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    Canonfire :: View topic - Ascended Mortals
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    Ascended Mortals
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:55 am  
    Ascended Mortals

    Does anyone have thoughts or ideas on which deities of the Flanaess were once mortal?

    Lord Hobie
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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:27 am  
    Re: Ascended Mortals

    lordhobie wrote:
    Does anyone have thoughts or ideas on which deities of the Flanaess were once mortal?

    Lord Hobie


    -Off the top of my head, Daern and Rudd are explicity mentioned as deities who are natives of the Flaneass. Murlynd (although he might just look like an Oeridian) might be a native, maybe Kelanen and Keoghtum. Mayaheine is from elsewhere, but asceneded.

    Iuz appears to be a native of the Flaneass, but probably a cambion (which isn't exactly "mortal", but isn't a detity, either).
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:56 am  

    In addition to those listed by jamesdglick:

    Zagyg
    Vecna
    Nozur (of Marvelous Pigment fame)
    Quaal (of the Feather Tokens)

    and most of the other Demi-gods and Hero-deities listed in the GreyWiki, here: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=List_of_Greyhawk_deities#Deities_of_unknown_rank

    SirXaris
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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:11 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    In addition to those listed by jamesdglick:

    Zagyg
    Vecna
    Nozur (of Marvelous Pigment fame)
    Quaal (of the Feather Tokens)...


    -DOH! How'd I miss Zagyg?

    Joramy too, IIRC.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:16 pm  

    Most demigods and quasi-deities, including Zagyg, Zuoken, Wastri, Quaal, Kyuss, Vathris, Krovis, Nazarn, Gendwar Argrim, Ye'Cind, Gadhelyn, Diancastra, Fionnghuala, Roykyn, Nebelun, Vecna, Keoghtom, Heward, Azor'alq, Al'Akbar, Daoud, Johydee, Daern, Murlynd, Nolzur, Mayaheine, and Iuz, were mortal at some point. Mouqol was once mortal. Kelanen might conceivably be some pre-human entity, like a solar who lost his wings.

    Those gods who are said to be brothers or cousins were probably never mortal. For example, Fharlanghn, Celestian, Heironeous, Hextor, Zilchus, Kurell, and Merikka seem statistically unlikely to have been mortal. Heironeous and Hextor are said to (with their dead brother Stratis) be the sons of a goddess, Alia, though I read a speculative fan-myth that had Heironeous and Hextor as aasimar and tiefling half-brothers who became gods in entirely separate events.

    Atroa, Sotillon, Wenta, Velnius, and Telchur are all siblings and children of Procan (some say the wind gods were children of Velnius instead), so it's likely they were never mortal. Merikka is their cousin, so she probably wasn't either.

    The Suel deities were all (except possibly for Vatun and Dalt) created by Lendor or are descended from gods created by Lendor (Kord is the son of Phaulkon and Syrul), so none of them were mortal. Vatun and Dalt may have been mortal at some point.

    The Touv deities are all nature spirits. None of them were mortal.

    The Olman deities were never mortal.

    Rudd was once mortal, but there's a hint in Dragon #265 that her father might be Norebo.

    Saint Cuthbert is believed to have once been mortal.

    I think Trithereon was likely a mortal hero at some point. He reminds me of a combination of Cuchulain, Rama, and Michael Moorcock's hero Corum.

    It's hard for me to imagine that gods of nature or primal concepts like Pelor, Nerull, Obad-hai, Boccob, Istus, Beory, Lendor, Joramy, Geshtai, Incabulos, Ehlonna, or Cyndor were ever mortal. Of that group, I think it's somewhat possible that Boccob might have once been a mortal wizard, though probably a prehuman one.

    Joramy could have been mortal at some point, but she seems too elemental to me. I don't think the fact that she helped create the Nightingale of Queen Ehlissa means she was necessarily mortal at the time.

    Tsolorandril was evidently some kind of alien, possibly a Fraal.

    I don't really consider the gods from the Book of Vile Darkness or Book of Exalted Deeds to be Greyhawk deities as such, but I don't think any of them are likely to have been mortal, except perhaps the Xammux. And maybe Rallaster and Phieran.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:59 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    ... Kelanen might conceivably be some pre-human entity, like a solar who lost his wings...


    -I thought there was a place on Oerth where Kelanen went though part of his ascendacy process (I forget where). That doesn't neccessarily rule out that he may have been solar (or something), but it doesn't "feel" right to me. FWIW.

    rasgon wrote:
    ... Saint Cuthbert is believed to have once been mortal...


    -DOH!

    Someone once did an (non-canonical) article tracing the Northumbrian saint's failing out with Christianty and his migration to Oerth.

    rasgon wrote:
    ... Joramy could have been mortal at some point, but she seems too elemental to me. I don't think the fact that she helped create the Nightingale of Queen Ehlissa means she was necessarily mortal at the time...


    -I thought I read that somewhere. Maybe an Oerth Journal article?
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:39 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -I thought there was a place on Oerth where Kelanen went though part of his ascendacy process (I forget where). That doesn't neccessarily rule out that he may have been solar (or something), but it doesn't "feel" right to me. FWIW.


    I'm not aware of any evidence that his trial took place on Oerth, but his original description in Dragon #71 said "It is said that he was once as comely as any deity, but in order to become the Prince of Swords, Kelanen had to undergo a series of challenges and tests which resulted in his disfigurement. His visage bears a long, silvery scar from eye to chin..."

    If he was originally as handsome as a god, he may have been something nonhuman, perhaps celestial. Or perhaps not.

    It seems possible that his tests took place in the demiplane beyond the Moonarch of Sehanine, since that's dedicated to challenges and tests. Normally only elves are allowed through the Moonarch, and Kelanen doesn't seem to be one, but perhaps he underwent the tests before the elven pantheon took control of the demiplane, or perhaps the fact that he powered his way through despite being the wrong species explains why he was horribly scarred. The silver hue of the scar might hint at an association with Sehanine Moonbow.

    Maybe the previous Prince of Swords was an elf (maybe the previous prince was Tethrin Veralde, elven god of bladesingers), and Kelanen had to defeat him in a duel.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -I thought I read that somewhere. Maybe an Oerth Journal article?


    The article on Joramy in Oerth Journal #11 doesn't mention her ever being mortal. Oerth Journal #16 says she was a demigoddess at the time of the Nightingale's creation, though she has since ascended to greater heights.

    Tal Meta's article on Joramy (for his RuneQuest campaign) said that "Joramy is the daughter of Beory and Pelor, and the wife of Rao. In mythology, she stands between her parents, child of Earth and Fire, and represents 'the angry Oerth,' who must be placated lest her anger consume everything in flame." In the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer she was the estranged wife of Zodal instead (obviously, Tal Meta's writeup isn't canon).

    For what it's worth (I've been searching my hard drive for old files), here's Tal Meta's take on Flan mythology, originally posted to the Greytalk mailing list:

    Tal Meta wrote:
    Before the Dawn, there was Beory Earth Mother. Alone and unfulfilled, she brought out from herself Pelor and Nerull, the powers of Light and Darkness.

    Beory would have taken both to her breast, but the two brothers could not dwell together. They fought, and in the end the only peace they knew was when but one of them ruled the sky, and so we have day and night.

    For many years after that, there was peace in the world. Beory and Pelor knew one another, and in due time she bore him many children; first born were Obad Hai of the Wilds & Berai of the Homestead, soon followed by Rao the Serene & Joramy the Quarreler. Next came Allitur the Proper & Lirr the Poet, and finally Zodal the Merciful & Myhriss the beautiful. On surface of the Oerth, the flowering of life mimicked the Divine; animals and plants abounded, growing wild and unfettered.

    Far from Beory's Court, Nerull brooded alone. In his mother's demesne, Light and Life flowed like wine. Lost in thought, he reached out his hand, and crushed the life from a single deer. As he stared at the lifeless beast, he laughed, long and hard, and he knew what he must do...
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:53 pm  

    Kelanen (In his write up in Slavers is described as having "crossed the border between the mortal and the divine".

    Raxivort was also supposed to be a mortal xvart before his ascension, I think.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:07 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Raxivort was also supposed to be a mortal xvart before his ascension, I think.


    Hmm... He was a xvart created by Grazzt on his plane in the Abyss. Does that make him a mortal xvart or a demonic one? Confused

    SirXaris
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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:12 pm  

    For the most part, I have to completely concur with the honorable Rasgon's assessment of this particular situation.

    However, I will turn to my own trove of resources to offer what information that I can. I will start with the original boxed set World of Greyhawk and its contents:

    Pages 33-37 of the Glossography mentions the Quasi-Deities (Hero-Deities) of Oerth who likely started as mortals but have risen above such status with the assistance of various Powers: Daern, Heward, Johydee, Kelanen, Keoghtom, Murlynd, Nolzur, Quall, and Tuerny.

    Kelanen is noted on pages 36-37, and it is written that he is a "Hero-Deity." He is also mentioned in the Slavers module, too, as Wolfling noted.

    Any being classified as a Greater, Intermediate, or Lesser Power would not have started as a mortal.

    The Glossography, pages 37-48, gives information about various Powers, all intermingled from Demigod to Greater status, in alphabetical order. Not all Powers are represented.

    The Fantasy Setting book gives descriptions of the Powers in pages 62-78, starting with a list according to their status. It is fairly comprehensive.

    Demi-Gods would have, likely with the assistance of some True Power, and their own considerable individual power, along the way. Iuz, Merikka, Mayaheine, Al'Akbar, Rudd, Vecna, Wastri, Ye Cind, Zagyg, and Zuoken are examples.

    Hero-Deities are 'beneath' Demi-Gods in power.

    From the Ashes, Greyhawk Adventures, Living Grehawk Gazeteer, and Greyhawk: Player's Guide also have fairly good lists and demarcations of the various Powers and whether they are Greater, Intermediate, Lesser, or Demi- in status.

    I hope that helps,

    -Lanthorn
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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:47 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...Pages 33-37 of the Glossography mentions the Quasi-Deities (Hero-Deities) of Oerth who likely started as mortals but have risen above such status with the assistance of various Powers: Daern, Heward, Johydee, Kelanen, Keoghtom, Murlynd, Nolzur, Quall, and Tuerny...


    -Arggh!

    I got Joramy and Johydee mixed up. Entirley different. Oops. Embarassed Laughing
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:37 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    I will start with the original boxed set World of Greyhawk and its contents:...

    Pages 33-37 of the Glossography...

    Any being classified as a Greater, Intermediate, or Lesser Power would not have started as a mortal.


    True as far as this Glossography goes, but note that in later editions, Vecna is a lesser god and St. Cuthbert is an intermediate god.

    SirXaris
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    Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:53 pm  

    St. Cuthbert was a lesser god in the Glossography, and the 1st edition DMG implies he was once mortal. I think many lesser gods might have been mortal at one point (including, as I suggested above, Trithereon). Raxivort is a lesser deity, and Dragon #264 indicated he was once a mortal xvart in the Flanaess rather than a special creation of Graz'zt. In Monster Mythology, the gnomish god Nebelun the Meddler was a mortal gnome who became a lesser deity.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:07 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Any being classified as a Greater, Intermediate, or Lesser Power would not have started as a mortal.


    I see things a bit differently. I favour a "Gods Need Prayer Badly" view of things;

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly

    So for me, being a Greater, Intermediate or Lesser Power doesn't rule out a mortal origin. It's all down to how popular that Power has become. So for example St.Cuthbert, although in the Glossography is a Lesser Power, his fight against Iuz has found him a whole new bunch of followers and influence elevating him to Intermediate status.

    Having said all that, I don't see very many of the gods having mortal origins, most I imagine having been things like elementals, celestials, demons, devils, even fey.
    Paladin

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    Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:10 am  

    All hail lordhobie
    a novice with a good thread question... keep 'em coming!!!
    Its been great read sofar.
    Paladin

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    Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:50 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:

    Demi-Gods would have, likely with the assistance of some True Power, and their own considerable individual power, along the way. Iuz, Merikka, Mayaheine, Al'Akbar, Rudd, Vecna, Wastri, Ye Cind, Zagyg, and Zuoken are examples.
    -Lanthorn

    *Rubbing Chin* This leads me to a quandry Lanthorn my friend....
    A 'sponsor" geneology of sorts.....

    Iuz= Probably Graz'zt & Iggwilv.. but don't know whether we can clasifiy either of those as "True Powers" since as was mentioned above not sure if cambion applies.... ????

    Merikka= is a cousin of Velnius, Atroa, Sotillion, Wenta, and Telchur. She reports to Cyndor.

    Mayaheine= is a servant and paladin of Pelor

    Al'Akbar= Gary Holian's 2003 "Paladins of Greyhawk" article introduced the name Al'Asran, "a being bathed in sunlight", as Al'Akbar's patron

    Rudd= Olidammara, and Norebo

    Vecna= Was IMC always opposed to this particular "ascension" .. Prefered to think of him as striving for that but always out of reach.. this thread has me thinking that even more.... but for sake of the debate, if a mortal (even a powerful one) needs a sponsor to "ascend", who was his? Big T?

    Wastri= Suloise god ???

    Ye Cind= Corellon

    Zagyg=Was IMC always opposed to this particular "ascension" too .. Prefered to think of him as striving for that but always out of reach.. A chaotic Mage who managed to "tap" abit of lightning in a bottle and trap the gods... just not sure that makes him one.... but for sake of the debate, if a mortal (even a powerful one) needs a sponsor to "ascend", who was his? Boccob in Dragon #338 but don't recall that as a sponsor

    Zuoken= is a servant power of the goddess Xan Yae
    Paladin

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    Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:00 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    Any being classified as a Greater, Intermediate, or Lesser Power would not have started as a mortal.


    I see things a bit differently. I favour a "Gods Need Prayer Badly" view of things;

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly

    So for me, being a Greater, Intermediate or Lesser Power doesn't rule out a mortal origin. It's all down to how popular that Power has become. So for example St.Cuthbert, although in the Glossography is a Lesser Power, his fight against Iuz has found him a whole new bunch of followers and influence elevating him to Intermediate status.

    Having said all that, I don't see very many of the gods having mortal origins, most I imagine having been things like elementals, celestials, demons, devils, even fey.

    Gotta lean with Wolfling on this one..... else what purpose does prayer / worship serve? IMC I am ALWAYS telling my PCs... where does the power come from??....
    IMC there is ONE source of "power" and the Gods (in varying degrees based on thier "Level") disperse that "down" as divinations to the masses....
    OR as Magic goes.... it "skips" the gods.. and taps the source... thus the requirement for research and study and arcane spell failure...

    To me this covers the wax and wain of god popularities, the reasoning why the Arcane can mimic Divine spells, and the why Zagyg could trap a god... without being one...
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:05 am  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Iuz= Probably Graz'zt & Iggwilv.. but don't know whether we can clasifiy either of those as "True Powers" since as was mentioned above not sure if cambion applies.... ????


    Iuz's parents are Graz'zt and Iggwilv. Graz'zt was effectively a lesser god in power, per 1st edition, while Iggwilv is something of a quasideity. Iuz wasn't born divine, but earned it himself with the Soul Husks and the faith of his followers.

    Quote:
    Al'Akbar= Gary Holian's 2003 "Paladins of Greyhawk" article introduced the name Al'Asran, "a being bathed in sunlight", as Al'Akbar's patron


    For what it's worth, Gary intended Al'Asran as an alias of Pelor.

    Quote:
    Rudd= Olidammara, and Norebo


    Olidammara was her patron; Norebo might have been her father, but probably didn't play a direct role in her ascension.

    Quote:
    Vecna= Was IMC always opposed to this particular "ascension" .. Preferred to think of him as striving for that but always out of reach.. this thread has me thinking that even more.... but for sake of the debate, if a mortal (even a powerful one) needs a sponsor to "ascend", who was his? Big T?


    Mok'slyk, if anyone. Although it's very possible that Mok'slyk is just a delusion of Vecna's maddened mind. I don't think mortals necessarily need divine patrons for divine ascension.

    Quote:
    Wastri= Suloise god ???


    Most likely Ramenos, though probably unintentionally. Wastri transformed after exploring some old ruins in the Vast Swamp; these were likely an ancient temple to Ramenos from the era when the ancestors of bullywugs were civilized and powerful. Wastri became invested with some of Ramenos's power, though (because Ramenos is mostly asleep in recent aeons) not his guiding intellect. Wastri's own bigoted mind was only able to incompletely comprehend what had happened to him and became obsessed with the proto-bullywug sense of racial superiority without being able to acknowledge that he had become something other than human.

    In any case, I don't think it's possible that the ruins were associated with a Suel deity (there being no ancient Suloise civilization in the Vast Swamp). It could be some ancient Flan thing, but it's most likely something prehuman, and Ramenos seems the most plausible candidate.

    Quote:
    Zagyg=Was IMC always opposed to this particular "ascension" too .. Prefered to think of him as striving for that but always out of reach.. A chaotic Mage who managed to "tap" abit of lightning in a bottle and trap the gods... just not sure that makes him one.... but for sake of the debate, if a mortal (even a powerful one) needs a sponsor to "ascend", who was his? Boccob in Dragon #338 but don't recall that as a sponsor


    Zagyg is a servant of Boccob. That's been true since the character was created, and it's why Greyhawk Ruins is full of statues of the Uncaring One. Boccob helped sponsor Zagig's apotheosis, although it must be said that Zagig did most of the work himself (which is appropriate, since Boccob is too uncaring to help someone who won't help himself). Arguably, the imprisoned nine deities sponsored him, most of them unwillingly.

    The Olman gods are all descendants of Ometeotl.

    The Touv gods are all descendants of Uvot.

    The Suel gods are all descendants of Lendor.

    Chitza-Atlan is probably a servant of Mictlantecuhtli.

    Kyuss was a priest of Nerull (though he did much of the work of apotheosis himself). Mellifleur may have accidentally stolen some of the power intended for Kyuss's apotheosis, which would explain why the process went wrong and Kyuss ended up trapped in an obelisk for 2,000 years.

    Daern was sponsored by Delleb.

    Daoud was sponsored by Istus.

    Presumably one or both of Merikka's parents were siblings of Procan. Here's an example of where the Oeridian pantheon has an implied set of "elder gods" that we know nothing about. In theory, Merikka's father could be Pelor/Sol, if you want to assume that he's Procan's brother in Oeridian mythology.

    Heward is allied with Celestian and Fharlanghn, though I assume he became a god on his own after creating his Mystical Organ.

    Johydee was a priestess, but her patron is unknown. Given her neutral good alignment, Pelor seems like a strong possibility. Though she was Oeridian, I can't rule out Istus or Xan Yae, or perhaps even Boccob.

    Kelanen's sponsor was probably Boccob (as patron of Balance), though Kelanen had to do most of the work himself as he went through a series of harrowing tests.

    Keoghtom's sponsor was Fharlanghn.

    Kuroth's sponsor was Olidammara.

    Murlynd's sponsor was Heironeous.

    Nazarn's sponsor was Kord.

    Tsolorandril was probably sponsored by Cyndor.

    Cyndor may have been sponsored or created by Lendor, or he may have traveled back in time and created himself. My current theory is that Cyndor is the same as the Mystaran Immortal Khoronus. He traveled to Oerth when he founded the City of the Gods with colonists from the Kingdom of Blackmoor, and sent back in time the artifact of time traveling
    his past self would use to achieve Immortality.

    Vathris seems to have become divine on his own.

    Krovis may have been sponsored by Trithereon.

    My theory is that Quaal was raised to quasi-divinity by Oberon and Titania of the Seelie Court as a reward for rescuing Fionnghuala.

    Fionnghuala was sponsored by the Seelie Court. granted divinity by Titania as a reward for defending Oberon.

    Diancastra and Hiatea were granted divinity by their father Annam.

    Zol Darklock may have been sponsored by Shad-Duan.

    Scahrossar is a sister of Olidammara.

    Raxivort became a god on his own (through the power of his followers' worship) after escaping with Graz'zt's treasure.

    Charmalaine was sponsored by Fharlanghn and Brandobaris.

    Roykyn was sponsored by Erythnul.

    Gadhelyn likely became quasi-divine with the aid of Fenmarel Mestarine.

    Gendwar Argrim was sponsored by Clangeddin Silverbeard.

    The derro gods Diirinka and Diinkarazan became divine after stealing magic from the illithid god Ilsensine.
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    Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:36 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Quote:
    Al'Akbar= Gary Holian's 2003 "Paladins of Greyhawk" article introduced the name Al'Asran, "a being bathed in sunlight", as Al'Akbar's patron


    For what it's worth, Gary intended Al'Asran as an alias of Pelor.


    Interesting and can see that.. as Al'Akbar is just a muslim variant of its own... any canon on this? or is it just from Thursday Night converse with Gary?
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:57 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Interesting and can see that.. as Al'Akbar is just a muslim variant of its own... any canon on this? or is it just from Thursday Night converse with Gary?


    The latter, though any sun-drenched deity interested in healing people in the wake of the Invoked Devastation is going to be, at the least, very much like Pelor.

    In Oerth Journal #3, Pelor is called Al'Akbar (this being before the idea that Al'Akbar was the name of the priest who received the Cup and Talisman rather than the god who granted them was established as canon). In Erik Mona's "Baklunish Delights" article in that issue, Azor-alq is referred to as a servant of Al'Akbar, and the portal to Al'Akbar's realm is set directly opposite the portal to the realm of Tharoth the Reaper (the Baklunish Nerull). Then the article makes it explicit: "The followers of Zuoken remain on good terms with the priests of Al-Akbar, and this arrangement has followed them to the Flanaess, where the church of Pelor has acted as one of their greatest benefactors." With Al'Akbar established as the name of the priest instead, the Baklunish Pelor was renamed Al'Asran.

    Azor'alq should also be a servant of Al'Asran/Pelor.
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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:10 am  

    Great stuff, everyone! Many thanks. Happy

    Who would be a good sponsor for Trithereon? Possibly Pelor?

    Lord Hobie
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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:30 am  

    lordhobie wrote:
    Great stuff, everyone! Many thanks. Happy

    Who would be a good sponsor for Trithereon? Possibly Pelor?

    Lord Hobie


    there is several reference sources relating to Trithereon, though (none to my knowledge) define a "patron". This would further maintain his "individuallity" disposition.... If you feel you need one, Pelor could fit, or if you wished a more "woody / nature" perspective, Ehlonna / Ehlenestra might serve your purpose.
    For details on most GH Deities see here
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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:31 am  

    I had the idea that Trithereon was the son of Velnius and a mortal woman (in the model of ancient Greek heroes). Procan might be a good choice, too, if you think he should be more like Theseus than Perseus. His companions (a hound, falcon, and sea lizard) might indicate a relationship to the god of storm and sea, and his chaotic temperament might be in part a result of the wild sea-god's blood.

    It's notable that he isn't really connected to any one culture, though. He's not any more Oeridian than he is Suloise or, for that matter, elven. Among the Suloise gods, Phaulkon would be a good choice, and among the elves perhaps Corellon Larethian.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:02 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    I had the idea that Trithereon was the son of Velnius and a mortal woman (in the model of ancient Greek heroes). Procan might be a good choice, too, if you think he should be more like Theseus than Perseus. His companions (a hound, falcon, and sea lizard) might indicate a relationship to the god of storm and sea, and his chaotic temperament might be in part a result of the wild sea-god's blood.

    It's notable that he isn't really connected to any one culture, though. He's not any more Oeridian than he is Suloise or, for that matter, elven. Among the Suloise gods, Phaulkon would be a good choice, and among the elves perhaps Corellon Larethian.

    All of the "common" gods are a bit of puzzler. I'm tempted to explain them as aliases for gods worshiped on other parts of Oerth, much as the Flan Pelor is known as Al'Asran by the Baklunish.

    If Trithereon was begot by another god, Ehlonna would help justify his affinity with such a wide variety of animals. Both Ehlonna and Trithereon have a following among rangers, Ehlonna gets along well with chaotic (elven) deities, and Ehlonna is called "The Huntress" while Trithereon's symbol is the rune of pursuit.

    Velnius is a possible choice. I would be hesitant to add Trithereon to the Suel family tree simply because Lakofka has fleshed that pantheon out so exhaustively. That said, the obscure and chaotic god Akwamon (seas and storms) is a possibility because so little has been written about him. Akwamon would also also help explain two of Thrithereon's animal companions instead of just one like Velnius and Phaulkon. Finally, Kord has sired so many godlings that it would be easy to add one more.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:02 pm  

    I suppose I may be the only poster here who sees Trithereon as inherently Divine in nature, and NOT of any mortal bloodline. To me, he is the product of the Greater Powers, perhaps a joining of Beory with Pelor. I agree that he and Ehlonna have much in common...perhaps siblings?

    -Lanthorn of the Summoner
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:10 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    All of the "common" gods are a bit of puzzler. I'm tempted to explain them as aliases for gods worshiped on other parts of Oerth, much as the Flan Pelor is known as Al'Asran by the Baklunish.


    I interpret the common gods as deities who multiple cultures have adopted into their mythology. Some, like Rudd and Zagyg, have come into being since the Great Migrations, while others, like Incabulos, may have been known to all peoples since the dawn of time. Different cultures may have different explanations for common gods, giving them different ancestors in their theogonies or perhaps explaining them as visitors from elsewhere.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:44 pm  

    Oh, I forgot that I had an origin story for Trithereon in my rakshasa post:

    Quote:
    For many generations - perhaps centuries - the rakshasas ruled unopposed, treating humanity as slaves and cattle. But then Ravanna stole the bride of an exiled human prince, and this prince gathered together armies from three nations of virtuous beasts to slay Ravanna and win back his bride. After many trials, Ravanna was struck through the heart by the prince's blessed spear and the maharajah's spirit was banished to the plane of Acheron where it remains to this day. Because of the three beast kings who were his constant companions, the prince became known as Tripashu, which means "three beasts" in the Zahindi tongue. The people of the land came to worship their liberator as an avatar of the god of freedom and retribution, who had in various incarnations battled against oppressors since the beginning of time. Tripashu is known in other lands as well; the Oeridians call him Trithereon and have their own tales of his crusades against tyranny.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:13 am  

    For me, Trithereon has always had a very Celtic feel. In my mind I've also always connected him with the CG sword, Fragarach the Answerer with it's association of retribution. Fragarach was said to have originated in another world and so similarly I've always seen Trithereon as an arrival from elsewhere and the sword being brought with him. It wouldn't be the only case of deities arriving from other realms (Mayaheine, the Olman gods).

    As for the other deities of common origin I've usually seen many of them as gods of non-human origin that humans turned to as they were exposed to them.

    I don't use the the demi-human pantheons and so I attributed those deities listed as Common in the Guide to the World of Greyhawk as follows;

    Ehlonna, Lirr & Myrhiss were elven gods (Lirr & Myrhiss were originally listed as of a common origin)

    Ulaa & Bleredd - patrons of the dwarves & gnomes.

    Olidamarra the patron of the gnomes
    (I see the elves, dwarves & gnomes sharing a number of these gods from an early stage, mainly through the gnomes as a middle-man so to speak)

    Boccob - I've made him a kind of elder god but brought to more common worship by the greater of the giant races who named him Annam.

    St.Cuthbert - a mortal (possibly from another world), ascended to oppose the chaos of Iuz.

    Trithereon - an arrival from another world.

    As for Joramy, Ralishaz and Incabulos I haven't finalised my thoughts on their origins yet.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:25 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    For me, Trithereon has always had a very Celtic feel...


    -I never thought about it, but yeah.

    Wolfling wrote:
    ... In my mind I've also always connected him with the CG sword, Fragarach the Answerer with it's association of retribution. Fragarach was said to have originated in another world and so similarly I've always seen Trithereon as an arrival from elsewhere and the sword being brought with him. It wouldn't be the only case of deities arriving from other realms (Mayaheine, the Olman gods)...


    -Fair enough, but I think Fragarach was relabled LG (Prince of Furyondy, etc etc).

    But you can keep in CG IYC.
    Paladin

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    Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:17 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    I I agree that he and Ehlonna have much in common...perhaps siblings?

    -Lanthorn of the Summoner

    Those were my thoughts as well.. and IMC I went that route...

    As a more general thought to divinations..... I, personally, was never a fan of the cascade effect of "add more gods" the GH world went threw through out the "literal 40 years".
    At the dawn of GH there were actually realatively few GH "gods". that is why many had Tyr, Thor, Odin, etc. They were the choices offered when the game was new (ie white box progressing into the Deities / Demigods Book) And for the most part, I was good with that in my ignorance of youth... Cool
    As Time went on I understood the need to separate GH fro the histories & mythologies of earth. But DAMN... they exploded with a god for EVERYTHING... I'm almost assured at some point there was a divine spiritual influence for shoe tieing... Laughing
    At some point they peaked at near a hundred greater / lesser/ and quasi divine beings... Hey I get different fold believe different things but again DAMN... It sure makes a big task to manage as a DM.... Evil
    Hence, years ago, I started compiling the "powers" to be in to duality roles.... Not unlike what the romans did with the greek mythologies... are there differences.. sure... but to me one deity and its omnipresnce can manage a few differing dogmas...

    For Example Ehlonna / Ehlenestra, as Ehlonna she apeals to the "human patrons" as the guardian of the forest. She insures the Forest resources are not plundered wastfully or distructively. As Ehlenestra she appeals to the dogma of the old ways of the elves who pine for the days past as they were... When the world was not divided with lines on some paper, when the world did not bear the scars of man's progress. From MC perspective, the less learned populace is unaware they are one and the same deity. From the deities' perspective its all about brokering more followers (agreeing with wolfling and prayers here) and appealing to their needs, while still being faithful to the deities charge, in this case the woods and those fey creatures within.

    IMO, there are many Deities that can reside within multiple doctrine, thus reducing the total personages the DM has to manage. I think this methodology is applicable to the ascended as well if managed properly...
    Paladin

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    Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:24 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Oh, I forgot that I had an origin story for Trithereon in my rakshasa post:

    Cool read Rasgon.. thanks for Unearthing.. just now have to canablize into my rendition of Trthereon and his Ehlonna Ties. Wink
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