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    Canonfire :: View topic - Ghost Magic Jar attack
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    Ghost Magic Jar attack
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Tue May 01, 2012 2:42 pm  
    Ghost Magic Jar attack

    I need some input on this topic, as I am about to involve a Ghost in one of my games. As I have access to Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts some of my initial questions were answered. However, I need some interpretations on the use of the Ghost's dreaded Magic Jar attack form. Granted, it is not exactly the same as the wizard spell, as the undead monster does not require a receptacle device, but rather, horrifyingly, truly possesses the hapless victim. In so doing, the luckless person (failing a saving throw vs. Spells, at least in 1 and 2e editions) DIES as his/her spirit is removed from the body!

    Here are my two main queries:

    1) When using the possessed host body, what THACO, hp, and skills does the Ghost enjoy? I am under the impression that the Ghost cannot use any 'higher lvl' thinking skills, such as spell-casting, as the spirit of the host is now deceased. What about the fighting abilities? If the former is true, then the body is basically a walking automaton controlled by the Ghost. Would you use the stats of a zombie?

    2) If the Ghost is removed from the host body, can the spirit of the deceased be returned by powerful Necromantic magic such as a Raise Dead? I would think so...

    appreciatively,

    Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
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    Tue May 01, 2012 3:29 pm  

    Some ideas off the top of my head:

    1 ) Keep the possessed character flesh and blood. If a PC is possessed, pull a "Freaky Friday". The character now doesn't remember their former life (they are now dead or maybe a ghost themselves) and is essentially a new character in a new body. This presents some great role playing. As to your worry of not unbalancing the game, maybe only unlock the ghost's former abilities as the level goes up (like class abilities) equal to the hosts current level, keeping the physical (Str, Dex, Cha, Con, Com) of the host but the mental (Int, Wis) of the ghost along with the alignment change.

    2) I would assume the spirit of the host could be pulled back from it's respective outer plane of existence only through an artifact of great power or by powerful Necromantic arts.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue May 01, 2012 11:04 pm  

    The General Discussion forum is not a rules forum. The rules forums are very clearly delineated, and rules queries should be posted in the most appropriate rules forum.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Wed May 02, 2012 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Wed May 02, 2012 2:30 pm  

    mea culpa, Ceb. Embarassed

    anyone else on the topic at hand?

    -Lanthorn
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Fri May 04, 2012 7:26 am  
    Re: Ghost Magic Jar attack

    LENGTHY RESPONSE

    First..... the beatings will continue until morale improves hehe
    Next....

    Lanthorn wrote:
    I need some input on this topic, as I am about to involve a Ghost in one of my games.
    ......interpretations on the use of the Ghost's dreaded Magic Jar attack form. Granted, it is not exactly the same as the wizard spell, as the undead monster does not require a receptacle device, but rather, horrifyingly, truly possesses the hapless victim.

    Well I actually disagree here, the receptacle could be the body "possessed" in this case.
    As illustr8or pens:
    illustr8or wrote:
    1 ) Keep the possessed character flesh and blood. keeping the physical (Str, Dex, Cha, Con, Com) of the host but the mental (Int, Wis) of the ghost along with the alignment change.

    The Possessor is confined to the "abilities of the body they possess" ie if they possess a fish, they can breath water etc, but their "intellect" is intact, (Intelligence, Wisdom). So If the possessor was a powerful Fighter, he may recall "how to attack with ferocity", yet the body he now possesses (say a halfling thief) is physically incapable of mimicking those feats. This can be said to if the possessor was a powerful mage, and she possesses a fighter, though the body is Physically strong, its "muscle memory for casting" spells is not intune with the memories of the castor. I would rule for spell failure in this case. Until such time that the "body" becomes "retrained"

    Lanthorn wrote:

    Here are my two main queries:

    1) When using the possessed host body, what THACO, hp, and skills does the Ghost enjoy? I am under the impression that the Ghost cannot use any 'higher lvl' thinking skills, such as spell-casting, as the spirit of the host is now deceased. What about the fighting abilities? If the former is true, then the body is basically a walking automaton controlled by the Ghost. Would you use the stats of a zombie?

    So in summary, Depends on the body possessed.... The "host body" is the body to base it on... the "Ghost" THACO, etc resides with in and is subject to the "container" so to speak.
    As to spells, that I would rule depends to on the host... if the host was a mage and the ghost also, I defer to spell failure chance, but the knowledge does exist.... though a thought might also have to be given to if the spell to be cast was common knowledge to both the host and the ghost? hehe.
    Disagree on the "zombie" reference, the ghost surely has thought and purpose, motivations and intellect that the zombie does not.
    Lanthorn wrote:

    2) If the Ghost is removed from the host body, can the spirit of the deceased be returned by powerful Necromantic magic such as a Raise Dead? I would think so...

    I agree, and for a twist on this, one could even rule that the spirit of the host was simply "dominated" by the ghost and still resides if you wish to make it a bit less lethal. This might require a form of exorcism to be preformed in order to remove the ghost and leave the host "intact". just a thought.
    Or if feeling a bit twisted.... can have a magical item the host has on their person become the "repository for the host spirit" may be that's how magic items become conscious and intelligent?? hehe
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Tue May 08, 2012 3:23 pm  

    Thank you for you input, gents. DLG, your input is especially helpful, and helps me to solidify in my mind how I wish to role-play the 'possession' aspect of the ghost's Magic Jar attack.

    Query: Would a dwarf's inherent resistance to magical attacks (as defined by their Con score) come into play? I would think so.

    There is already a modifier of the wizard's Magic Jar spell that takes into account the difference between the attacker and host with respect to Int and Wis scores, and I think that also would apply, even for a ghost, too.

    -Lanthorn

    P.S. interesting sidenote about a ghost 'possessing' an item...hmmm...
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:19 am  

    I don't want to create a new post when I can use this one which I think will serve my needs. Another Ghost question:

    Upon viewing the Ghost, human(oids) must save vs. Spells or flee in Fear AND Age 10 yrs! Priests of 7th and higher lvl are immune (lucky them!), while non-priest characters above 8th lvl get a +2 bonus to save.

    Ok, Lanthorn question. Would you give victims bonuses against this supernatural effect based on high Wisdom scores (15 Wis+)? I am leaning towards "yes" on this one...

    I will consult my Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts on this in the meantime to see if it gives any added insight, but wanted to ask you all.

    thanks,

    Lanthorn, hoping he's a reached 7th lvl or higher...
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:39 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Ok, Lanthorn question. Would you give victims bonuses against this supernatural effect based on high Wisdom scores (15 Wis+)? I am leaning towards "yes" on this one...


    That certainly seems reasonable to me. Wisdom would be the appropriate stat to apply vs. fear.

    As an aside, 3.5e addresses this by having all Will saves adjusted by Wisdom bonuses or penalties, so this may hint that you are leaning in the right direction (or, at least, the same direction as the writers of 3.5e Wink ).

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:49 am  

    SX, thanks for your input.

    As an aside, I did peruse my Van Richten's Guide but it never stated one way or the other about bonuses against the Fear or Aging effects.

    I am now wondering if a Wisdom score bonus is more appropriate for the former (Fear effect) but maybe not the latter (aging)...

    Also, wondering if the victim of a Ghost rises to become a 'lesser' Ghost (in several days' time) or not. I need to review some older Undead threads as I think "we" discussed this previously. All I know is that, supposedly, a person killed by a Ghost, especially its dreaded Magic Jar attack, is "forever dead" in accordance to what is written. I gather that to mean that Raising OR Resurrection is fully IMPOSSIBLE. Shocked If so, EGAD!!!!

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:58 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    All I know is that, supposedly, a person killed by a Ghost, especially its dreaded Magic Jar attack, is "forever dead" in accordance to what is written. I gather that to mean that Raising OR Resurrection is fully IMPOSSIBLE. Shocked If so, EGAD!!!!


    Too bad you don't play 3.5e. True Resurrection would still work. Razz

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:12 pm  

    I have a Special Defense called "Immunity to Conversion." Cool

    If it is true that the person is 'forever dead,' I wonder where the soul goes. To its respective plane based on alignment? I have a very difficult time accepting that the soul could be 'destroyed' by the Ghost. To me, there is a "Conservation of Souls' much akin to the Conservation of Matter and Energy in science. Only the Gods can create...or destroy...a soul.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:35 pm  

    I agree with you, Lanthorn, and in my campaign no soul can truly be destroyed. However, official canon doesn't play that way. Black Razor and demi-liches, for example, can completely destroy a soul forever. I'm just throwing that out for something to compare the wording of the ghost's ability to.

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:30 pm  

    Excellent references, SX. Maybe the power of the Ghost, which drains life energy differently than other Undead by aging the victim, somehow permanently breaks the link between the soul and its 'shell.' That is the only reasonable explanation of which I can think...

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:34 am  

    So, the soul isn't destroyed, but the person cannot be raised because of that broken link. I like that.

    However, you may need a slightly more specific explanation for why Reincarnation doesn't work. Additionally, what about Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle, etc.?

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:51 am  

    As a DM, I'd have a hard time NOT allowing something as powerful as a Wish to prove effective in this case.

    Not sure about a Reincarnation. If the spirit force is permanently unbound to the body, I don't think that spell will be able to restore it. The body has aged beyond any useful, life-supporting function, and if I am correct, a Reincarnated form is not necessarily younger than the original form...or is it?

    I can think of no other magical 'loopholes' however. Magical potions to reverse aging do NOT work on a corpse.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:12 am  

    I understand that a magical reincarnation brings the soul back in a completely new body, but at a random age (unlike being reborn in a brand new body). Thus, being separated from the original body would not matter as the magic of the Reincarnation spell would have to separate the soul from the original body in order to work normally.

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:18 pm  

    This is likely a DM call based on personal choice but I'll toss it out anyhow.

    I've got a ghost that successfully possessed (Magic Jarred) a host body (luckless character!) and is now inhabiting said body. The ghost initially was confined to its original 'haunt' but I have ruled that so long as it remains within the corporeal trappings of the host body (corpse) that it can travel freely.

    However, should said possessed body (corpse) become 'slain' (destroyed by reaching 0 hp) the ghost will vacate, against its own will. I have two thoughts on the result:

    1) the ghost will immediately try to claim a new body via Magic Jar and if unsuccessful, may enage in melee

    2) the ghost immediately returns to its original haunting location until it can reclaim a new host body

    Thoughts? Again, I don't know of any hard and fast rules that state a particular outcome, but if there is one, please let me know! I will have to sift and sort through my Van Richten's Guide to Spirits once more, but offhand don't recall anything...

    thanks!

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:34 pm  

    Possessing a body seems a poor reason for a ghost to suddenly forget why they were tied to the a particular location. A ghost is basically a cursed soul tied to a location. Even if they possess a body and travel about for a bit, they will invariably return to the location that they are tied to. Freeing a ghost from that compulsion might involve rectifying whatever situation caused them to haunt the location in the first place. Then again, doing that might have the ghost passing on instead, as the reason for them to hang around in the first place will be gone. Depends on the situation though, and everything above depends on how you want to play the ghost.

    Regardless of the situation, ghosts always attempt to possess a host body because it is the only way that they can feel "alive" again. Beyond that, a mortal, living form can do things that a ghost cannot. Possessing a living body serves a greater purpose- allowing the ghost to rectify whatever situation that has caused it to become a ghost.

    For example, if a ghost was murdered, they might possess a living body for the sole purpose of hunting down their murderer. If the murderer is already long dead, it might instead choose to hunt down the murderer's children, other relatives, or end the family bloodline. That, of course, might require some traveling, but there is a reason to do so. A ghost won't go completely "freebird" just because they have possessed a body.

    As always, the story is the thing. Without the story, who cares about the ghost, and what does the ghost have to care about either.
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    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:52 pm  

    Cebrion, I have missed your wisdom! Happy Very good points, as usual. I will have to determine what to do with the ghost if the reason for its supernatural (unholy) condition is removed...in this case, it will be the death of its killer when the ghost was mortal decades before.

    Is it even possible for a ghost to be 'put to rest' if such an event does occur? Are they allowed to go to one of the goodly planes, if the ghost was initially a 'good' character before its eternal damnation occurred? Or do they go to one of the lower planes automatically instead? Can a ghost be redeemed? So many interesting nuances.

    thanks again,

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:54 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Is it even possible for a ghost to be 'put to rest' if such an event does occur? Are they allowed to go to one of the goodly planes, if the ghost was initially a 'good' character before its eternal damnation occurred? Or do they go to one of the lower planes automatically instead? Can a ghost be redeemed? So many interesting nuances.


    First, I'll second Cebrion's points as they seem quite valid to me as well.

    Next I'll answer the above question from my own campaign.

    A soul does not become an evil undead unless it becomes evil in life before its death. This may seem tricky with respect to undead like vampires, spectres, wraiths, etc. who automatically rise as undead upon being slain by such a creature, despite the victim's alignment. However, I have ruled that this alignment change is a magical compulsion, which does not condemn a soul. If the undead condition can be lifted, the magical compulsion that altered the soul's alignment is also lifted.

    Applying the above house rules, if a ghost is created by being slain by another ghost, the victim's soul is not affected when the condition is lifted (though victims returned to life may certainly feel the need to atone for any evil they commited while magically compelled). Such a soul that is simply released to its final reward is not accountable for any actions taken against its will: compelled, just as if a Charmed individual assists an evil 'friend' in their plans for world domination, etc.)

    If, however, the ghost is created of its own accord (eg. a thoroughly evil individual rises as a ghost upon the death of its material body or a here-to-fore goodly individual rejects all goodness and accepts evil in a furious attempt at vengence against those perpetrating its inevitable death), then the alignment change was made during life and remains upon the soul's release from undeath.

    SirXaris
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