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    Canonfire :: View topic - Containers, Weight, & Encumbrance
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Containers, Weight, & Encumbrance
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    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:15 pm  
    Containers, Weight, & Encumbrance

    I feel like a fool for even asking these questions ( Confused ) , but wanting clarification/validation for what I think is correct:

    1) 10 coins, of any type, weigh 1 lb

    2) If a large sack (according to 2e PHB) can hold 30 lbs, then it can hold 300 coins. By the same token, a small sack, capable of holding 15 lbs, can hold 150 coins.

    In perusing, I also noted that in 1e, 20 silvers equal a single gold piece, but in 2e, it is 10 sp to 1 gp. Interesting...

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:55 pm  

    Yep, they went to a system more similar to that of American currency, so a copper piece equivocates to a penny, a silver piece to a dime, an electrum piece to a half dollar, a gold piece to a dollar, and a platinum piece to five dollars.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 pm  

    Thanks, Ceb. So, I am guessing that my other statements are likewise correct, too.

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:18 am  

    Oops - I've been using the 3rd edition rule of 50 coins weighing 1lb. Looks like my players have been getting off lightly with their encumbrance!

    10 coins weigh 1 lb though? That seems a lot of weight for coins. I appreciate that maybe our modern coinage is lighter but would more archaic currency really be that weighty?
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:33 am  

    Perhaps true, Wolfling, but remember that gold is a very dense, hefty metal. Also, we don't know the size of those coins. They may not be as small as our own currency.

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:09 pm  

    I just happened to find this old index card. It has a bunch of containers, along with the number of coins stacked and loose that can fit inside them. It must be from an old dragon magazine; I know I found this somewhere!

    backpack: stacked = NA, loose = 300
    sack, large: stacked = NA, loose = 400
    sack, small: stacked = NA, loose = 100
    coffer, large: stacked = 500, loose = 450
    coffer, small: stacked = 235, loose = 210
    chest: stacked = 43,200, loose = 38, 880
    Portable Hole: stacked = NA (who's going to stack them!), loose = 1, 954, 320
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:23 pm  

    The simplification of 10 coins = 1 pound infers that, with equal weights of each metal:

    1/5 platinum coin weight = 1 gold coin weight = 2 electrum coin weight = 10 silver coin weight = 100 copper coin weight

    The coins will then vary in size only due to the weight of the the metal they are made of.

    If we say that a gold coin is 3 cm in diameter, and 3 mm thick (about the size of an American Half Dollar, but 50% thicker, so this would be a nice, hefty coin! Happy), I wonder how big that would make the other coins if they are either 3 mm thick, or (for the smaller coins) 2 mm thick at their thinnest...

    I am not in the mood to do the math right now, but perhaps somebody is. Laughing
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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:39 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:27 am  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    Those are some large coins at 10 to a pound (1.6 oz).
    A US "silver" dollar (the Eisenhower one, minted 1971-78) weighs 0.8 oz, so, if you have two of those, tape them together, and there is an approximation of your standard D&D coin. Of course, as someone else mentioned, Gold is a fairly dense metal, so the actual size will be different, but you'd have the weight.

    A solid gold coin the size of a US "silver" dollar would weigh about 2.8 ounces.
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    Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:27 am  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    Those are some large coins at 10 to a pound (1.6 oz).
    A US "silver" dollar (the Eisenhower one, minted 1971-78) weighs 0.8 oz, so, if you have two of those, tape them together, and there is an approximation of your standard D&D coin. Of course, as someone else mentioned, Gold is a fairly dense metal, so the actual size will be different, but you'd have the weight.


    In D&D 3.5, they use 50 to the pound, about the size of a quarter.

    Na-na-ni-na-na! Razz Wink Laughing

    Actually, has anyone here ever experimented with different sized coins for different places and times?

    Not me. For once, too lazy! I assume that it's based on some old Suel Imperium standard that the Baklunis, and later, the Aerdians picked up on.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:38 am  

    Does anyone have a page number, from either 1st or 2nd edition sources, that clearly lists the amount of coins that can be contained and carried? So far I see only weight amounts. I have thumbed through mine, but I must've botched my Research proficiency, b/c I cannot find one. Please cite your source, and page number, if you find it...

    thanks,

    Lanthorn
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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:09 am  

    By chance I stumbled upon an article in Dragon #80 called "How Many Coins in a Coffer". I haven't read it thoroughly but I htink it might help! If you don't have that issue of Dragon I can read through it all and try and summarise if you like?
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:10 am  

    Ragnar (see above) may be citing that source from his 'old index card.'

    Wondering if any of the original hardback tomes (ex: PHB or DMG) have this information listed...

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:26 am  

    Ragnar's list does look like to it ties in with the results of the article (it doesn't actually provide a helpful list but leaves you to do the maths).

    It seesm to summarise that;

    10 stacked coins per cubic inch
    4 loose coins per cubic inch

    "and that you multiply by 1.75 to get the volume in cubic inches of a certain number of pounds of solid metal."

    I'm really dumb when it comes to maths so I'm still working this one out!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:29 am  

    in our game we have been using roughly 30 coins to a pound for encumberence. It was a decision made at the start of the campaign. In retrospect i am not so sure we should have used that big of a number. I keep hearing a voice telling me "AD&D is perfect just how it is. By changing any aspect of the game you are ruining the balance." The more i play the more right i think the voice is. If i had used weapon speed as per the method from the DMG. Would have made the 2 handed sword very unfavourable and the dagger more likely to be taken as a weapon proficiency.

    If i am reading the DMG right a weapon with half or less the weapon speed of its opponent would get two attacks per melee round. The dagger would be so quick it would go first all the time and would even make spell casting difficult around an opponent wielding the little knife.

    Right now we are using the 2nd edition method of iniative and weapon speed. At least in that edition they gave monsters a weapon speed. Not sure that 1st edition had a speed for monsters???

    Sorry bout the thread hijack and the lengthy ramble.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:06 am  

    From the Players Handbook (2nd Edition):

    Table 50:
    Stowage Capacity


    Item....................Weight Capacity...........Volume
    Backpack...................50 lbs....................3'_2'_1'
    Basket, large..............20 lbs....................2'_2'_2'
    Basket, small..............10 lbs....................1'_1'_1'
    Belt pouch, large...........8 lbs....................6"_8"_2"
    Belt pouch, small...........5 lbs....................4"_6"_2"
    Chest, large...............100 lbs...................3'_2'_2'
    Chest, small.................40 lbs...................2'_1'_1'
    Sack, large...................30 lbs...................2'_2'_1'
    Sack, small...................15 lbs...................1'_1'_8"
    Saddle bags, large.........30 lbs.................18"_1'_6"
    Saddle bags, small.........20 lbs...................1'_1'_6"

    Every one of my characters always brings a few large sacks and a few small sacks (they are good for things other than carrying treasure Wink), and a backpack with them wherever they go. Don't leave home without them. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:51 am  

    Thanks, Ceb. That was the only information I could also find that gave any indication how many coins could be contained by certain items, figuring that one multiplies the pound limit by 10.

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:27 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    From the Players Handbook (2nd Edition):

    Table 50:
    Stowage Capacity


    Item....................Weight Capacity...........Volume
    Backpack...................50 lbs....................3'_2'_1'
    Basket, large..............20 lbs....................2'_2'_2'
    Basket, small..............10 lbs....................1'_1'_1'
    Belt pouch, large...........8 lbs....................6"_8"_2"
    Belt pouch, small...........5 lbs....................4"_6"_2"
    Chest, large...............100 lbs...................3'_2'_2'
    Chest, small.................40 lbs...................2'_1'_1'
    Sack, large...................30 lbs...................2'_2'_1'
    Sack, small...................15 lbs...................1'_1'_8"
    Saddle bags, large.........30 lbs.................18"_1'_6"
    Saddle bags, small.........20 lbs...................1'_1'_6"

    It Should be noted that the above "weights" are what the item will hold with out bursting... NOT how much volume.
    For Example,
    1 Cubic Foot of 24k Gold would weigh in at over 1200 lbs
    Big C's Basket above may hold a cubic foot, but it cannot carry it.
    Mcneilk wrote:
    we have been using roughly 30 coins to a pound for encumberence. It was a decision made at the start of the campaign. In retrospect i am not so sure we should have used that big of a number.

    Disagree.. in history there is a wide precedence for a good deal more than this number. As a matter of fact, 30 is on the low side. The average is closer to 75 to 100.
    I did some homework on this awhile back, and made a spread sheet for comparison and conversion of varied ACTUAL coins .... it would not be a big leap to add Greyhawk denominations to it and Big Cs list of containers.... If anyone were interested I will pursue, IF there is interest and somebody could provide me a list (seems I saw one somewhere in these catacombs) of Realm coinages.. ie Crown, Noble, etc... by Country... I'll assemble for all.
    Again if there is interest.
    GreySage

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:08 am  

    DLG, your points are well taken and bear sense. I am going to continue delving, though I am not holding out for any hope to find clearly the number of coins a particular container can hold. For now, I will use the weight allowances provided.

    I have stumbled into a passage that makes me wonder, however, about the sheer number of coins that can be held, for in reading the horrid lair of Old Mother Grubb (City of Greyhawk boxed set, FFF: page 52) it notes there is a small sack that contains 240 ep, 315 gp, and 219 pp. That is WELL beyond the weight allowance limit if 10 coins equate to a single pound! Shocked Again, makes me wonder if I missed something, somewhere...or if this is merely an oversight by the writer. This is a distinct possibility, as we have all run into discrepancies before. If 3 small sacks were present, no troubles, but a single small (or even large, for that matter!) sack poses an issue...

    puzzled,

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:15 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    DLG, your points are well taken and bear sense. I am going to continue delving, though I am not holding out for any hope to find clearly the number of coins a particular container can hold. For now, I will use the weight allowances provided.

    Oh I understand that... that is what prompted me a year ago to research
    Lanthorn wrote:

    I have stumbled into a passage that makes me wonder, however, about the sheer number of coins that can be held, for in reading the horrid lair of Old Mother Grubb (City of Greyhawk boxed set, FFF: page 52) it notes there is a small sack that contains 240 ep, 315 gp, and 219 pp. That is WELL beyond the weight allowance limit if 10 coins equate to a single pound! ...........

    Well, again, just to use 21st century math and coinage as an example.....

    Your bag above equates to 774 coins.

    If we take Big Cs small sack above with its capacity of 15 lbs, that equates to 1,194 US Quarters Shocked (5.7g per quarter)
    which is little less than 30 rolls (40 to a roll =$10) each roll is 70mm or 2.76 inches. end to end thats alittle less than 83"
    With the Quarter being 24mm (alittle smaller than1") thats 1"x1"x83" still not the volume of the bag (12"x12"x8"), but maxing the containers capacity to carry the load(in this case 15#).

    OR

    Put another way,
    The values above for OMGrubb, can be pretty close if the coinage is sufficently large enough. (A roman Follis AE1 comes in pretty close at 800coins per 15# based on size/weight /composition)
    BUT, IMO if you have at 10 coins/# those values are abit heavy. (10*15#=150 coins??)
    Even the Roman Sestertius, the British 1/2 Crown, and the US $50Golden Eagle, come in at about 18, 32, and 15 coins per # respectively. And all of those are fairly large coins.. so it can be said size matters Smile Wink
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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:56 pm  

    In some spell descriptions it gives weights in gp. Even 30 gp/pound is gonna change the complexity of a levitate spell. 1000 gp/level would equate to about 33 pounds/level.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:59 pm  

    If a burlap sack can hold 90 pounds of rocks, which they can, I am pretty sure that a smaller sack made of similarly cheap material (a basic, cheap sack should be made of rough spun, not fine spun cloth) can hold 74 lbs (or less) of coins rather easily. Let's just say that the D&D sacks are, for some reason, made to be as flimsy as they can be, so are unable to hold as much as they are realistically should be able to. Same with the other containers.

    Also, don't underestimate the sturdy basket, as that is not going to be one woven of large, loose fibers, but one woven very tightly. Such baskets are very, very strong (quarry workers used them to move stone chips and dirt of course), and coins don't all lie together in a solid cubic foot block when piled up anyways. So, I would say that the weight capacities are very much on the light side for these things, considering their volumes and the materials they are made of.

    A snippet from "How Many Coins in a Coffer?", by David F. Goodwin, from Dragon Magazine #80:

    "How Many Coins in a Coffer?" wrote:
    Metal...............Specific Gravity..........lb./cu. in...............Volume of coin....................Thickness
    ...................................................................................cc......... cu.in.................mm............in.
    Platinum................21.40.....................0.784................2.12........0.129...............1.80..........0.073
    Gold......................19.30.....................0.697................2.35........0.143...............2.10..........0.081
    Silver.....................10.50.....................0.376................4.32........0.264...............3.80..........0.149
    Copper.....................8.90.....................0.300................5.10........0.311...............4.50...........0.176

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:46 am  

    I think David Goodwin goes on in his article to standardise the coins for ease of play. Using his formula at the end of the article;

    I think a small sack has a volume of 1152 cubic inches - Goodwin averages 4 loose coins per cubic inch so that would be 4608 coins! Buuut the sack can't handle the a load of more than 15lbs so therefore the small sack could hold 150 coins (it wouldnt be full but it would tear with any more coins).

    Of course if you use the 3rd edition 50 coins to a pound the small sack could carry 750 coins (assuming that the size of the coins were the same and yoiu could still get 4 to a cubic inch)

    N.B: Like I said earlier maths isn't my storng point so I might have calculated that wrong!

    I used this calculator to work out the cubic inch volume;

    http://www.calculatoredge.com/enggcalc/volume.html
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:06 am  

    A thing to keep in mind here is; Although a burlap sack may hold more weight than is apparently possible, it must be treated gently.

    In my construction days, we often filled such sacks to their capacity, however, if the sack is tossed, or set down heavily, it will burst, spilling its contents all over the place.

    So "over-filling" the sack is possible -- so as to carry as many coins as possible out of the dungeon -- but the sack cannot be tossed about when it's filled to that capacity.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:50 pm  

    Shazzam! Shocked

    FOUND IT! Exclamation

    OK, I had to meticulously scan the 1e PHB (couldn't find it in 2e PHB!), but found the following information:

    page 35 (under The Monetary System): "If is assumed that the size and weight of each coin is relatively equal to each other coin, regardless of type."

    (of course, this seems utterly illogical, given the unique properties of each metal, as we have all noted in this thread)

    page 102 (upper left under the Encumbrance chart): "Weight is usually stated in gold pieces, 10 gold pieces equalling 1# (pound)."

    I will continue seeking to see if 2e does anything different, if such information is even written...

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:07 pm  

    MEGA-HUZZAH!!! Idea

    Ok, good people, give me a point in Research. Found the following information in the 2nd Edition DMG Cool :

    page 134 (Coins section at the very top): "Coins (regardless of metal) normally weigh in at 50 to the pound."

    ISSUE SOLVED. <whew!> Happy

    Again, I don't agree with the parenthetical statement (scientifically, it just doesn't add up, literally, given their unique properties), but I kinda like the idea that FIFTY coins, instead of TEN, equate to a single pound. This allows for more coins to be stuffed into a bag or chest (or basket, pouch, rare pocket, etc.), and makes more overall sense.

    Thanks for bearing with me and this thread. I appreciate everybody's input and the collective knowledge we bring to any query.

    relieved and satisfied,

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:40 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:26 am  

    The weight is not an issue at all in the 2E statement. Assuming that the weights of the different types of coins are the same is no issue at all, but it does mean that if the weights are the same then the sizes of the different types of coins are different (simply due to the difference in mass of the metal types). The coins made of heavier/more valuable metals will be smaller, and so take up less volume in a container. "How Many Coins in a Coffer?" does make the point of recommending fudging things for simplicity's sake...after explaining a whole lot about things.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:26 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    . . . but it does mean that if the weights are the same then the sizes of the different types of coins are different (simply due to the difference in mass of the metal types). The coins made of heavier/more valuable metals will be smaller . . .


    Cebrion has the right of it. The American "old west" Silver Dollar has always been larger than the "Twenty Dollar gold piece." And pictures that I've seen show ancient "Silver Pennies" as smaller than "Copper Pieces."
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:08 pm  

    In the end it is all about the weight, so that is the most important thing. On a side note, "How Many Coins in a Coffer?" does figure out how many coins actually fit in certain volumes, and the numbers are many times that of those listed in the PHB 2E chart. For example:

    "We now have the following data for a standard, typical coin regardless of metallic composition — in the AD&D game:
    Weight: 0.1 lb. = 1.6 ounces = 45.36 grams
    Diameter: 1˝” = 3.81 cm
    Thickness: 0.1” = 0.254 cm = 2.54 mm"


    That is, incidentally, the size of a US "silver" dollar, but about twice as thick and twice the weight. So, a pretty hefty coin, and that is the "universal" coin size used in measuring things in the article. So...

    "How many coins will fit into a chest 18”" x 30"” x 18"”? This one’'s a little easier- 12 x 20 = 240 stacks 18” high with no room left over. (If the dimensions are up to you, make the horizontal measurements multiples of 1˝" to avoid the “coffer problem“). The volume is 9720 cubic inches. Right away we see that the chest will hold 43,200 stacked coins or 38,880 loose coins. (Each stack has 180 coins; 180 x 240 = 43,200.)"

    Compare that to a PHB 2E large chest measuring 36" x 24" x 24", which has a total volume of 20,736 cubic inches, which is more than twice the available volume of the above chest, but which is said to hold 5,000 coins, or less than 1/8 th the amount of the first chest. Yes, people might want to tweak the PHB 2E capacity numbers just a wee bit, but also note that at even 50 coins per pound, that chest holding roughly 66,000 stacked coins is going to weigh in at 1,320 pounds. Now, if the coins are loose then they take up about 10% more space, so there will "only" be 60,000 coins weighing 1,250 pounds in the chest then. Wink

    I just wouldn't worry about this too much, as there are more important (and entertaining) in-game things to spend time on instead.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:10 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Now, if the coins are loose then they take up about 10% more space, so there will "only" be 60,000 coins weighing 1,250 pounds in the chest then.


    Like I said, Tenser and Ehlissa are not going to be much help to Yrag in carrying that chest back to Greyhawk! Wink

    http://castlegreyhawk.blogspot.com/


    Mwahahahahahahahahahaha!
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:28 am  

    Hee hee. No doubt a Leomund's Secret Chest would be a back saver too. And did somebody look up how much a chest can hold for that comic? Must have. Laughing
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    Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:02 am  

    a chest with a thousand copper. Woop woop!
    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:36 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    . . . did somebody look up how much a chest can hold for that comic?


    Only Mort or Scott could answer that one! Laughing

    Personally, I'm not sure one thousand copper pieces are worth a trip back to Greyhawk! But then, they are pretty poor at this point of their careers! Evil Grin Laughing
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    Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:10 am  

    Not to create waves (and I actually agree with earlier findings), while I was researching something else, I came across to "pearls" pertaining to this discussion. Since we have tendancy to define by addition on other things, this would give DMs that option as well in lieu of "standardization."
    In OD&D Basic book
    OD&D Page 9 wrote:
    a backpack or sack will hold 300 gp and weighs 30 pounds
    (hence the 10/1 ratio supporting documentation).
    What is interesting is on page 34 of the same book,
    OD&D Page 34 wrote:
    All Coins are roughly equal size and wieght, being aproximately the circumference and thickness of a quarter and weighing about twice as much as a quarter

    So Using those values with what we have collected above, (5.7g per quarter)x2 that makes each "realm coin" weigh in at 11.4g, and with some 4th grade math using 453.6g per lb, we get just under 40 coins per pound. Humm Confused certainly not 10/1
    Here comes the fun part.
    Taking a page 9 to page 34 comparison
    300gp should have weighed 3420g or 7.54 lbs.
    OR
    If the weight were true (30lbs) and we hold the twice as thick quarter as a constant (11.4g)
    That would be 30lbs x 453.6g per lb =13,608g / 11.4g (per coin weight)=1194 coins.
    So even then they struggled with weight ratios.
    Smile Smile Laughing
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