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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk oracles?
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    Greyhawk oracles?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed May 16, 2012 7:22 am  
    Greyhawk oracles?

    Are there any oracles in Greyhawk? I need some canonical NPC with an ability to see into the future.

    I remember seeing a map where it had an oracle in the Jotens, but I can't find that map anymore. Maybe I was dreaming...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed May 16, 2012 11:12 am  

    If I recall correctly, and I don't have it in front of me at the moment, there is a gynosphinx in one of the adventures in Treasures of Greyhawk (named Gwendolyn if memory serves me correctly). The brief adventure is pretty much a set up to have her serve as a source of information for a party. Gynosphinxes have had access to legend lore in most editions of the game, though this isn't telling the future - which might be what your looking for.

    There was Reminkandren's "Book of Hours" that was referenced, in an offhand way, as a source of prophecy, in one of the early Dragon magazine articles of News from the Flanaess. (Again, don't hold me to the spelling of Reminkandren).

    There is also the notion of a history book from the future that describes the waning of magic. The book is dated 998 CY, by Pluffet Smedger the Elder, and could have a great many other things it describes as history, but which in fact is prophecy for characters in a typical 576-591+ timeline.

    I'm sure those with better memories than me can add to this.
    GreySage

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    Wed May 16, 2012 11:18 am  
    Re: Greyhawk oracles?

    Sutemi wrote:
    I need some canonical NPC with an ability to see into the future.


    No, you don't. Make one up. A priestess of Istus or a card-reading Rhennee wise woman might be appropriate. How about a mad, blinded beholder whose sightless eyes catch visions of times to come? How about a prophet who reads the future in the continuously regenerating entrails of a troll? Or a giant raven who croaks words of true prophecy if you feed it something it 's never eaten before? Any cleric with access to a commune spell would be able to glean something from the gods, particularly clerics of Lendor or Cyndor. Maybe a derro savant, his eyes haunted by things he saw after escaping from illithids who surgically altered his brain. "The surgeries were performed without anything to dull the pain, but that wasn't the terrible part. The terrible part was what I could see after the surgeries, after they opened my third eye and let things I could never have imagined before pour in..." How about a peasant girl touched by the Fair Folk, whose obscure, riddling rhymes never fail to come true, even if they come true in the least expected way? Maybe an ancient, prehuman cult built a stone monolith with the complete history of the world, from its creation to its destruction, encoded on it in pictographs no one today can completely decipher. Maybe a gold dragon dreams of the future from deep in its lair in the bottom of a mountain where it hasn't emerged for a thousand years. Maybe a homeless crone in Greyhawk's Old City is known among the local beggars to have occasional visions due to a drop of angel's blood in her veins, and cultists of Nerull believe they can make her to see more vivid sights if they force her to drink the blood of a freshly slain deva. Or a stone golem could have been sent back in time to prevent a terrible tragedy, or to cause one.

    Mordenkainen is said to have had visions of the destiny of the Blood War, and Drawmij is said to be dabbling in chronomancy. Heward lives in a temporal nexus, so he may have personally visited the future. But you don't need canonical NPCs; make one up that fits your campaign. It's bound to be more interesting.
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    Wed May 16, 2012 3:15 pm  

    I'd also point out that both the mystic and savant classes from Adventures Dark and Deep could fit the bill nicely, and would agree with Rasgon that it doesn't sound like a "canonical" NPC is necessarily required.

    Although there's always the Oracle from the Empire of Lynn all the way on the far western end of Oerik. Not 100% canonical, I'll grant you, but still there if you absolutely don't want to make up an NPC in the Flanaess to suit your purposes.

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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed May 16, 2012 5:50 pm  

    There's the Grey Seer, an advisor to Nyrond's kings, described on p. 92 of Marklands.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed May 16, 2012 10:33 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk oracles?

    Excerpted from Excalibur:

    Arthur: Will he live?

    Merlin: Oh, yes.

    Arthur: Will Guenevere...?

    Merlin: Yes.

    Arthur: Merlin, will I ever have a son?

    Merlin: Yes.

    Arthur: No riddles, nothing but a simple "yes"?

    Merlin: Well, yes. You see, the last time you asked me questions, I could only cast the divination spell, so I necessarily had to be more cryptic. I'm a bit more powerful now you see, and can cast the commune spell. So...yes, nothing but simple "yes", or "no", for you now.

    ***

    Okay, maybe that last line wasn't exactly from the movie, but it gets the point across. An oracle could literally be any named NPC capable of casting augury, divination, commune, commune with nature, contact other plane, or other similar spell. Lots of named NPC options out there. Spell casters are not just toolboxes full of healing battle magic after all. Wink

    Arthur: Which is the greatest quality of oracles? Courage? Compassion? Loyalty? Humility? Chastity? Blindness? What do you say, Merlin?

    Merlin: The greatest? Well, they blend like the metals we mix to make a good sword.

    Arthur: No poetry. Just a straight answer. Which is it?

    Merlin: All right, then! Truth. That's it. Yes. It must be truth; well, that and spell capability, above all. When an oracle has no truth to speak, they obviously don't have any spell capability. They are just some sort of mumbling idiot running about naked in a filthy cave and talking to bugs, or people who aren't there. That's why you go and see some sort of oracle with spell capability. You know, somebody who can cast augury, divination, commune, commune with nature, contact other plane, etc. That is how you find out the truth. You should know that!

    Laughing
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    Thu May 17, 2012 10:38 am  

    Well as always, Rasgon makes a lot of sense.

    Here comes a lame explanation. Are you ready?
    Well, I was simply looking through the spells (of any edition) and I really couldn't find one that give you an answer to a question like this:
    "Who will be the hero to save the world?"
    Things like Commune and Divination don't fly very well with this one.

    Also it seems that my players don't appreciate it when NPCs sort of "break rules". If an NPC has some power outside the rulebooks, they want to have an access to it also. Therefore I imagined it would be helpful to find some canonical NPC that had these sort of convenient all-knowing divination powers to better justify it.

    But really, I will find some option. I think a place that enhances Contact Other Plane would do great. Instead of "yes/or"-answer, you would receive more detailed information. Just for flavor, you could only contact Astral Plane. That would make it seem more fair: NPCs don't possess superpowers but instead there are "super places" open for anyone who have the authority and power to occupy them.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu May 17, 2012 10:59 am  

    rasgon wrote:


    Sutemi wrote:
    I need some canonical NPC with an ability to see into the future.


    No, you don't. Make one up... Mordenkainen is said to have had visions of the destiny of the Blood War, and Drawmij is said to be dabbling in chronomancy. Heward lives in a temporal nexus, so he may have personally visited the future. But you don't need canonical NPCs; make one up that fits your campaign. It's bound to be more interesting.


    -I agree that Sutemi doesn't NEED a canonical NPC seer, but I can think of two reasons to use one:

    1) As a tie-in to the "big" campaign. If it's someone like Mordenkainen, tho', it could come off like name-dropping;

    2) To avoid cluttering the WOG with innumerable, all-powerful seers (or anything else). In most cases, tho', it's not a huge danger.

    Sutemi wrote:
    ...Here comes a lame explanation. Are you ready?
    Well, I was simply looking through the spells (of any edition) and I really couldn't find one that give you an answer to a question like this:
    "Who will be the hero to save the world?"
    Things like Commune and Divination don't fly very well with this one.

    Also it seems that my players don't appreciate it when NPCs sort of "break rules"...


    -I'm not sure where or when your campaign takes place, but in the LG campaign, there were adventures which revolved around a young blind boy in northern Ratik who was a seer. It takes place in the early 590s. There's also the priestess of Fate of Istus set in Wintershiven (IIRC). You could recycle her, using her before, during or after the events in the story. In both cases, the special power simply came from deities (Celestian for the boy, Itsus for the priestess). Tell your PCs that they can't be seers because Istus and Celestian (or Ralishaz, or Boccob or whoever) have given them other talents- they're fearless PCs who never check morale. Razz
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    Thu May 17, 2012 1:33 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk oracles?

    rasgon wrote:
    ... Drawmij is said to be dabbling in chronomancy. Heward lives in a temporal nexus, so he may have personally visited the future.

    First: I *love* chronomancy. It is far under-rated, I think.
    Second: Heward lives in a ... what the what?!! Shocked

    How on Oerth have I missed this? Please, please, tell me where that comes from so that I can read all about it! Since the Great Library of Greyhawk is down, I have to know! Wink
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu May 17, 2012 3:21 pm  

    Sutemi wrote:
    Also it seems that my players don't appreciate it when NPCs sort of "break rules". If an NPC has some power outside the rulebooks, they want to have an access to it also. Therefore I imagined it would be helpful to find some canonical NPC that had these sort of convenient all-knowing divination powers to better justify it.

    But really, I will find some option. I think a place that enhances Contact Other Plane would do great. Instead of "yes/or"-answer, you would receive more detailed information. Just for flavor, you could only contact Astral Plane. That would make it seem more fair: NPCs don't possess superpowers but instead there are "super places" open for anyone who have the authority and power to occupy them.


    Seriously? What are they going to do? If it's a spell would they try and force the oracle to give them the spell?
    GreySage

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    Thu May 17, 2012 5:27 pm  

    Sutemi wrote:

    I think a place that enhances Contact Other Plane would do great. Instead of "yes/or"-answer, you would receive more detailed information.


    Tovag Baragu may suit that description. An evil alternative may be the Cauldron of Night.

    SirXaris
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    Thu May 17, 2012 11:30 pm  

    Hmm. I could swear that there was a divination spell that allowed for a short, cryptic answer that was not limited by location. There are so many books, from 1E to 4E, that it may take some time to find it. Anyways, what I think you would like is a spell that would result in an oracular response something like, "Seek ye the mean Child of Stone in the city where a beautiful heretic dwells among the faithful.", meaning "Seek the dirt poor mason's apprentice in Wintershiven, where the faith of Wee Jas really stands out among the ever present faith of Pholtus." Or something like that. Such a spell would be perfect for all occasions, excepting the occasion when there are only thick-skulled players sitting around the game table. Laughing

    But, when there isn't a spell that perfectly suits your needs, you make one that does, and the players be damned. That's why spell research rules/parameters ever existed in the first place place, and why new spells are introduced in modules very, very often.
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    GreySage

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    Fri May 18, 2012 12:24 am  
    Re: Greyhawk oracles?

    Icarus wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    ... Drawmij is said to be dabbling in chronomancy. Heward lives in a temporal nexus, so he may have personally visited the future.

    First: I *love* chronomancy. It is far under-rated, I think.
    Second: Heward lives in a ... what the what?!! Shocked

    How on Oerth have I missed this? Please, please, tell me where that comes from so that I can read all about it! Since the Great Library of Greyhawk is down, I have to know! Wink


    See Living Greyhawk Journal #0 for Drawmij's chonomancy and Heward's original description in Dragon #whatever and the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set.

    NPCs who might know about the destined savior of the world might include Philidor, the Walker, and some of the People of the Testing. Or the golem sent back in time to kill the savior.
    GreySage

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    Fri May 18, 2012 5:43 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    "Who will be the hero to save the world?"
    Things like Commune and Divination don't fly very well with this one.


    Actually, I disagree. Commune allows the caster to ask a question directly of their God. Despite the spell description, the "God" can answer the question any damn way he or she pleases. So, yes, Commune works in this situation.

    Sutemi wrote:
    Also it seems that my players don't appreciate it when NPCs sort of "break rules". If an NPC has some power outside the rulebooks, they want to have an access to it also.


    Again . . . bogus.

    I refer you to the City of Greyhawk boxed set, book I, page 20: Bubka's Superior Identification. It's Bubka Kondradis' own version of the Identify spell. It is always accurate, never failing to fully identify the object AND . . .

    . . . is a complete secret that he shares with NO ONE. Even Mordy and Rary don't know it. So, tell your players . . .

    Razz

    Because they don't know it either.

    And remind your players, sometimes . . . Life SUCKS! Evil Grin
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    Fri May 18, 2012 8:17 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    And remind your players, sometimes . . . Life SUCKS! Evil Grin

    LOL and if they want FAIR... that "sport" has a referee too and rest between rounds... otherwise its called fight and survival... and the difference between a good game and a great one is the roleplay in overcoming those things that are UNIQUE.... BAhhhaawwwwaaaa Evil Grin
    Seriously,, IMOC, I use a variety of "in game" and out of game "prophetic Oracles".
    for Example,
    Out of game, We have a collection of actual songs (referred to as Songs of the BARDS) that my players submit and I "build campaign ideas around". I create ties to past events, current events and potential future events....
    Past events, being PC parentage (we refer to Generation 1)
    Current events> Current game generation
    Future events> if near future PCs themselves, or their potential prodigy.
    One example would be Blue Oyster Cults "Vengeance: The Pack" It deals with barbarians and a battle or two just to name a few elements.. it was not difficult to tie this into the tail end of the GH Wars. Thus giving the Players a sense of prophesy by knowing the song, but having to "figure out who the song is about".
    Obviously this is alittle work but worth the end product. some songs just dont fit without alot of modifying while others fit easily by doing double entendre. We currently have 97 songs in game at this point. with over 3700 game element ties.
    This gives me LOTS of game jumping off points and my players submitting potential new ones to the mix gets their involvement and can be explained as knowing family histories, legends, new rumors, etc.
    IN GAME, I apply those song elements into phrases NPCs might say, or occurrences that mirror events within the song .. giving a de'ja' vu effect for the PC based on player knowledge. In some cases the entirety of the song is passed along as an omen via a Renhee fortune teller (as suggested elsewhere here) or a bardic song in a tavern.
    And as with all prophetic knowledge it is subject to change based on the changing time line and results of linear things. The Players must accept that the fortunes foretold are only ONE possible future of many.. they are the HEROS they can effect the FUTURE.


    Last edited by Dark_Lord_Galen on Fri May 18, 2012 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri May 18, 2012 8:27 am  

    ^That.^

    Some versions of commune do allow for short answers too. One limits it to five words or less, but I would fudge that in the interest of actually giving the PCs a decent cryptic message. Less than five words is pretty pathetic, and reminds of the the extra special "Drink more Ovaltine." message from the movie "A Christmas Story". Razz
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    Fri May 18, 2012 2:18 pm  

    I think that there was a church of Istus in Nyrond where the high priestess was a seer. You have the Fires of Time in Sunndi. Aulicus the Prophet of the Hool (although his prophecies may not have been his own). Some elves that have passed through the Moonarch of Sehanine return with the Gift of Prophecy. In our campaign, Ellavandrel Moralana, a grey elf mage-thief from Celene was dominated by the crystal hypnosis ball attuned to Zuggtmoy in ToEE and was cured by passing through the Moonarch such that she could now use the crystal ball to use contact other plane and essentially force the demon to answer her questions.
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    Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:04 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk oracles?

    rasgon wrote:
    Icarus wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Mordenkainen is said to have had visions of the destiny of the Blood War, and Drawmij is said to be dabbling in chronomancy. Heward lives in a temporal nexus, so he may have personally visited the future. But you don't need canonical NPCs; make one up that fits your campaign. It's bound to be more interesting.


    Second: Heward lives in a ... what the what?!! Shocked

    How on Oerth have I missed this? Please, please, tell me where that comes from so that I can read all about it! Since the Great Library of Greyhawk is down, I have to know! Wink


    See Living Greyhawk Journal #0 for Drawmij's chonomancy and Heward's original description in Dragon #whatever and the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set.


    Heward was described originally in Dragon #71, along with Murlynd, who's clearly also a time-traveller (see also EX2 Land Beyond the Magic Mirror for more about him and his "lair").

    I also second Rip's recommendation of creating your own equivalent to the Sybil of Cumae (see Dragon 58 for a model, if you're interested). I've created an oracular monastery on the edge of lands of the Maures that I'll eventually write up one day. Perhaps I'll add an inn or tavern to the complex and make it a postfest entry ;)
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:51 pm  

    I can't believe I forgot this. Dragon Magazine #53 has the Oracle NPC class in it. It covers everything. Cool
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    Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:31 pm  

    You could always use an elemental weird. They were detailed for 3.0 in MM2.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:42 am  
    Oracles in GH

    I know that you're maiking an NPC, and I am not entirely certain if you're just looking for RP storyline for including one, or if you're looking to completely stat-out the NPC.
    But, if you're doing stats, and if you're using 3rd Edition (3.x) for something similar, there's a great class that's perfect, I think. It's a Pathfinder base class, but, it's 100% backwards-complatible with 3rd Edition. It's the "Oracle" class. Here's a little taste of the class, and if you're interested, it can be found at the Pathfinder SRD:
    Pathfinder SRD wrote:
    Although the gods work through many agents, perhaps none is more mysterious than the oracle. These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. While some see the powers of the oracle as a gift, others view them as a curse, changing the life of the chosen in unforeseen ways.

    Role: Oracles do not usually associate with any one church or temple, instead preferring to strike out on their own, or with a small group of like-minded individuals. Oracles typically use their spells and revelations to further their understanding of their mystery, be it through fighting mighty battles or tending to the poor and sick.


    Also, there are things that are alternate class ability templates for specializing the archetype of the oracle, including
    • Black-Blooded
    • Oracle
    • Dual-Cursed Oracle
    • Enlightened Philosopher
    • Planar Oracle
    • Possessed Oracle
    • Seeker (Oracle)
    • Seer
    • Stargazer


    Anyway, hope it helps you flesh out this really neat idea for stuff in GH. I've been following the thread with interest, learning some from the posts herein. Thanks for a great subject to read up on.
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    Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:38 pm  

    Good question Icarus. I was mainly interested in canonical oracles, no matter how detailed they are. There is lot of good information here but really I think that SC-Tiny provided me with exactly what I wanted: An Elemental Weird. High up in the mountains there's an Earth Weird who knows who will be the saviour of the mankind. He/she has the right stuff.

    Thank you guys and if you have any more valuable information please tell me. I'm all ears Smile
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    Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:09 am  
    Pathfinder Oracles, Summoners and Witches in Greyhawk?

    Rather than create a new thread, I thought this question relevant enough to be properly placed here. Sutemi, I hope you don't mind, and if so, please just let me know, and I'll start a new post.

    I'm recently returning to GH online and have been collecting / studying Pathfinder for the past couple of years.

    My question is about how folks have incorporated Pathfinder Oracles, Summoners ("god-callers") and Witches in their campaigns (if at all).

    I'm developing a NPC character and backstory based in North Province / Kingdom and realized that the Pathfinder witch might be superior to using the wizard class. This got me to thinking about Iggwilv, mentioned by a poster above in regards to a Pathfinder module, etc.

    So how about it, how have folks used these relatively new classes to animate their GH campaigns?
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