Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Learning New Spells
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Learning New Spells
    Author Message
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

    Send private message
    Wed May 08, 2013 1:35 pm  

    My questions to those DMs who've used a spell point system is: How does it compare as far as the sheer number of spells a mage can cast? And pertaining to the first question, have you checked this against several levels?
    I'm especially concerned about higher levels. The thought of a player character mage being able to throw around a couple dozen lightning bolts in a single day has given me pause. And on the other hand, I would not want to rip the players off as far as the spells their mages can cast.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
    Posts: 378
    From: Minnesota

    Send private message
    Wed May 08, 2013 1:58 pm  

    Yikes! I can see where trouble is abrewing for me. I will have to ponder that one a bit.

    This system may not hold up in the future. . . .

    I look forward to the priest spells blog. I will hold my thoughts for it when it persents itself. Maybe by then, I will have my houserules more thought out for higher levels.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Wed May 08, 2013 4:58 pm  

    I have turned all spell-casters (priests and mages alike) into channelers, essentially.

    The main reason was one of frustration with how rigidly affixed spells were aligned. Oftentimes, my wizard (or cleric) would only need a 'lesser' spell (such as Light) but, according to the rules (Mystic advises, "guidelines" and herein I agree fully), if you were out of 1st lvl spells, you couldn't do it, even if your 2nd, 3rd lvl, etc. spells were not expended. I didn't like how casters were 'pigeon-holed' in this manner.

    I preferred a more fluid system, allowing casters to 'tap into' their magical reserves, arcane or divine in nature, and spend what 'spell points' they needed for whatever the task at hand demanded.

    I created a 'Mana Pool' using the original system, the chart of spells given for each cleric or wizard, based on spell level. I added up the SUM TOTAL of all spell levels, and allowed the caster to use whatever spell he/she desired (in his/her repertoire, be it spell book or Spheres, for priests).

    I also give casters bonus spells for high Intelligence and Wisdom (use the cleric Wisdom table for Intelligence with regard to mages). Ex: a 16 Intelligence grants a mage 2 first and 2 second lvl bonus spell lvls to add to the "Mana Pool."

    Ex: a 5th lvl mage, according to the Player's Handbook, can cast 3 first lvl spells (3 mana pts), 3 second lvl spells (6 mana pts), and 1 third lvl spell (3 mana pts). This adds to 9 mana pts. Adjust for high Intelligence (if the mage in question had a 16 Int, add 4 more pts) and/or mage specialization.

    Each spell cast costs its level in mana points. A 1st lvl spell is worth but one pt whereas a 5th lvl spell costs 5 mana pts.

    Yes, at high lvls this grants a mage (or cleric) a MASSIVE number of spell points for the mana pool (Mordenkainen would have well over 100 pts!), but, as I mentioned earlier, there ARE checks and balances to spell-casters, including time for prayer/memorization, rest and recovery, fatigue, and perhaps most important of all, COMPONENTS.

    I have used this system for some time now and have come to thoroughly enjoy it, allowing greater flexibility and freedom for priests and mages to cast their spells while still holding them accountable to the rigors of magic use.

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
    Posts: 378
    From: Minnesota

    Send private message
    Thu May 09, 2013 12:37 am  

    Lanthorn. That is good to hear. I like the concept of spell points, mana points, etc. very much. I will have to look at my system and see how it goes but your system seems pretty darn easy to run.

    If mine collapses in utter failure, I may have to give yours a go.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu May 09, 2013 2:24 pm  

    Mheaton118, you give me great credit, kind sir. Happy

    Yeah, it works for me. Maybe it will for you. It is really nice to let clerics and wizards have the flexibility to cast whatever spell they need at that moment, without being rigidly held to some type of 'spell level caste system.' If you need a spell (and KNOW it from your spell book or scrolls...or have access to the necessary Sphere, as a priest), have the mana points for it, as well as the necessary components, then let them fly.

    I have found it a nice change of pace.

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
    Posts: 378
    From: Minnesota

    Send private message
    Thu May 09, 2013 11:26 pm  

    Blue Witch. So far at low levels it has made the mages a lot more fun. They have a little more power and a lot more flexibility.

    As stated, the variety of spells increases.

    As far as high levels go, it may be an issue. I think it can be controlled by the DM in regards to spell components and rest, etc though. I can not say myself since I have not playtested it out that far.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
    Posts: 378
    From: Minnesota

    Send private message
    Thu May 09, 2013 11:31 pm  

    I meant to add, it does give them more spells, especially low level spells when the mage is high level.

    I did some analysis between Lanthorn and my systems and they actually seem to be pretty comparable. His system seems easier to manage that mine though.

    I agree with Lanthorn, I didn't like the rigid way spells were done. I will keep experimenting until happy with some sore of spell point system.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Fri May 10, 2013 11:02 pm  

    I'll point out that Lanthorn's system is basically what D&D did with sorcerers in 3.x ed. - they have a small number of spells they know, but they can cast whatever spell of a certain level they want, when they want to, up to their limit for that level per day.

    SirXaris
    _________________
    SirXaris' Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SirXaris?ref=hl
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat May 11, 2013 5:26 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Lanthorn's system is basically what D&D did with sorcerers in 3.x ed.


    I accused them of turning their Wizards into Sorcerers on my Blog. Wink

    The way it was written, Wizards were more versatile than Sorcerers, but not necessarily more powerful. In using the method they prescribe, they've basically made their Wizards more powerful than was at first intended.

    After giving Wizards this addition power, they then set about trying to come up with ways to keep their Wizards from unbalancing the game! Shocked

    Like I already said, they're . . . "weird." Evil Grin Laughing Laughing Laughing
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sun May 12, 2013 12:25 pm  

    Learning New Spells - Part Two is now up on the Blog, for any who might be interested in continuing the discussion. Wink
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Sun May 12, 2013 5:14 pm  

    Will do, Mystic. I've enjoyed perusing your blog, and the visual graphics are a nice touch.

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 26, 2013
    Posts: 36
    From: San Antonio TX

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:11 pm  

    Back when I played and ran 1st/2nd editions I was pretty strict in the application of the limits imposed on wizardry. I think it kept itself balanced fairly well.

    However we liked rolling high numbers for success so a 35% successful chance was 65-100.

    We usually implemented rules such as if you are trying to learn a 1st level spell and you can cast say up to 5th level, you get a 5% bonus per level you can cast.

    So a wizard with a 35% success rate trying to learn a 1st level spell and can cast upwards of 5th level would have a 55% chance to learn the spell.

    There were other various modifiers that we would add in, positive or negative based on circumstance. One other rule we did allow was "forgetting" a spell. We basically saw the limit as a capacity for how much knowledge one could hold onto before they had an aneurysm or something of the like. So instead if a wizard has reached his maximum spell allotment for a level and encountered a new spell then they could "forget" one of their spells to make room for the new spell.

    This was especially useful for my first edition fighter/mage who's only offensive spell through the first 8 levels was burning hands (a whopping 1 dmg per caster level at the time! wooo) it did however force me to capitalize on supportive magic and that was awesome. I learned an appreciation for different spells that most people wouldn't even bother with and came up with several new applications for them, but that's neither here nor there.

    By the time I learned magic missile I had already reached my cap for 1st level spells, the DM allowed me to "forget" a spell I knew and replace it with MM.

    That worked fine for us and we all agreed on it.

    Other bonuses included having a mentor, or even a colleague around to help, among other random miscellaneous bonuses.

    Another rule we used was if you failed to learn the spell 3 times then you cannot ever learn it.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:40 pm  

    I hope you weren't altering the rules because you were used to playing with wizards with Intelligence scores of 9 (below average intelligence; Know Spell: 35%) too often. Razz
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 09, 2001
    Posts: 655


    Send private message
    Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:35 am  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    My questions to those DMs who've used a spell point system is: How does it compare as far as the sheer number of spells a mage can cast? And pertaining to the first question, have you checked this against several levels?
    I'm especially concerned about higher levels. The thought of a player character mage being able to throw around a couple dozen lightning bolts in a single day has given me pause. And on the other hand, I would not want to rip the players off as far as the spells their mages can cast.


    I used a spell point system for my online game, and at lower levels it did, indeed, work better. Priests and Wizards had much more versatility, and they had far more fun, which is to be expected. The problems didn't really set in until around 5th or 6th level.

    My system was rather basic. I figured out your spells per level normally, adjusted by whatever other things were pertinent, such as specialization, high INT (just like wisdom), etc. Then I just translated them into points on a one-for-basis. A 1st level spell was 1 point, 2nd was 2 points, 3rd was 3 points, etc.. It was simple and easy, then it started to break down. I'll quote from my online game to show you.

    ***

    Spell Points and Spells/level



    I'm making an adjustment to how magic works. My spell point system is still going to be used. However, I actually am re-instituting the spells/level. You aren't going to be limited to them, but I will now keep track of them on the Player Notes thread. Once you use the max number of spells of a given level, the cost will double if you cast more of that level. If you go over the max again, the cost triples, etc..

    Here's the rationale. Let's just take Hepla. She's a 10th level mage. Her spell points are: 47. Her spells/level are: 1st (6), 2nd (6), 3rd (4), 4th (3), 5th (1). By the RaW, she would have a max of 6 1st level spells. That's good, as something like Magic Missile does a lot of damage, is nearly unstoppable, and she could cast it 47 times! Now she's going to be more limited. Once she casts 6 1st level spells, any further ones will start costing "2" points. If she goes beyond her limit again (i.e. has cast 12 1st level spells) the cost goes up by another increment! So, while you will still have quite a bit more flexibility than virtually any other mages in DnD, I will now use the standard spells/level to add in a slight brake to this flexibility. For the most part, not much will change. For those of you to whom I've spoken about limiting spells to try and not take advantage of my spell point system, you can now ignore that. This should be totally enough.

    ***

    It's been a few months since the change, and things had been going well. However, I then found this to be a bit tedious, keeping track of both point AND spells/level. So, I just dropped the points altogether. Now I simply allow spellcasters to use higher level spells to cast lower level spells. I don't allow them to use lower level spells to cast higher level spells. Anyway, now all I have to do is keep track of the spells/level normally, and it is easier. I still don't require memorization though.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:16 am  

    In addition to running a spell points system (see above long entry) and removing the limit number of spells permitted per level (I let the memorization chance determine that), I have also allowed mages more than one attempt to know a given spell:

    The first time they attempt and fail, I record the difference. Ex: if a wizard has a 75% chance to know a spell and rolls 88%, I record "13%." When the mage rises in level, I permit another attempt, subtracting the difference from the chance. Ex: the second time this wizard attempts, it will be at 75-13 = 62%. This compounds each and every time until it reaches "0%."

    I've even tinkered with the notion of a system of spell hierarchy, too, based on spell effect similarities, requiring a wizard to know 'prerequisite' spells first before moving on to more advanced types, but so far I haven't done so.

    For instance, the 1st lvl Burning Hands could be the prerequisite spell for the 2nd lvl Flaming Sphere, which in turn leads to the 3rd lvl Fireball, and so on...

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 26, 2013
    Posts: 36
    From: San Antonio TX

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:43 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I hope you weren't altering the rules because you were used to playing with wizards with Intelligence scores of 9 (below average intelligence; Know Spell: 35%) too often. Razz


    No, not generally lol, the character I played in 1st ed. had some rather gaudy stats. But there were a few wizards throughout the game that had lower int scores than 18.

    18/70 strength (somehow later in the campaign it was permanently altered to 18/00 although I cannot remember how or why)
    16 dex
    16 con
    18 int
    10 wis
    9 cha
    19 com
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.33 Seconds