When a lycanthrope (whatever type) shifts to hybrid (man-beast) form, but the character's hp are greater in human form, do you still use the hp total rolled by 'monster' HD?
Ex: a 5th lvl figher has 45 hit points but is afflicted with werewolf lycanthropy (4+3 HD...let's say the total is 25 hp). When said fighter shits into beast form, what total is used?
You may think this is straightforward, but I recall seeing that the wererat priest of Incabulos in the City of Greyhawk boxed set (Kelas by name) has his hp total of 44 hp in both his 'beast' and human entries. I don't think this was a mistake personally...
I've always used the greater total, whether that is the beast or human form. This entry seems to back my ruling.
Will peruse my "Complete Guide to Werebeasts" but I don't recall anything saying one way or the other on this...
I have always used the human form HP total as this role would be the one that improves as the character/npc gains levels. Otherwise it would be pointless to shift into were form.
What rules do you use when the creature/npc shifts from one form to another WRT healing? I believe patial of the damage is healed when shifting but limited.
DarkHerald, between 10-60% of all damage is healed when the lycanthrope reverts to human form (only).
As for your collective thoughts, DH and BW, I would tend to agree. Use the greater total of hp, less b/c of 'desire' on part of the lycanthrope, as many newly afflicted characters have minimal to no control, and more b/c of the experience from the character class 'bleeding over' to the wereform. I would think that a were-beast fighter's experience translates over, for instance, to its augmented beastly form, ESPECIALLY if that lycanthrope has some control over its body, as well as mental abilities. This would hold especially true, methinks, to those more 'experienced' afflicted characters (see old DMG table on this) as well as natural shifters.
I guess I could 'see' how lycanthropes in their full beast (animal) forms might not get the benefit of class hp, but I would very much figure that the hybrid forms (man-beast) would.
Furthermore, I would think that THACO would improve as well, but only with respect to weapons used, if that THACO is better by character class than natural lycanthrope THACO. However, the caveat to that, I would think, is when the lycanthrope uses a natural attack form, such as tooth and claw. In that case, I use the THACO given by the were-creature statistic.
Next question. Would you allow spell-casters to use spells in were-beast form? My initial thoughts are no, b/c of limited speaking ability due to anatomical differences...but I am open to debate on this. For the record, according to Van Richten's Guide to Were-Beasts, natural shifters CAN speak, albeit with beastly and gruff voices...hmmm....
I would recommend using the better of the the two stats in all cases, as becoming a were-creature is not a downgrade at all, but an upgrade in physical power in all cases. So, better base AC of the two, better THAC0 of the two, better H.P. of the two, and combined stat bonuses for the two. You might also wish to not only use the better base HD/H.P., but compare the base H.D./H.P. of the character race to that of the lycanthrope in question, and add the difference from the lycanthrope to the total. For instance, a human has 1 HD, but when they turn into a werewolf they have 4+3 H.D., meaning a net gain of 3+3 HD So, a 10th level Fighter that is also werewolf will gain 3+3 HD, if they assume werewolf form (as well as any other bonuses beyond that of the normal base human form).
I am of the opinion that there should never be a downgrade in anything, regardless of the form taken- even in full animal form. The full wolf form of a 10th level fighter werewolf will be limited only by what its form can do (e.g. it can only bite), not its inherently learned fighting ability (THAC0, H.P., etc.), and it could get even better (e.g. use the better THAC0 of a 10th level fighter or 13 HD Monster for a 10th level Fighter that is a Werewolf) . Also, I would carry stats over to the assumed form, such that a human with 16 Strength that turns into a werebear will be much more physically powerful in its were-forms than a human with a 10 Strength will be.
Looking back on these 2E rules reminds me of one of the reasons why I like the 3E rules. 3E handles certain things, like the addition of character altering templates such as lycanthropy, so much better. That comes out of improving upon what previous rules were written though, such that most 3E rules are very clearly defined. There are quite a few rules that are just not well defined in 2E (and in 1E for that matter). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I have always used Cebrion's explanation for 2e. The better of the two applies. 3E did clarify many of the rules. Much like 2E improved upon some 1e rules.
This time, I'll simply concur with Cebrion and Argon.
I always considered lycanthropy to be an increase of power for the individual, so I gave the individual the same number of hit points no matter what form it was in. I also kept their THAC0, etc. the same, though the form of attack available to them changed with their physical form.
Take a look at the 3.5e templates and see if you can make them work for you in 2nd ed. They provide a very easy answer to all your questions in this regard.
What about spell-casting in werebeast form? (see above question)
Nope. Animal mouths can't produce verbal components, and not having humanoid hands sort of kills somatic components.
Lanthorn wrote:
Also, I recall reading in the (1e?) DMG that werebeasts don't get XP for performing class functions (ex: fighter, etc) if they are in were-form.
That is included in there because lycanthropy is a special type of curse. If you can't remember what you did while in lycanthrope form, you obviously can't gain experience from it. It is meant to be a curse- an uncontrolled curse.
For true lycanthropes, you can go by the 2E Ravenloft guides for further ideas, as those books cover pretty much any classic horror movie monster, including lycanthropes.
As to 3E, there may be some unique Feats for shapechangers, both druids and lycanthropes. Some of them have to do with spellcasting while in alternate forms too. I'll have to hunt those down and see if they are just for a Druid's Wild Shape ability, or if they could be used by shapechangers in general though. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
For true lycanthropes, you can go by the 2E Ravenloft guides for further ideas, as those books cover pretty much any classic horror movie monster, including lycanthropes.
The Ravenloft supplement mentions that natural shifters can talk in their man-beast forms, so it begs the question if they can cast spells. I'd think so.
Yes, please let me know what 3e has done about spell-casting lycanthropes (in man-beast forms). Curious...
For true lycanthropes, you can go by the 2E Ravenloft guides for further ideas, as those books cover pretty much any classic horror movie monster, including lycanthropes.
The Ravenloft supplement mentions that natural shifters can talk in their man-beast forms, so it begs the question if they can cast spells. I'd think so.
Being able to talk doesn't mean being able to enunciate precise sounds. Thinks of how the critters in The Island of Dr. Moreau movies sound, and you will get what I mean. I would pay more attention to what the books say about spellcasting capability, rather than being able to to get out speech that is understandable enough. Verbal spell components require precise enunciation. If one doesn't get it right, bad things can happen. Just ask Ash.
Those that are cursed with Lycanthropy cannot cast spells. Even if they could speak I would rule that the bestial urges prevent the Lycanthrope from performing the precise nuisances and focus necessary to cast a spell.
However, with a true lycanthrope one might limit spell casting to spell level available based on half the actual spell casting level of the lycanthrope. Also most spells that require a material component cannot be cast in this form.
Example a 5th level wizard is also a true lycanthrope in its were form it can only cast spells available to a 3nd level wizard and none of those spells can be cast if they contain a material component in its casting.
Though if the lycanthrope is a druid with feats that allow it to cast in were-form remove the restrictions and go by the ruling for the feat.
This is not a hard and fast rule just a suggestion.
I will have to reread what the Ravenloft guide offers, but I get your amusing yet good point. Also, in a Dragon Magazine I own there is a complete section about lycanthropes, including spells specifically tailored to them, including ones they can cast in were-form! But I am not sure if that means they can only cast those spells only...or if true lycanthropes can master speech to a degree that 'breaks' the traditional rules. I will have to peruse once more.
If spellcasting is not normally allowed by lycanthropes in were-form, I think that it would be great to have spells specifically crafted to to be usable only in were-form, which assumes that any verbal or somatic components for such spells are based on the capabilities of those forms, and so such spells could not be used by the usual humanoid spellcasters. if there is a spellcasting restriction, and you do choose to allow such spells, I would also say that any spellcasting lycanthrope could use spell research, for any spell, to create a were-form specific version of that spell, which couldn't be used when in humanoid form, or by any regular humanoid spellcasters. For inscne, a lkycanthrope could memorize a regular fireball (usable in humanoid form, as is norml), and also a special lycanthrope fireball (only useable in hybrid or animal wereform). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
For anyone interested who can access a copy, it is Dragon Magazine 266 with such information as follows:
1) More shapeshifter types: black swanmay (priests and warriors), laridian (sea gull rogues), red falcons (evil fighters and priests), thebestyn (ibis mages)
2) More hengeyokai (shapeshifters) for an Oriental campaign
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