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    Canonfire :: View topic - Trithereon: Liberty vs. Freedom?
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    Trithereon: Liberty vs. Freedom?
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:38 am  
    Trithereon: Liberty vs. Freedom?

    I am taking this moment to create a new thread on behalf of Wolfling who postulated the following statement my accessory thread regarding Clerics vs. Specialty Priests:

    Wolfling wrote:
    Actually Lanthorn's mention on The Summoner reminds me, one of the two priests in my current party is one of Trithereon. He asked me an interesting question which was; "If Trithereon is the god of freedom and liberty why does he have a connection to Summoning which implies controlling or entrapment?" My answer was that rather than binding the summoned creatures to his will to serve him for Trithereon they are willing allies that come to help a servant of the Summoner through choice. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about that though ...


    Let's debate this one, good people! Happy

    -Lanthorn, of THE SUMMONER

    Note: In retrospect, perhaps this thread should be entitled, "Liberty vs. Summoning" instead! My fingers typed faster than my brain could keep pace. Confused
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:57 pm  

    Tritherions' special summoned critters are not thralls, but willing servants of Tritherion, who can summon them. They are not the equivalent of something summoned by a monster summoning spell. A clever DM would do well to devise ways in which various spells within servants of Tritherion have access to do something similar. That servants to create a whole new angle to even a simple monster summoning spell, or anything similar to it. Also, some summoning spells don't just bind a summoned creature against their will, but involve making a bargain with the summoned creature for it services. Play up that angle a bit- even with spells where it is not a factor, just so that it is in character for a follower of Tritherion who used such spells.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:09 pm  

    I can well understand your confusion why a God of Freedom, Liberty, and Individuality summons, and potentially binds, beasts to his aid. His priests have Animal Summoning spells as a direct influence of this, and at higher levels can possibly summon or conjure other creatures too! Also consider the conundrum that Trithereon also grants his priests access to Charm Person, thus manipulating the perceptions and desires of others.

    Your question is a great one, and one that my DM/fellow player and I have long debated.

    For the former, you can take Cebrion's justification and that the beasts are willing participants, for whatever reason. Perhaps Trithereon is quasi-druidic in nature. I believe I read somewhere in some author's (is that you, Rasgon?) written treatise that he was indeed a child of Beory, and preferred the wilderness and its beasts to the company of humans. Personally, even though it is a cool idea, I still am perplexed why a Power with his portfolio (Vengeance, Individuality, Freedom, Liberty) has animal servants, unless there is a kernel of 'truth' to this.

    As a random sidenote, a few nights ago, I was musing to myself before the oblivion of sleep took me...and I was wondering about just this quizzical topic. Why would Trithereon have animal minions to support his very human cause? After all, he is not a Power over the wilderness or elements in the fashion that you'd expect animals to come to his aid (such as Ehlonna, Beory, Obad-hai) or even agriculture, for that matter (Merikka, Phyton).

    And then, in my own chaotic fashion, I dissected his name...and it occurred to me that you can form two Latin/Greek words that make total sense: Tri - Therian. Of course, the English translation would thusly be "Three Beasts"! Exclamation Cool I do not know if this is even remotely what the creator (Gygax?) of this Power had in mind, but the biologist in me finds it more than coincidental, and a wonderful explanation. For does Trithereon not have three beasts to aid Him in battle against his foes: Nemoud the Hound, Carolk the Sea Lizard, and Harrus the Falcon? Happy

    Of course, that doesn't really explain the 'why' aspect, but justifies the name itself.

    As for Charming and binding others to his will, or to those who serve Him (his clergy), that is another topic of debate. It does seem at odds with his dogma, after all. The only justification for this would be that, given his Chaotic Good alignment, perhaps Trithereon has a "The Ends Justify the Means" philosophy, where the liberties and freedoms of others, particularly those whom you deem as enemies, can be abridged. At least, that is how my DM/fellow player and I have interpreted it. Thusly, a cleric had better be sparing in its application, and not Charming people left and right for personal gain, but rather, to further the aims and goals of the faith. For instance, Charming a guardsman (who represents law and order) for easier access into (or out of) a city, or to gather information, may be permissible, but Charming an innkeeper to reduce the rate of room and board (unless that innkeeper was trying to 'fleece' you), would not be.

    As you can see, Wolfling, I have much to say on this topic, perhaps because Trithereon is one of my favorite Powers, and one that I hold dear, both as a player and a DM. After all, is it not the Rune of Pursuit that I (currently) use as my Avatar? And of all the Powers, it is one that I would consider to be near and dear to my own personal heart (along with Fharlanghn and a few others).

    -Lanthorn


    Last edited by Lanthorn on Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:11 pm  

    A final thought:

    Now, here is a parting shot, and perhaps the impetus to create a separate thread of similar discussion: "Why does Heironeous, a God of Honor and Chivalry, permit the use of Charm?!" Shocked I find that one equally perplexing...but that is stuff for another thread. Wink

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:15 am  

    Thanks Lanthorn for starting this thread off!

    Trithereon, like many of the deities of 'Common' origin really interests me too.

    With regards to the summoning I agree with Cebrion's assessment that the summoned creatures are willing allies and therefore misuse of summoning spells would be greatly frowned upon by Trithereon. This summoned allies concept ties in with the theme of Trithereon having his three bestial companions who willingly aid him.

    As for the Charm domain, I was confused by this too but justified it by looking at the spells on the list. Many spells are about freeing victims from entrapment of mind and body (Remove Fear, Cloak of Bravery, Free Action). As the god of liberty and independance I also don't believe Trithereon would deny the other spells to his priests but would leave it up to them if they felt their use was in keeping with their god's ethos (clearly they aren't). Those using charm spells would quickly find their poor judgement found themselves at odds with the aims of Trithereon.

    The origins of Trithereon really interest me too. I've always gotten a Flan vibe from him. His symbol is a triskelion, an ancient motif that is closely associated with the Celtic mythos. The number three is also significant - three sacred weapons (sword, spear, sceptre), thee bestial allies (hound, hawk and sea lizard), the triskelion (a three-legged motif) and as Cebrion pointed out even his name Tritherion has a connection to the number three. The vibe I get is very druidic. Which could also help explain the animal summoning. Could Trithereon be part of the Flan pantheon, his association lost in history.


    There are some other interesting connections I get about Trithereon;

    For me Trithereon has connections to the Celtic god Lugh. Lugh was skilled with the spear and had a hound companion.

    The triskelion is a symbol associated with the Celtic sea-god Manannan mac Lir.

    Manannan gifted a sword named Fragarach (ring any bells?) to Lugh.

    Trithereon has a connection to the sea via Karalk the Sea-Lizard.


    All these things get my mind racing, especially when I think about Fragarach. A CG sword originally fashioned for 'a demi-god of elsewhen' and evetually passing into the World of Greyhawk. Could Trithereon be connected to Fragarach somehow? And why is Fragarach (a sword that deals damage to a Lawful person holding it) belong in the hands of the Paladin Lord Prince Thrommel? This is probably worthy of a whole new thread!

    Could Trithereon be originally from another World? Or perhaps he was gifted the sword or retrieved it (explaining a sojourn away from Oerth and why his link to the Flan pantheon was forgotten)? Perhaps Trithereon was sponsored to godhood by a now forgotten Flan deity of the sea (of which there seem to be none) as adopted that deity's triskelion symbol as his own?
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:28 am  

    Wolfling,

    Clearly you have done your historical homework. Happy I cannot intelligently speak to the statements you have made with respect to Celtic like references or origins, but I can offer that with his Major spherical access to Astral spells, priests of the Summoner are permitted to venture to other planes of existence, presumably to bring their enemies to justice. Odd that Heironeous, whom I consider to be the Lawful counterpart of Trithereon, does not. I guess there must be some grander explanation why Trithereon is a 'plane hopper' to track down his quarry.

    What I do find odd, even counterintuitive (to me), is the blatant lack of Divination (even minor access) to spells that would clearly aid Trithereon's priests in their 'divine work.' This includes spells such as Know Alignment, something clearly helpful in uncovering the seed of evil in one's enemies. Thusly, I have made a House Rule addition by granting clerics of the Summoner with Minor Access to Divination.

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:48 am  

    I spent a few years at uni studying myths and legends so it's a bit of a passion of mine!

    Good point about the Astral sphere - it really fits in with a possible connection to another world.

    I'd never really thought about the lack of Divination spells. Perhaps spells like Know Alignment and some other divinations pry into the personal freedom of people too much and risk the priest judging someone on their nature and not their deeds? Divination spells would be useful in pursuing a priest's mark but are they essential enough that they need access to that Domain?
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:41 am  

    I've never taken a class specifically about mythology in college. Too bad for me. Sounds like a great class. We do have one at my high school where I teach, though.

    I wouldn't say that Divination is a requirement, but considering Trithereon's main focus, and the fact that he will bind and hold a perpetrator to his will and force that person to answer questions truthfully makes me question the wisdom or practicality for NOT granting his clerics at least Minor in Divination. It also gives priests the following VERY useful spells in their quest to bring 'justice' to the lands: Detect Poison, Detect Snares & Pits, Locate Animals/Plants (crossover with Plant and Animal spheres), Augury, Detect Charm (potential Charm crossover), Find Traps, Speak with Animals (OBVIOUS usefulness here!), Locate Object, Speak with Dead (also QUITE helpful...crossover with Necromantic sphere)...and that is just from the Player's Handbook. It doesn't even cover the few additions from Tome of Magic and the Options: Spells & Magic books.

    Lanthorn

    FYI: I think that Detect Evil and Detect Magic are now in the All sphere.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:35 am  

    Aaaah see I maybe have a different angle on Trithereon.

    To me his pursuit of perpetrators is more reactive than proactive. His priests are less detective and more avenger.

    Rather than seeking out crimes to prevent before they happen I see his priests stepping up and helping those who are already victims. I could see the usefulness of detecting lies in this situation (to make sure that the victim is telling the truth) but it's still don't think it's enough to warrant the Divination sphere.

    Plus for me most of their time is spent working against oppressive regimes and helping the weak learn to defend themselves - divinations aren't usually needed for such things.

    Out of interest which areas do you see Trithereon as being most popular in?
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:16 pm  

    I see priests of the Summoner acting in a variety of ways. Sometimes it is to avenge wrongs, vigilante style. Other times it is to actively root out and destroy growing evil. To me, they espouse a 'The ends justify the means' and Hammarabi's Code of "An Eye for an Eye" philosophy. I don't play them nice and cuddly, but people you don't want to cross. They are your best friends, but worst enemies. They are likely to shoot first and ask questions later if pressed into a corner. They hunt down brigands and bandits, murderers and rapists, crooked officials and those who oppress the common man and woman. Humanoids are also fair game. I play 'gritty' Trithereonites who literally take the law into their own hands.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, one of my favorite supplements, states that the faith of Trithereon grew during and after the Wars because of the strife, misery, pain, and suffering so many felt. Areas wracked by the brunt of the Wars would have a large following, including the Shield Lands, Furyondy (and thus, come into direct conflict with the Hieroneans), Nyrondy, and also the Wild Coast regions. The original boxed set claims that he held a large following in the Yeomanry, too.

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:47 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Tritherions' special summoned critters are not thralls, but willing servants of Tritherion, who can summon them. They are not the equivalent of something summoned by a monster summoning spell...


    -IIRC, AD&D1 and AD&D2 never hashed out where the summoned critters come from. D&D 3.5 makes it clear that they are on tap from another plane. You can even get the same ones, if you choose.


    Lanthorn wrote:
    ... "Why does Heironeous, a God of Honor and Chivalry, permit the use of Charm?!" Shocked I find that one equally perplexing...but that is stuff for another thread...


    -He allows magic, period, which could be considered "unchivalrous". If a Heironeon wizard can toast people with a fireball, why not use a charm?


    Wolfling wrote:
    ...To me his pursuit of perpetrators is more reactive than proactive. His priests are less detective and more avenger...


    ...His symbol is "pursuit", not "premeption".
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:12 pm  

    My understanding about "summoning" is that the creatures, monsters, or beasts are brought forth from a distance to the priest's (or wizard's) location and travel to you. In "conjuration" magics they are typically brought from another location or plane of existence and "POOF!" suddenly appear.

    Ex: Animal Summoning: The beasts come from afar, hearing your magical call.

    Conjure Animals: They suddenly appear in front of you, as if gated.

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:34 am  

    Good point about the Rune of Pursuit JDG but I'm not sure that being reactive as opposed to proactive doesn't diminish the concept of pursuit as the pursuit of folk who have committed evil acts is just as valid as pursuing evil folk who havent actually commited a wrong yet.


    I definitely like your gritty approach to Trithereon Lanthorn but as a Good deity I'm not sure how thoroughly he would embrace the 'end justifies the means'. I suppose as long as the means weren't evil. However it also depends on the alignment of his priests. A CN priest is likely to be much more 'gritty' in his methods than a CG one!

    Really, Trithereon's portfolio sums it up; Liberty, Individuality, Retribution and Self-Defence

    Liberty and Individuality. The right of the individual to pursue their own path. I don't believe that Trithereon would agree with hunting down and killing creatures just because they were evil or *could* commit an evil act in the future. That is a form of oppression in itself. That is why he teaches Self-Defence, so that folk can defend themselves against harm, reactive vs proactive. When an evil or oppressive act *has* been commited *then* the priests tirelessly pursues their mark until vengeance has been exacted BUT there needs to have been a wrong committed for Retribution and revenge to be called for in the first place. I think it also worth noting that as a good deity I don't think retribution needs to involve killing. One of the concepts of retributive justice is "Let the punishment fit the crime".

    You might think I'm saying I believe priests of Trithereon sit around twiddling their thumbs until there is a wrong to be avenged. Where they can be proactive is helping teach people self-defence, scouting out areas gaining knowledge of threats to better prepare locals to defend themselves and campaigning to help people throw off tyranny and oppression.
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:10 am  

    I think your interpretations of the actions of Trithereon's priests are fine. However, one of the concepts I've been exploring as of late have been less defined, cut and dry, actions that make people 'Good' and others 'Evil.' This could definitely become the beginning of a new thread, so let me consolidate it to the purpose of this one.

    In sum, even 'Good' people can do wrong, whether accidentally or purposefully. I turn to the major religious conflicts of our own reality to support this notion. Commonly it is based on the perceptions, the reality, of the individual, the community and society at large, and these are often religious or philosophical in nature. I am sure that "most" people will agree that there are clear cut demarcations of Good vs. Evil (don't cut the throats of babies, for instance), but I think that we may be able to agree there are MANY shades of grey in between.

    I find myself veering off course...let me return to the main point... Happy

    Priests of Trithereon follow their conscience and religious dogma irrespective of written (mortal) laws. They don't let these petty things bind them to do what they feel and perceive as 'right.' The ONLY laws that matter are those tenets of Trithereon.

    As with any religious affiliation, and this one would be loosely organized so as not to be encumbered by constraining rules and regulations (instituted by the local govt. NOT the church itself, which I am sure has its own hierarchy...after all, they are NOT anarchists!), there will be priests who espouse one aspect of Trithereon's dogma over another. Maybe one priest is more into training the locals in self-defense whereas another could be an active bounty hunter, seeking criminals, bandits, and brigands. Perhaps another cleric is an animal handler (dogs and horses, perhaps even falcons), leaning towards the Summoner's uses of beasts to do his will. And so on and so forth.

    In my mind, clerics of Trithereon, often portrayed in nearly each and every guide as 'hot-headed', probably, for the most part, are knee-jerk in their religious rage. You cross one, and look out. For sure, some crimes against Trithereon and his flock are of a lesser magnitude, and won't elicit a violent, "I'm gonna kill you" response. But Vengeance is one of His portfolio aspects, so watch out! Other crimes, however, will bring the full wrath of his clerics upon you, those being of the most heinous nature.

    As for actively rooting out Evil, I have to agree with JDG on this one. Just as some clerics may stay at home, tending the fires so to speak (and to protect their charges), others, like my own current PC (Belisarius Morgenthwain by name), are active rovers, seeking out those who would oppress or harm the 'innocent.' I seriously doubt that any self-respecting cleric of Trithereon would not hunt down any humanoids in the area, for it is the (misconception?) belief of (most) humans, through stories and personal experience, that all humanoids are threats to their own lives, and are rapacious, evil, and murderous. This is where ideals of religion and ethnocentrism come into play, philosophically of course, but that, again, is the stuff for a separate thread. Wink

    Look to the Summoner's spheres of access, and you will note they have Travelers (minor). To me, that highly supports the notion of active hunters and protectors rather than a more halfling way of defense (stay put, shore up your barriers, set your traps, and wait). The best defense is a good offense, after all! Evil Grin Root out and destroy Evil before it finds itself at your very doorstep. Destroy it before it can grow too powerful.

    Of course, this is just my interpretation of Trithereon and the roles of his clergy. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. I won't take it personally. Wink

    -Lanthorn, Servant of the Summoner
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    Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:36 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Good point about the Rune of Pursuit JDG but I'm not sure that being reactive as opposed to proactive doesn't diminish the concept of pursuit as the pursuit of folk who have committed evil acts is just as valid as pursuing evil folk who havent actually commited a wrong yet...


    -Actually, that's what I was getting at. "Pursuit" implies retaliation for an act which has already occured, I think. But "already occurred" requires interpretation (see below).

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Priests of Trithereon follow their conscience and religious dogma irrespective of written (mortal) laws...


    -"Dogma"? Among chaotics?! Razz

    OK, I know what you mean.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    As with any religious affiliation, and this one would be loosely organized so as not to be encumbered by constraining rules and regulations (instituted by the local govt. NOT the church itself, which I am sure has its own hierarchy...after all, they are NOT anarchists!)...


    -Hmmm... I think a few of them could be. Why not?

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ... Maybe one priest is more into training the locals in self-defense whereas another could be an active bounty hunter, seeking criminals, bandits, and brigands. Perhaps another cleric is an animal handler (dogs and horses, perhaps even falcons), leaning towards the Summoner's uses of beasts to do his will. And so on and so forth...


    -Yeah, each clergyman would probably find his own way (with advice from the more experienced/attuned). The Roman Catholic church, which I'd put in the "Lawful" category, certainly has different ways for its clergy to minister, so Trithereon's clergy certainly would.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ... Just as some clerics may stay at home, tending the fires so to speak (and to protect their charges), others, like my own current PC (Belisarius Morgenthwain by name), are active rovers, seeking out those who would oppress or harm the 'innocent...


    -The Lone... Ranger! Laughing

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ... I seriously doubt that any self-respecting cleric of Trithereon would not hunt down any humanoids in the area, for it is the (misconception?) belief of (most) humans, through stories and personal experience, that all humanoids are threats to their own lives, and are rapacious, evil, and murderous...


    -I think an on-going war with humanoids would include the assumption that the humanoids (goblins, say) have harmed the innocent in the past. I don't think a cleric of Trithereon would have to track down the four individual goblins who attacked a farm; they'd hit the tribe. Now, if the tribe had been on good behavior for a while, then that might be different. It would be unusual, but possible (unless you're in the "Goblins are born unalterably evil" school).
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    Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:58 am  

    I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion about Trithereon I must say and we certainly do seem to be encountering a whole bunch of spin off topics!

    The whole alignment discussion and what will a 'good' person do without compromising their alignment is a really interesting one.

    I think you nailed it on the head when you talked about different priests focusing on different aspects. Individualism is important to Trithereon and so I can't imagine that he enforces one way to follow his tenets, leaving things up to the individual priests to do things how they wish. Even within the Church I'd imagine there was a huge amount of flexibility in how they go about pursuing their Faith.

    Having read your comments I think that I would refine my thoughts to as follows;

    Despite our discussion I still feel that in terms of the commiting of a violation against a person's inherent rights or against their Faith, priests of Trithereon are reactive. I feel that retribution needs a specific wrong to be avenged and that pre-empting a wrong on the basis of a being's nature is against the Good nature of Trithereon and his belief in the freedom. Of all the gods Trithereon is one I htink that would judge people not by what race they were or place they were from but by the individual merits and actions.

    However, where I think I shall change my tune is that when it comes to dealing with oppression and tyranny the Faith of Trithereon is indeed very proactive. If oppression is happening the wrong must have already happened and that needs avenging. Those already involved in oppression are already guilty by their very own actions.

    This also kind of ties in with what you were saying about alignment Lanthorn. I'd imagine that to a priest of Trithereon oppression is an evil act whether it is commited by a good, neutral or evil aligned person and the actions of that oppressor judged accordingly. An over zealous priest of St.Cuthbert or Pholtus has as much to fear as on of Hextor for example.

    One of the things I like about gods like Trithereon is that in a world dominated by nobility and powerful magics they have the backs of the common person and lets face it the world of Greyhawk is full of misery and oppression for the people within!

    As this discussion has also highlighted, it's great to hear other people's feelings on these topics and to challenge your own thoughts with new perspectives (even if I sound stubborn in my thoughts sometimes!)
    GreySage

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    Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:23 am  

    Yes, the debate about alignment 'violations' and the like is a great one, especially where it applies to clerics and paladins. Thought for another thread at another time (mental note Wink ).

    I explored the idea of a Good vs. Good kind of concept recently in a campaign where a 'rogue' band loyal to Trithereon, and lead by a crusader of the Summoner, actively struck out against the militia of Greyhawk City in the Cairn Hills, citing the principle that the City is oppressive and corrupt. I got dreadfully tired of the stereotypical Good vs. Evil concept, and spun it on its head where I pitted factions against each other that aren't, technically, evil whatsoever. But to each other, they are! Happy

    As for duties of clerics within a Church, I cannot fully take the credit for that one. The supplement Bastion of Faith for Heironeous outlined this concept, and I 'borrowed' it for use in other faiths.

    -Lanthorn
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