There is a path that meanders South through the Kron Hills to Enstad known to some as the Trail of Tears. Is there any Canon to support this? and does it relate to the Flameflower Legends that stem from Corellon Larethian's Battles with Grummsh? Or is it referenced so due to Yolande's lost love Prince Triserron? Though I seem to recall his demise happened far to the south, yet can't recall where I read it.
I've read it somewhere.... but the mind slips hehehe......
And Anna makes note of it in her map as well. So, with her attention to detail, I'm thinking she has as well. Maybe an Living GH reference??
Labeled Here
...and does it relate to the Flameflower Legends that stem from Corellon Larethian's Battles with Grummsh?
Flameflower is an elven community in the Vesve Forest, and the town was named in reference to the blood-red blossoms in the area, presumably the site of Corellon's epic battle vs. Gruumsh...according to legend, of course.
I read something about the Trail of Tears in the Lortmil Mountain (by Sobhrach) article in Oerth Journal 2, pg 17. It only references Keoland attempting to attack Furyondy by sending troopers through the Trail of Tears. Do not know if this helps. I can not remember if I had read further information about the trail.
I read something about the Trail of Tears in the Lortmil Mountain . . .It only references Keoland attempting to attack Furyondy by sending troopers through the Trail of Tears.
A trail facilitating that particular maneuver would bypass the nation of Celene all together, much less it's capital city of Enstad.
The Darlene map does show two trails -- one from the Duchy and one from the County -- both heading into Celene and in the general direction of of Enstad, but it shows no trail leading directly across the Lortmils to Veluna or the Kron Hills -- which would facilitate movement to Furyondy.
The Trail of Tears was something invented by Sobhrach for the Oerth Journal #2. It is not canon. According to that article, it is named for the terrible losses suffered in clearing the pass during the Hateful Wars. The name is not related to elven mythology. As Mystic said, this particular trail does not cross or touch the borders of Celene, at least not as originally defined by Sobhrach.
Oerth Journal 2 wrote:
Several passes have been charted through the lower portions of the peaks. Among these are the Trail of Tears (so named for the terrible losses suffered during a battle to clear the pass during the Hateful Wars) leading between southern Veluna and the Duchy of Ulek; the Silver Path leading from the hills above Tringlee to the western branch of the Jewel River in Celene; and the Hidden Road, winding between Enstad and the central foothills of the County. Of these the Trail of Tears sees the most traffic, as Celene has closed its borders to all 'outsiders' and does not allow passage along either of the latter two trails. The Hidden Road is so named because for much of its length it is beneath overhanging ledges and even travels in underground grottoes for a short portion. The path appears to be magical in nature, as those who have dared it also claim that the name refers to the fact that the road appears to vanish into, and emerge from, solid rock faces, but these tales are unsubstantiated. The Trail of Tears was notably used during the Greyhawk Wars when the armies of Keoland and volunteers from the Ulek states finally marched north through the mountains to aid Furyondy.
Several passes have been charted through the lower portions of the peaks . . . the Silver Path leading from the hills above Tringlee to the western branch of the Jewel River in Celene; and the Hidden Road, winding between Enstad and the central foothills of the County.
Never knew the names of those two paths before now. Thanks for pointing that out, Rasgon!
Oerth Journal 2 wrote:
. . . and the Hidden Road, winding between Enstad and the central foothills of the County.
Hmm. I believe that statement is just a little bit "off" -- according to the Darlene map. The Silver Path and the Hidden Road are shown to be on opposite sides of the Kewl River, which winds deep into the Lortmils.
According to the Darlene map, the Hidden Road unites Celene with the Duchy of Ulek. It is the Silver Path that unites the County of Ulek with Celene.
Hmm. I believe that statement is just a little bit "off" -- according to the Darlene map. The Silver Path and the Hidden Road are shown to be on opposite sides of the Kewl River, which winds deep into the Lortmils.
According to the Darlene map, the Hidden Road unites Celene with the Duchy of Ulek. It is the Silver Path that unites the County of Ulek with Celene.
Well, the passes on the Darlene map aren't labeled (none of those names are canon). It's a little confusing, since the path that leads from north of Tringlee is closer to Enstad than the path that begins in the County (which is also technically north of Tringlee, but not as far north - I would have described it as northeast of Tringlee, while the other path is closer to true north), so it sounds like Sobhrach mixed up the beginnings and terminations of both paths. I guess you could decide either way.
Also, what Sobhrach called the "western branch of the Jewel" was later canonized as the Handmaiden River, but that name doesn't exist on the Darlene map.
Both passes begin north of Tringlee and end relatively near Enstad and the Handmaiden, so the directions are kind of interchangeable. There's a limit to how literally you can take maps in which each 30 mile hex only represents (for the most part) a single terrain feature, anyway. On Anna's map, the Silver Path begins at Tringlee itself, crosses a bridge to the north and hugs the eastern bank of the Kewl River for a time before leading to the town of Anyanes on the Handmaiden River, which isn't exactly like what the Darlene map portrays but is closer to the southern pass than the northern one (and close enough, knowing the Darlene map doesn't have a resolution finer than a 30-mile hex). Anna depicted another pass running from the elven fortress of Ren Baelesti to Enstad itself, which I suppose is meant to represent the Hidden Road.
On Anna's map, both passes are in the Duchy of Ulek, not the County. Anna's map provides another pass leading from Kewlbanks in the County of Ulek to Courwood in Celene.
The path that Sobhrach called the Trail of Tears is marked on Anna's map passing between Mount Leistaugh and Mount Treunsgian, but it's unlabeled there. I'm not sure why she gave the name to a pass leading through the Kron Hills.
On Anna's map, both passes are in the Duchy of Ulek, not the County.
Did Anna place both trails "north" of the Kewl River?
rasgon wrote:
. . . the path that leads from north of Tringlee is closer to Enstad than the path that begins in the County (which is also technically north of Tringlee, but not as far north . . .
I understood the southern pass to have a County origin based upon its location on the "southern" side of the Kewl River; though technically "north" of Tringlee. The LGG does name the Kewl as the border between the Duchy and County.
Did Anna place both trails "north" of the Kewl River?
No, but she places the border a fair distance southeast of the Kewl. Her borders are a bit odd in other respects; the LGG says the County of Ulek's eastern border is the Handmaiden River, while Anna puts its border in the middle of the Lortmils.
Well, Anna's efforts on all our behalves is nothing but praiseworthy, so there won't be any complaints. The Darlene map could use some adjustments anyway.
There is a path that meanders South through the Kron Hills to Enstad known to some as the Trail of Tears. Is there any Canon to support this? and does it relate to the Flameflower Legends that stem from Corellon Larethian's Battles with Grummsh?
The idea that Enstad is literally the site at which Corellon and Gruumsh battled (or very near it), and thus the birthplace of the orcish and elven races, is an intriguing one. It would explain why the region might be sacred to both orcs and elves.
I tend to assume that the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh happened on another plane, though. It might also not be literally true - the gnomes of Gaborren's Rift believe that it was their god, Garl Glittergold, who Gruumsh fought (Gruumsh has probably fought a lot of gods - I imagine that various peoples dramatize the battle between Gruumsh and Moradin, Maglubiyet, Hextor, Heironeous, Yondalla, or Trithereon just as much). Your mileage may vary.
Quote:
Or is it referenced so due to Yolande's lost love Prince Triserron? Though I seem to recall his demise happened far to the south, yet can't recall where I read it.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 40, says: "While returning from a mission to the County of Ulek, the prince consort was waylaid and slain by orcs in a narrow pass south of the town of Courwood." So it sounds like this happened in the pass I mentioned above, on the road between Kewlbanks and Courwood.
Did Anna place both trails "north" of the Kewl River?
No, but she places the border a fair distance southeast of the Kewl. Her borders are a bit odd in other respects; the LGG says the County of Ulek's eastern border is the Handmaiden River, while Anna puts its border in the middle of the Lortmils.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Well, Anna's efforts on all our behalves is nothing but praiseworthy, so there won't be any complaints. The Darlene map could use some adjustments anyway..
Certainly not to be one to be critical of Annas work , Im a HUGE FAN, but do agree with Rasgons' comment around the borders and even some "minor city placements".
Noticed the Handmaiden one as well... (My Yolonde annexed all she can see from her front door), hence She claims to the top of the mountains, and negotiation with the Lortmill dwarves grants them All she cannot,,, IE under those same mountains to the handmaiden..... Think mineral rights!!! hehehe
As to city placement... if one looks at the Darlene on the meridian longitudal line no more than 30 miles separates Crockport, Chendl, Littleburg, Verbobonc, and Enstad.... but on Annas, Crockport is further east than Chendl. And Littleburg, Verbobonc, and Enstad should be in the same 30 mile longitude hex but either Verbobonc and Enstad are too far west or Littleburg lies too far to the east. Again this not nit picking or being negative in any way... many a middleages map was less than geographically perfect... So I have no issue nor would expect a photocopy of one work to the other.
Though I tend to view both the Darlene and the "Anna" as would be any other old age maps less Rand McNaley and more Artform anyway....
I digressed and will dig into the trail offerings in the morning thanks for the feedback all.
There is a path that meanders South through the Kron Hills to Enstad known to some as the Trail of Tears. Is there any Canon to support this? and does it relate to the Flameflower Legends that stem from Corellon Larethian's Battles with Grummsh?
The idea that Enstad is literally the site at which Corellon and Gruumsh battled (or very near it), and thus the birthplace of the orcish and elven races, is an intriguing one. It would explain why the region might be sacred to both orcs and elves.
I tend to assume that the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh happened on another plane, though. It might also not be literally true - the gnomes of Gaborren's Rift believe that it was their god, Garl Glittergold, who Gruumsh fought (Gruumsh has probably fought a lot of gods - I imagine that various peoples dramatize the battle between Gruumsh and Moradin, Maglubiyet, Hextor, Heironeous, Yondalla, or Trithereon just as much). Your mileage may vary. .
I have pondered similar thoughts, but seems somewhere was it not written that the gods did infact battle on Oerth, and agreed later not to continue because it would lead to their creations distruction? And a further pact that none that did not originate from the prime could wage war there? Thus leaving a convenient loop-hole for Iuz? Though, as an after thought to typing this, may be it was the word over instead of on so that could make it on locale or elswhere.... might have been distorted in translation as many a legend starts???
As to Corellon, Gruumsh and the rest maybe the battle started in one place to another and being the divine just moved as the battle commenced? In this case maybe Flameflower, to the Kron Hills& Lortmills, to appex in Celene?
Might further help to explain the origins of other geographic "landmarks" such as the Rift Canon and Ehlonas' Scar perhaps?
rasgon wrote:
Quote:
Or is it referenced so due to Yolande's lost love Prince Triserron? Though I seem to recall his demise happened far to the south, yet can't recall where I read it.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 40, says: "While returning from a mission to the County of Ulek, the prince consort was waylaid and slain by orcs in a narrow pass south of the town of Courwood." So it sounds like this happened in the pass I mentioned above, on the road between Kewlbanks and Courwood.
I agree with your assessment.... So I discounted it as a possability for ToT.... as Courwood and that particular trail seemed too far south.
...Might further help to explain the origins of other geographic "landmarks" such as the Rift Canon and Ehlonas' Scar perhaps?
For what it's worth, the Rift Canyon was canonized (in Age of Worms, if not before) as having been made during the Battle of Pesh between the Wind Dukes and the forces of Chaos.
So first I must say I'm honored to be mentioned and criticized in a discussion as interesting as this. I welcome it and need this kind of input in order to make my maps as good as possible, especially from GH experts like you guys!
The area in question are the the one I mapped first back in the late 90's and recently made a set of adjustments to, so here are the latest version:
Its important that the discussion on my latest version to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings.
My base reference have been Paizo's Flanaess maps by Rob Lazzaretti since the came out in 2005 and not the Darlene map. So when the Paizo map came out I added a lot of stuff and made a over of my earliest work. At this time I didn't have any of the digital research tools I have today so I read on paper and took notes by hand. I have often thought about making notes on where I find stuff but in the end decided to skip that, research takes so much of my effort already. To write down my every decision would have killed my project in a bureaucratic quagmire long ago, I'm only one person and I love to make maps not run a library ;)
I remember reading about the Trail of Tears somewhere without much of an explanation so I put the name on one of the passes in the area without a name hoping that more would come of it later, so I'm so glad to be right my gamble paid off :)
When it comes to the pass between Duchy of Ulek and Enstad and the Silver path I tried to create passes that loosely matched the ones on the Paizo map (which loosely matches the Darlene map). Terrain fractals have a life of their own so I settled when I had something I thought was good enough. the town of Ayanes and the Western Elvenguard are my own inventions and on my private campaign layer, which will not be on the final map, unless asked for. The pass east of Tringlee goes across the Kewl and then goes across the mountains, which I tried to depict.
If you wonder why I don't match the base map perfect is that I use fractals and they don't work with precision and especially when you're a beginner its even harder to get the results you want. I've learned a lot over the years and have redone some of my early work to make it better and there are probably still more to redo. When it comes the the placement of Chendl, it came down to the shape of the terrain. Whyestil Lake, Crystal River and Lake Restin forms the land and I decided a good place for the city was on the river plain at the bend east, which would be where it appear on the Paizo map. That happned to be a bit more west, but as they say in the military when there is a conflict between map and terrain, terrain wins
I added passages across the Lortmil's in the County of Ulek becasue I saw it as obvoius sice both sides of the mountains belongs to the same realm. The border between the County of Ulek and Celene follows the Handmaiden along most of the County border but are in the middle of the mountains along the part where there are few passes, again something i reasoned are natural. I try to apply reason more than precision, fantasy map making is not a science its much more an art form, with some functionality built in.
I really like the idea that Enstad sits on the site where Corellon and Gruumsh battle took place, perfect for legends and motivations for conflict building!
This might not give all the answers but hopefully my thoughts behind my maps could help the discussion onwards and me to improve my map a bit more.
I added passages across the Lortmil's in the County of Ulek becasue I saw it as obvoius sice both sides of the mountains belongs to the same realm. The border between the County of Ulek and Celene follows the Handmaiden along most of the County border . . .
Interesting. I would never have thought/guessed that, given that throughout most of Oerth the mountains are "untameable" overall. I would think them "abandoned" to the dwarven/gnomish peoples and any humanoids that might live there.
Patrolling/Policing the mountains would be a nightmare, even if such patrols only involved the passes. For this reason, I always took the mountains to be the "border."
I added passages across the Lortmil's in the County of Ulek becasue I saw it as obvoius sice both sides of the mountains belongs to the same realm. The border between the County of Ulek and Celene follows the Handmaiden along most of the County border . . .
Interesting. I would never have thought/guessed that, given that throughout most of Oerth the mountains are "untameable" overall. I would think them "abandoned" to the dwarven/gnomish peoples and any humanoids that might live there.
Patrolling/Policing the mountains would be a nightmare, even if such patrols only involved the passes. For this reason, I always took the mountains to be the "border."
Live, read and learn! Thanks for sharing that, Anna!
Like MS, I view the demi-humans perspective on borders abit different than their human counterparts. The humans IMC, define borders with treaty and lines on a map. Whereas, IMC, Dwarves, Gnomes, Elves, and others define by terrain types, since the "lines" are more obvious and visible than those on some map. In the case of the Lortmills to me it made sense for the Elves of Celene to defend all they can see (to the mountain tops) and treaty the gnomes and the dwarves those things they covet (and beneath what the elves do not), akin to how mineral rights and land ownership works in our modern era.
As to defending the more remote areas, in Celene's case that is where the Hippogriff riders became famous.
. . . it made sense for the Elves of Celene to defend all they can see (to the mountain tops) and treaty the gnomes and the dwarves those things they covet (and beneath what the elves do not), akin to how mineral rights and land ownership works in our modern era.
(Double Posts! )
Seriously, I find the entire concept . . . weird.
The Gnomes generally "breathe fresh air" and might find it difficult to hide their "doings" from the Elves.
On the other hand, Dwarves can spend their entire lives -- hundreds of years -- underground, without ever coming to the surface. How would the Elves ever know if the Dwarves were tunneling under "Celene," practically "stealing" all of the gold and jewels?
To the best of my knowledge, the Elves place no real value on gold and gems -- they do not "lust" for them -- and hate being under ground and so do no mining. And given that all the "books" and "movies" show that Elves and Dwarves distrust each other, how would they trust each other in some type of mining "partnership?"
. . . it made sense for the Elves of Celene to defend all they can see (to the mountain tops) and treaty the gnomes and the dwarves those things they covet (and beneath what the elves do not), akin to how mineral rights and land ownership works in our modern era.
The Gnomes generally "breathe fresh air" and might find it difficult to hide their "doings" from the Elves.
True, but in this case implying the Rock shoales of the Kron Hills which (as you & I point out) the Elves have no interest in.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
On the other hand, Dwarves can spend their entire lives -- hundreds of years -- underground, without ever coming to the surface. How would the Elves ever know if the Dwarves were tunneling under "Celene," practically "stealing" all of the gold and jewels?
To the best of my knowledge, the Elves place no real value on gold and gems -- they do not "lust" for them -- and hate being under ground and so do no mining.
True because as you stated they(Elves) place no value in it, so it is easy to have a "border agreement" when each side is wanting what the other covets least, isnt it?
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
And given that all the "books" and "movies" show that Elves and Dwarves distrust each other, how would they trust each other in some type of mining "partnership?"
Thoughts, anyone?
Wasn't implying "partnership" (contract) was implying "agreement"(Treaty). You stay in your realm, and we to ours. Which all sides would consider a good deal. As noted above, each values more greatly what the other does not.
The Dwarves below ground, The Gnomes to the Shoaled Hills of the Kron, and the Elves to the surface areas of Forest, Meadows. As to "mining partnerships" can certainly see this between the Dwarves and the Gnomes.
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