Ragr, you are correct that healing spells (including the penultimate spell, Heal) work ONLY on the living.
Raise Dead must be powerful enough to take into account such factors as decay and rot wherein soft tissues disintegrate or the spell is a waste. The very minimum level to cast such a spell is 9th lvl, and thus a 9 day death period for that caster. In 9 days, at room temperature and humidity, a body will bloat and begin to putrify completely to a disgusting mess of goo. And this is just the beginning. At higher levels, priests can raise bodies that have been dead for longer periods of time and are thus at very advanced stages of decay. This causes me to wonder if incinerated bodies are not beyond the reach of this spell.
It's about the spell description, in 2e at least, stating that the "whole" of the body must be present for the spell to work. Following that to the letter I'd still rule an incinerated body could not be returned and a Resurrection would be required.
Of course, you could rule differently in your game as long as you kept it consistent from that point onwards.
For me, the specificity of the wording is a key pointer.
I agree with Ragr that a Raise Dead spell should not be capable of working on a body burned to the point that it is nearly ash.
Here is what I would suggest, just for fun.
Allow your player to attempt a Raise Dead on the body. Have the body return to life, but the spell isn't powerful enough to fully heal it. Much of the flesh is healed (as per your argument that bloated, decayed bodies may be safely returned to life), but it doesn't even have one hit point. Instead, it returns to life at -8 hit points and in unbelievable pain as much of the internal organs are still burned and incompletely healed. The reviving cleric must immediately cast Heal (or many lesser curative spells) in order to bring the PC up to full hit points or the body will die again in two rounds (-10 hp).
Remember, the Raise Dead spell only returns a body to life with a single hit point. That implies that the spell only heals a bloated, decayed body to the bare minimum necessary to sustain life. I think this would be an appropriate result for casting the spell on a body damaged so much more.
Also, if I recall correctly, a cleric casting Raise Dead must rest for a day, doing nothing else, after casting the spell. That means that a second cleric would need to be on hand to cast the curative spell(s) on the raised PC - making for even more fun consequences, if the player hadn't considered that possibility.
Allow your player to attempt a Raise Dead on the body. Have the body return to life, but the spell isn't powerful enough to fully heal it. Much of the flesh is healed (as per your argument that bloated, decayed bodies may be safely returned to life), but it doesn't even have one hit point. Instead, it returns to life at -8 hit points and in unbelievable pain as much of the internal organs are still burned and incompletely healed. The reviving cleric must immediately cast Heal (or many lesser curative spells) in order to bring the PC up to full hit points or the body will die again in two rounds (-10 hp).
Instead of creating a new thread, adding to this one since my question pertains to the use of Raise Dead, Regeneration, and Heal.
If a person is slain by fire (toasted to a cinder), is a Raise Dead sufficient to restore them completely? The whole body (as much as is left) is present, after all, even though the soft tissues are burnt to nothingness. I am on the fence requiring a Resurrection spell to be used, though I can see that since the organs are reduced to crispy ash that perhaps the Raise Dead spell's effectiveness could be reduced (lowered chance of success), AND perhaps permanent scarring of the individual may result.
The whole body is in no way present. A whole body is one with its parts there, not burned to ashes. Raise dead effectively restores life/function to the body and its parts. If something vital is not present, due to being cut out, burned away, disintegrated, etc., the raise dead spell fails. Ressurection is required in this case.
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Regeneration, after all, does NOT work on wounds caused by acid or fire, so that is of no assistance. What about the Heal spell? Would that nullify the effects and scarring caused by death by fire or acid?
No. Heal spells heal areas. As they do not restore missing material, I prefer that they leave scars. I view healing spells as a means of sped up healing, not as treating wounds as if they never existed. Scars are a result of the body healing itself after all. When healed with healing spells, clean cuts leave barely noticeable scars, while wounds that rip/rend flesh, such as those made by teeth and claws, do leave more noticeable scars even if healing spells are used. So do burns from acid/fire. Healing spells do not replace/regrow material, just seal and heal a wound, and so if a chunk of flesh is missing/burned away, there will surely be a scar, and perhaps a lack of function if the missing chunk was in an area that affects functionality. If some critter took a bite out of a character's upper arm like it was a chicken leg, such that the bicep was pretty much gone (likely the result of some in house critical hit system that crippled the arm), a dm could say that basic healing spells would not restore it. A heal spell will fix it though, as it will heal anything short of replacing a fully missing body part. Because of its power, you might have a heal spell leave no scar(s) at all.
Note that there is a big difference between how fire/acid damage is affected by an ongoing regeneration effect and the regenerate spell. For example...
Let's say that your dm uses a critical hit system in their campaign (because they are cool like that ), and some priest of Pyremius ends up chopping off your wizard's forearm with a flame blade. Your wizard's severed forearm conveniently fell into a magma pool, and was consumed. Shucks! Your wizard was wearing a ring of regeneration though, but the damage is from fire so the ongoing regeneration effect will not repair the damage. Hey, at least the wound is cauterized! Your wizard survives, and the arm stump eventually heals (or is healed by a healing spell). There is some bad scarring, as healing spells don't replace material, in this case skin (ergo lots of scarring), but at least he lives. The event has totally ruined the usefulness of his bracers of defense AC: 2, and he also has to deal with the conundrum of which of his two magic rings to wear most of the time. But he carries on, and gets back to adventuring. Eventually your wizard does some deed that leaves a high level priest indebted to him, so the wizard asks for a boon- a regeneration spell. This spell will regrow the missing limb in 2d4 turns (assuming the system shock survival roll is successful). Time to unpack those moth-balled bracers of defense, and slip on that second magic ring! Yay!
Also, a dead creature horribly burned by fire cannot be raised and then hit with a regenerate spell to regrow missing vital soft tissues, as those missing bits need to be present for the raise dead spell to work in the first place, and the regenerate spell cannot be used to first regrow that stuff because it only works on living things.
So, quit trying to finagle things ya rules fudger! _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
A person is killed by decapitation. The head is still present and could be placed on the corpse. Would a Raise Dead be sufficient to mend the body and restore life? If not, what means could be employed to make it thus, if any?
"Note that the body of the person must be
whole, or otherwise missii parts are still
missing when the person is brought back to
life.
Given that Regenerate is a 7th level spell to restore body parts to a living creature it would follow that only Resurrection could do the same, and bring someone back at the same time. The conditions in the wording of Raise Dead are there to maintain its status as a 5th level spell usable by a 9th level caster. You want the epic abilities, you have to be epic level.
Yeah, kinda thought it might not...and as Regenerate does not work on a corpse...
FYI: in my campaigns I've increased Raise Dead to a 6th lvl Necromantic spell and made Regenerate a 5th lvl spell for the reason that it made NO sense to me (and my primary player/DM) that restoring missing parts was "harder" than restoring life force to a dead body.
Given that, maybe a house rule alteration would permit the aforementioned situation...
Nope. Doesn't work. If any body part necessary to life is missing, or is unattached, the raise dead spells fails. There could very well be some sort of Frankenstein's Monster-ish Ravenloft spell which allows dead flesh to be attached to other dead flesh, which might then be followed up by raise dead spell. Or somebody could always do the spell research on such an effect. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I still have the old Greytalk post by Gregory Bernbath, High Level Mages and Priests of Greyhawk. It considers 14th level "High Level." Since that's what's needed for Ressurrection spell, I thought I'd bring this up. Being that this was posted in 1998, it is all 2nd ed (at best). Anyway, anything later than '98 is NOT included here. First, here's the list.
Canon Hazen (veluna) 21st level priest of Rao
Anfaren Silverbrow (Lendore Isle) 20th level priest of Sehanine
Larissen (Darmen Lands, Aerdy) 19th level priest of Zilchus
Agath of Thrunch (principality of Ulek) 19th level priest of Celestian
Lerrek (lich of the Vesve Forest) 19th level priest of Erythnul
Jerome Kazinskaia (Greyhawk) 19th level priest of Rao
Herzog Grenell (North Province) 18th level priest of Hextor
Althea (Molag) 18th level priestess of Iuz
Halga (Vesve/Dorakaa) 18th level priestess of Iuz
? (Druid/Troll in Greyhawk RuinsZ626) Druid
Jakar Whitewing (Valley of the Mage) Druid
General Pyrannden (Rauxes) 17th level priest of Hextor
Eclavdra (Dorakaa or other) 17th level priestess of Lolth (or EEG)
Ravel Dasinder (Greyhawk) 16th level priest of Boccob
Rillikandren (Rauxes) 16th level priest of Boccob
Immonara (Adri Forest) 16th level druid of Obad-Hai
Taralene (Grandwood/Lone Heath) 16th level priest of Atroa
? (Lich of Pits of Azak-Zil) 16th level
Arafeld (Nyrond) 16th level priest of Heironeous
Xargun, Caliph of Ekbir (Ekbir) 16th level priest of Istus?
Diraq malcinex (?) 16th level priest of Vecna
Garaeth Heldenster (Furyondy) 15th level priest of Heironeous
Calandryen (Vesve Forest) 15th level priest of Labelas Enorath
Durinken (Nyrond) 15th level priest of Rao
Censor Spidasa (Rauxes) 15th level priest of Hextor
Theocrat Ogon Tillit (Theocracy of the Pale) 15th level priest of Pholtus
Halldrem (North Province) 14th level priest of Hextor
Panshazek (Vesve Forest) 14th level priest of Iuz
Xenvelen (Vesve Forest) 14th level priest of Iuz
Grand Templar Ivanic Temzien (Nyrond) 14th level priest of Pholtus
Saran (Greyhawk) 14th level priest of Pelor
Reynard Yargrove (Dreadwood Forest) 14th level Druid of Obad-Hai
Charinida (Erelhei-Cinlu) 14th level priestess of Lolth
Vazirian the Hierarch (Horned Society) 14th level priest of Asmodeus
Keoghtom (?) 14th level priest of ?
Johanna (Almor ?) 14th level priestess of Boccob
So, the question I have from this list is, from WHOM can players even receive a Ressurrection spell? Some are evil, so forget it. Some are in very difficult places to reach. Some don't have access to the correct spheres. So, here's what I think:
That's a terribly small list! I don't have any clue how many 9th to 13th level priests there are, but they could do Raise Dead. I'd still think it's not a very large number. However, you could probably throw around a lot of priest of this level, at least in large towns/cities. Still, the access to high level healing MUST be pretty limited.
I have made my campaign one in which such healing is VERY HARD TO COME BY! I did this intentionally, to try and get my players to be smarter, knowing they can't just go to the nearest temple, spend some gold, and get raised. They are all either spoiled by the old Baldur's Gate style PC gaming, or from the 3rd ed and later ease of buying spells everywhere. However, I never really considered that the Greyhawk Canon pretty much backs up this decision. There just aren't very many people from whom one could get 7th level healing spells. Of those, these are almost all the equivalent of going to see the Pope. Well, except they really CAN raise the dead! Anyway, it should clearly NOT be an easy thing to get raised. I would expect all of these NPCs to have strict requirements met before doing it, and maybe quests or such as well.
Those are just some of "the greatest hits", not the leaders of all of the faiths. There are many, many more high level clerics than that in different centers of worship throughout the Flanaess. Granted, there aren't flocks of them roaming about, but that isn't "The List" by any means. Still, there being such a high level cleric on hand doesn't guarantee in any way that they will be amenable to casting a resurrection spell for anyone but a champion of their own faith. Even champions of the faith stay dead most of the time, just as most heroes do. The casting of such a spell is not going to be any sort of normal transaction either. It will be an event, with repercussions. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
That's true, it's not a complete list, by any means, and DMs can do what they want anyway. However, if we consider this list, which is the only Canon list available, as a starting point, we can't really go wrong. :)
One thing I note is these are all very high leaders, both religiously and politically. Seriously, getting help from them would be like pettioning the Pope or a Caliph or something like that. Not really the kind of thing you can do by just strolling into some temple and forking over 7K gp. Of course, that's what my players always want! LOL
Anyway, if we expand this list, I imagine other figures of like level should also be of like position. That said, how does all this apply to the 4 R's: Raise Dead, Restoration, Regeneration, and Resurrection?
Raise Dead could be easier to come by, requiring only a 9th level priest. Honestly, I look at that often like Miracle Max in the Princess Bride.
Miracle Max: "Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do."
Inigo Montoya: "What's that?"
Miracle Max: "Go through his clothes and look for loose change."
But seriously, I do actually see it this way. Raise Dead works because people are only "mostly" dead. Thus, it's not quite as big a deal, and because it's a 5th level spell, it doesn't exactly call upon the deity itself for assistance. I think in the old-school rulings, which still applied in 2nd ed I believe, this worked through some intermediary? Anyway, point is it's a lower level of miracle, and not as likely to require more than say a minor quest or payment.
Regeneration, Restoration, and Ressurection, all being 7th level, still remain extremely rare and difficult to gain. Not impossible, but as Cebrion said, "it will be an event, with repercussions."
In my campaigns, I made Raise Dead a 6th lvl Necromantic spell and Regenerate but a 5th lvl Healing spell. Not sure offhand what I did to Restoration but think that I lowered it to 5th lvl Necromantic (I need to check my books where I made the house rule adjustments), but kept Resurrection at 7th lvl Necromantic.
If you glance at PHB, Tome of Magic, and Spells & Magic books you will notice that these spells, as well as some like Cure Disease and Cure Blindness/Deafness keep getting moved between the Healing and Necromantic Spheres. I found it annoying, but with so many hands in the proverbial cookie jar of authorship, it is bound to happen.
I flipped through all those books (mentioned above) and started adding some to other Spheres as I saw fit. A few I changed their levels (not many, mind you) by comparing their effects to other, closely related spells and deciding where they "properly" fit.
Don't forget the Complete Guide to Necromancers, either, as there are some great spells in that book, too, though many are the domain of malevolent intent.
I will probably have to lower Restoration, since I have changed Level Drains to not be permanent. Either that or I just go back to normal Level Drains or make some other change.
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), and some priest of Pyremius ends up chopping off your wizard's forearm with a flame blade. Your wizard's severed forearm conveniently fell into a magma pool, and was consumed. Shucks! Your wizard was wearing a ring of regeneration though, but the damage is from fire so the ongoing regeneration effect will not repair the damage. Hey, at least the wound is cauterized! 