Thanks for the info Enslaved_DM.
Damn! It sounds interesting. My 2e allows for monsters bonuses, and my humanoids leaders are already PC like. But if 3e has -25ac and 400hp monsters how do you stabilze the boundaries of your world?
Like, here is chendl ruins, visited by a passing dragon and destroyed to a stone because no one in the land could stop it, eater of the royal court, eventually the great dragon died from overeating every village in the flanaess.
If I understand you, then the Scarlet Brotherhood controling monsters becomes a huge powershift for them and Iuz could never have lost or even slowed down his conquest of the flanaess. (I never really understood what exaclty stopped the legion of black death from sacking chendl or mitrik for that matter).
OK, I just reread your post. There does seem to be a Epic degenerating spiral that has to be managed, and I see now that a 12 level fighter will have 12d10 hp + con bonus if I read you right. But it still looks like the legion of black death would overwhelm any force.
I can see that there must be a lot of checks and balances. Moving to d20 sounds like a complete revamp of the old system.
I stopped playing 2e and didn't play any D&D until 3rd. I wouldn't consider going back.
It is similar enough that you'll pick it up quickly. Humanoids have character levels (base is level 1 warrior [npc fighter type class]) and you have equivalent levels for powerful races. If you are in a setting that allows hobgoblins (like Eberron) then you pay 1 level for all the hobgoblin benefits. That's how you can have unnerfed drow as PCs. Drow abilities have a +2 LA(level adjustment). A 4th level drow character is equivalent of a 6th level human.
Damage also goes up. In 2e damage dealing spells hit a plateau around 3rd level and only got a little stronger. The higher level damage dealing spells are nastier and 3rd and metamagic can make it worse. There is a built in critical system and feats like Improved Critical make it nastier. Magic weapon properties like flaming and shock also up the damage. Of course, NPCs and monsters benefit from this. The feats that an elder dragon has are quite scary and it goes a long way towards making each dragon unique with its own style of combat.
Dragons and demonlords take a lot of killing, but if you have five characters doing 20+ hp damage/round (and they can be doing a lot more) then that is 100+hp/round to the target. That kills a lot of things in a couple rounds. Of course, that is assuming that everything goes right. And how often does that happen in combat?
Damage also goes up. In 2e damage dealing spells hit a plateau around 3rd level and only got a little stronger.
As an exclusive 2nd Ed. player I would wholey agree with that statement as it pertains to damage dealing spells, which was stated. I'll try to list more than 1 example to better explain my reasoning.
For mages, once Fireball and/or Lightning Bolt are attained there aren't many that compete with raw output. Cone of Cold being 2 levels higher doesn't even really make a difference except perhaps in modified saving throw situations.
The one thing that is added at higher levels in 2nd Ed. however, is the big gun "save or die" type spells. Finger of Death, Cloudkill, and Deathspell for example.
Granted, most equally challenging opponents have a decent chance to avoid the effects of those types of spells. But, to be able to simply walk down the processional and "snuff" anothers life away by merely uttering a few words is deffinately powerful. (and evil heh)
On the other end of the spectrum, Priests do not seem to fall to this same technicality. Spells like Flame Strike, Blade Barrier, and Harm are deffinate improvements over their lower level offensive spells.
Anyway, I'm glad you enjoy 3rd Ed. Enslaved_DM. As long as it's Greyhawk, it's all good. _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
Indeed edition wars do rear their ugly head on this topic, alas it is a point I share as well. 3e supports epic level play better, but far from perfectly, thus the topic. But please lets step away slowly and with deep breaths for turning this into another edition wars.
I've been surfing and 3e has Epic level handbook or somesuch. Hey Anced_Math, did you mean this for 3.0 only? I've given many High level adventure hooks and gaming machanics ideas here but maybe they are obsolete with level 40 PCs and the newer formats. CF faq doesnt list many of the acronyms so I don't understand a few of the references- like CR.
It has been my experience that players entering my world from others is that roleplaying is a distant 3rd to combat and goodie grabbing. Many have said things like "I didn't know orcs could be so tough". All I do utilize a creatures inherent advantages (especially in their lair) as much as I can, and build alot of roleplaying inroads so 'kill it' is not often the first reaction from PCs. Injured monsters retreat to ambush or appear again or tell their tribe etc. Oh, I also control the spells, magic, and money I dole out. Is Epic play reduced to "It's real big let's kill it"?
Are 20+ level characters so powerful that the DM can't handle them anymore? I find this most unlikely. In my High level campains, I have a lot more work to do, but so do the players. I can't imagine anything a PC can try that I can't counter or balance.(I've scrambled from suprises though-clever PC's) As for fighting gods well, if I have great pc's that are friends and ask me, I might make a campain where this could happen. I would be awed If they live, but they would never actually defeat a god.
How does 3+e deal with epic better? Please be as specific as you think a 2e DM/PC vet could understand.
If It isn't clear, I enjoy greyhawk. I'm asking about editions to understand not to condemn. I am the only one who understands my system, like most home DM's and their players. So please don't think I'm about to be attacking yours.
I did not intend this to become an edition war. I play 3rd. I like the system and the fixes for many of the things that were broken in earlier versions. Earlier versions have other charms about them, and i am not bashing them, I found though that I was working with a long list of House Rules that were often very similar to 3ed, and it was great to convert.
My question was a story/mechanic question though, and could apply to any edition. When characters start to exceed the average level of the local emporer/king/pasha or high holy wumpump, what do you (all of you) do. How well does the GH Setting handle it.
I have a standing rule: If my players are bored, do not like the direction, or think their character would, they can go left. or west. or down. or teleport.
The richness of GH and the depth of the history make this possible, and despite some of the absurdities (nb: Isles of Woe is another of my threads) the LG sites are invaluable resources for this. "Oh, you say you are bored trying to liberate Geoff, and wish to Shadow walk to Bone March and try your hand there? Give me 15 min and the AEG Toolbox, and I can create a story." On several occasions my players have retreated right out of my adventure arc.
When the characters arrive at 20 + level, regardless of the edition, it becomes harder to contain them and still follow a common set of rules and agreements. They understand that I can and will play the DM card IF I HAVE TO. It is not necessary very often.
In GH, it seems that the world is geared towards 15th level rulers; I want to keep some of the characters running into levels higher than this. As they progress, I do not want to play the DM card more often.
So, Muscles, the question is two fold, one 3ed specific. 1) Does 3ed., epic play in general, and GH Epic play specifically, work mechanically.
2) (for all eds) what story limitations do you use to restrain/contain characters in a way that they appreciate and enjoy.
I will end by noting that the players I am interesting in pursuing Epic play with are all level headed interesting people who value Role playing as much as hack and slash. They have developed characters with an enormous amount of character and panache. Some of these might reach the legendary status of the Circle of 8 or the Crazy Archmage or others. At least in my game.
I don't play Greyhawk, but I find the activities of this board useful and interesting. I don't have anything against it, either.
I was asked about 3rd and I gave my opinion. If you have played and 3.0 you would realize that it deals with larger amounts of damage and hitpoints. I said that 3rd edition had brought me back to a game I had stopped playing, an expression of my satisfaction with the system.
Heal/Harm was so broken that it finally got fixed in 3.5. That's one exception.
Finger of Death, Disintegrate are save or die, not a "damage dealers." Since the only campaign I play in (as oppossed to run) I load up on these, I do know the difference. In 3.0, some creatures actually fail their saves versus these puppies.
2e Flamestrike did the 6d8 from a 5th level spell. Not exactly an uber fireball. I'm not exactly shaking in my boots. Compared to 15d6 (half of the damage being divine wrath) it can get to in 3rd (not counting metamagic).
Chain Lightning was 6th level and did 2 more dice that 3rd level Lightning Bolt or 5th level Cone of Cold.
I ran one epic campaign and I didn't have any problems with the players being uncontrolled. They had some problems surviving. It was pretty rough on them (of course, they had no casters so it wasn't exactly a stereotypical mix).
Well to the point of 3e and other editions handling Epic better..I have played High Level in 2e/2.5e and into 1e a bit (we stopped around 23rd there), I dont mean to belittle any editions handling of high level characters and situations, but since AC is not capped in 3e and attack bonuses are staggered for full attacks, monsters scaleable and more open to changes in 3e and the epic supplement has a new progression of advancement that I consider it a better way of handling the vagaries of high level play. In the end it is up to each DM and players to explore those higher levels and styles of play, and those that choose to do so will find ways around those problems, like myself I made the switch to 3e and find it superior, but I dont belittle others for using older editions either. But that is secondary to having clear cut goals and solid backing of characters in the game world that uses high level options, in either case of editions if you dont have that you dont have a game suitable for high level play. Play shouldnt stop because the charts stop. As it should be clearly known, GH has high level characters and finding situations to fill these roles are in the DM's hand, if he wants to use it. I for one dont like to see a good game stop merely because of a glass ceiling such as 2e had until the High Level Option Handbook came out, 1e had such a level grind that really high levels were really hard to reach.
But really getting to the point better is what options exsist that allow such kinds of play in GH, I for one look to the Sunken Isles, forgotten tombs of the West and Vecnas legacies for inspiration, among others ideas as well!
Glad to see greyhawk really is more important than editions.
Thanks all for clarifications.
I see more of what you are asking now Anced_Math.
I have spent a great amount of time on my adventure arcs, and although I like your sentiment of house rule #1 but I could never use it. I get alot of imput from my players, how did you like this? what direction would you like to take the party in? etc. If I built a 15+ level story, with their input and they decide suddenly my efforts don't interest them, then there would be a problem.
I'm not sure what you mean by the DM card. Some DM say 'cause I said so. Some make characters do things they don't want to do by DM magic, "you did not just slap the king, you only imagined it and he has left''.
I use unscripted events to keep players in line with the story arc, or add/delete encounters or numbers or hit points on the fly to maintain the mood I'm looking for.
If a PC says I wanna go over there to that city, a mysterious begger, wayward orphan, bleeding victim, eerie noise, will appeal to that character and bring them back to the plotline.
You mentioned freeing Geoff. Epic level play for sure. may I suggest we pool our thoughts to an epic Geoff campain. For a point of reference.
Also do you find any value in my above posts re- high level play. re- Traps, timed senarios, dealing with environment, etc. ( I still don't know if epic characters in 3e have rings of magic regeneration etc)
with a bit of work the 25th Anniversary Against the Giants ~Liberation of Geoff~ is a good start, with a bit of work it can be made into a nice Epic level playing feild and also incorporating all levels of play while it happens.
I would greatly enjoy a discussion and pooling of ideas on the Liberation of Geoff; I just bought the anniversary edition, and I was very pleased.
Maybe in a new thread.
Muscles, actually I want to talk specifics on the story arc devices you mentioned, but I will take it out of thread, as it will probably bore most of the people here. Also, I will be providing attachments from my game. Give me shout at mlheath@mindspring.com.
This thread has been very informative. When I originally posted it, I was leaning heavily away from going epic. Now, I have decided that, with a great deal of preparation, i will.
I see...... martyrs, yes lots of of martyrs on the fields of Geoff, OH Look! I recognize some, I see my players there!!!!
Bah! I would think a new thread on that might be in order, I for one would have enjoyed a discussion about it as well as other epic idea threads . Either way its easy to make almost any good idea and convert it to high level play, and if that is what you want to see then let it flow forth not stop gap it.
... Yet once the Epic PCs got their big egos on, what do they scheme on? To take out Iuz of course. ....
You know what you should do? Show them why Iuz hasn't been "taken out"! After all, he is a god (demigod in fact, but still high in power than mere mortals, even if they are epic.)
If they are scheming (and using Iuz's name especially), he's going to know about it. Let them try to take him out. Just remember, that Iuz would have knowledge of their plan. Since you are likely to be present while they are making their plans to attack Iuz, use that knowledge against them. Or force them to meet Iuz before they are ready (much like PC like to do the the bad guys!) Might be a way for you to "retire" the epic party.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
...Attempting to take on Iuz all by your lonesome is stupid, especially if you've offended a lot of people in the past with your rash actions. ... know better than to take on someone as powerful as the Old One without careful planning and preparation. More likely, they'll draw Iuz's attention to wherever they're attacking from, and possibly put innocent people in danger if Iuz perceives them as enough of a threat to warrant a pre-emptive assault on their home base. If all else fails, let them take the Old One on...and make them run the gauntlet of his Boneheart spellcasters, all the way up to Halga, Null, and a pack of mariliths. >:D ... ...
I agree whole heartedly! _________________ One sword is good, but two are better!!
I have enjoyed play in all versions of D&D. I find that there are interesting differences between all editions. I like 1st edition for its simplicity and ease. I like 2nd because of the wealth of story material that was developed and more fully fleshed out. I like 3rd because it took a little from all editions and made it work. In other words...simpler rules coupled with good story and and a seeming unending drive. Does this make it better?? Maybe, maybe not. The point is it had to have a good foundation. I see it as an evolution and thereby as something different. You can't really compare one edition to another. You are talking apples and oranges.
On another note, I do play in an epic campaign. We do roleplay..sometimes well ...hehe and sometimes not. I believe we are level headed people and we try to inject some of our own experience in this fantasy environment. I believe that we are becoming part and parcel of the world that the DM has created. Just because an epic character can do epic things doesn't mean he should do them all of the time...or maybe even at all. I am however waxing verbose...
On the subject of god-killing....any God worth his salt will send his absolutely most powerful EPIC servants after said would-be god-killers.
This means personages of your campaign chasing you down left and right... unless said party was really in hiding they are constantly fighting for their lives. _________________ Perfection is a journey ... not a destination
In my on-again/off-again D&D 3E Greyhawk campaign that I started shortly after the release of the 3E core books in 2000, the PCs are all around 5th level now (except for a new PC that is 3rd). I kept encounters fairly simple -- and perhaps too easy -- for the first few years of the adventure. It was partly just own bad planning, but at least it's kept the general power level fairly low. My preference is the low to mid level range.
However, I'm now running my group through the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure, and XP seems to be flying. We're not even halfway through the moathouse, but looking ahead, it seems there are a lot of encounters that won't be all that challenging but will give a half-decent amount of XP. I fully expect that the PCs will start going up levels at a much quicker pace.
Anyway, I'm just yammering on at this point. The point is that once we get through the RttToEE module (probably in about two years or so), the PCs are very likely to be up around 14th or 15th level. By that time, they'd be getting quite powerful, and it's been a long time since I ran a higher level game -- and I really don't know if I want to take these characters into the epic level range. I just have a hard time seeing epic level characters running dungeons and doing pretty much the same thing they did in the low to mid level range.
At what point do you think the style of game you're running changes? My guess would be around 15th. At that point, the PCs should be fairly wealthy and be capable of defeating some pretty powerful foes. So what changes as you go into the high and epic levels in your games? _________________ Chris Talbot
D&D 3.0E Greyhawk DM
Once i get my campaign to 15+ lv monsters start to get advancements or class levels. Magic items become less viable in treasure since most PCs can make or buy them anyways. My players start to dictate the direction of the campaign more since by then they have agendas to complete, more often than not I can work them into my plans. High level PCs also become less afraid of local authority no matter the alignment so you need to get creative with keeping PCs in line.
My current GH game the PC's are only about 8th level. BUt I do have plans for and epic level storyline. The current storyline ends with the Bastion of Broken Souls aventure. Then into the epic plot line. Dealing with the very nature/source of magic and why GH has so many Liches. Along with the aftermath of God of War from the Chainmail GH setting. At that point I plan on bringing in sets of second tier characters for the players to give missions to and play on several of these missions.
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and panache. Some of these might reach the legendary status of the Circle of 8 or the Crazy Archmage or others. At least in my game.
. Either way its easy to make almost any good idea and convert it to high level play, and if that is what you want to see then let it flow forth not stop gap it.
