, in the plane transitioned to. Accordingly, if a dispel magic spell is cast on a target that has already activated its etherealness(by whatever means) and is fading into the Ethereal, they are considered to be in the Ethereal so far as attacks/effects are concerned, and so they will only be wrenched back to the Prime and not have all of their magical effects be subject to the dispel magic spell. It will come down to Initiative and what happens first(or simultaneously)- the phasing in, or the casting of the spell.

    Took a while to get to the full development of what will happen, as the references are scattered and not really explained anywhere, but everywhere. Laughing
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:45 pm  

    Sage-Master Cebrion (yes, an honorific upgrade!),

    Many thanks for taking the time to research and offer your insights on all my inquiries. You are gracious to answer my questions point-by-point. Now I have some food for thought tomorrow night when we pick up where we left off. Happy I need to alter a few things first, some of them in favor of the party, some of them not. Oh, well, you can't have it all, right? Wink Maybe, just maybe, some of the characters will survive the impending Fireball, Slow, and particularly nasty Scourge spells to follow in the wake of the (successful) Dispel. Evil Grin

    I look forward to your input on my future posts, and will endeavor to place them correctly. Apologies in advance if I err.

    much appreciation,

    -Lanthorn the Ethereal-wiser
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