Canonfire! Forums-viewtopic-Religion is not a canon basis for adventuresin tWoG

Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:59 pm Religion is not a canon basis for adventuresin tWoG

I've been following the 'religion' in adventures phenomenon in D&D worlds for some time. It seems that it has become somewhat of a crutch for writers to come up with adventures and that it truly doesn't belong in Greyhawk.

For example: The gods. Boy, there sure are a lot of them. There sure are a lot of 'areas of concern' for these gods too. I think DM's just get the sense that they can 'pick the theme of the day' by selecting a god, making an evil cleric and whatnot.

In early Greyhawk adventures, religion was very unclear. You had St. Cuthbert in Hommlet, but nobody was quite sure who Lareth the Beautiful actually worshipped. He was just plain evil.

Iuz doesn't really even count as a god..he's just a bad guy.

I think that the 'infection' of this line of thinking came along when 2nd edition required clerics to have a god. Then the overzealous folk needed enemies..who better than their arch enemy god. Then DM's just figured, heck he's evil, so he makes a good villain for the whole party..and so on.

The problem with GH however is that there aren't enough evil organizations. We've had the Scarlet Brotherhood (no longer secret..just a bunch of buffoons running around making mistakes now..more like spy vs. spy), the Giants (disorganized..perhaps lead by drow..but the forgettable realms stole them), Iuz (yea, he's just leading a bunch of orcs..nothing sinister there), Barbarians (they're so far away), North Kingdom (no longer interested in anyone else), Ahlissa (perhaps a workable enemy..but again, focused on nothing really sinister).

In a sense, there's not much happening. All of the gains of the evil guys in From the Ashes were swiftly turned to mere annoyances and high grades of embarassment for the enemies of balance. Nowadays, GH feels like playing inside of a grimy soupcan. Some dirt and slime, but most of the good stuff has been taken.

From a non-canon point of view (aka Living Greyhawk) the world has some things going on but they're regional. Did you all know that the Countess of Urnst is now dead?... The metaregional events are hardly going to make the world anything great, and the Core events merely pack some lightly sprinkled themes of past adventrues into a 3.5 hour slot so that the players can get whatever items are coming to them. The 'feel' of Greyhawk is not consistent in LG like it was when we had actual stuff. To relate back to my original gripe, there was a whole series of adventures based on some gods (not bad adventures, but it takes more than god-name-invokations to make a Greyhawk adventure).

Lately, Erik has done his best to get out some GH themed material, however it's feats, and Prestige Classes and dungeons of dead ends with little to no tidbit or obscure lead material that we can 'grip' onto for our future campaigns.

SO, where do we go? Canonfire is the only remaining bastion of anything truly GREYHAWK. I just want to thank you guys for hanging around this long :)

jh

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Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:47 pm

GH DM's have always managed throught thick and thin for good plots and materials. Its just sometimes you have to dig. And Deep! But for the most part everyone can pull a few passages from things like the new GH from Dungeon and find that it can provide the impetus for new adventures if you apply a healthy dose of work and back tracking. Knowledge of the details is what keeps me playing, when I link this villian or item to a old campaign thread or passage from an older source. Its all in what you make of it..and thats the fun of GH, its like a home game thats never stopped and keeps on going!

Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:47 pm

Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:55 pm

The fun that religion can add to an adventure is when you have different PCs with different religions. Getting the PCs to come to an agreed course of actions that satisfies the wishes of everyone involved can add a lot of roleplaying and interest to an otherwise dull adventure.

For example, the PCs are asked with rounding up and returning some escaped prisoners to jail. But what if the party consists of a cleric of Pholtus and a follower of Trithereon? A lot of fun for the DM at least, as the PCs debate what they should do.
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Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:26 am Re: Religion is not a canon basis for adventuresin tWoG

Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:16 pm

Belisicca of Urnst is dead!? Who says? <grin>

Really, where did you find that info? I like to keep up with the events in Urnst and this can help a tale I'm telling currently.

Thanks

PS: I did get the point of your message, but until Greyhawk is empowered by one owner with vision and interest, I doubt we'll see much real change. I do like Dungeon, but it can only keep Greyhawk on life support.

Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:09 pm Re: Religion is not a canon basis for adventuresin tWoG

Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:49 am Gods

I can see the point of the Gods being a crutch, but they do not have to be. I tend to think more of them as Congress, each sending out aids to do this that or the other. There are lots of them, and you can never truly boil down their motivations or philosophy to a few simple phrases, domains or platitudes.

One thing about a politician, of any stripe, time or universe, one minute you are walking lockstep down the street, then you feel the wind change and you find yourself alone and realize you are in a dark alley.

Imagine the conversation "Yes, I left you hanging from a rope by the neck, but I still granted you spells." Some sacrifices must be made, even the gods think so... only PCs seem to think differently.

A crutch, it can be, when He Who Must Be Obeyed gives the divine quest, and the PCs march off with moral certainty. Just hope I am not your DM. You might find the gods beating you with that crutch.

And a beating by a god hurts.

Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:08 am

Good Topic Smile

As for the Gods issue, yes their are alot but you have too remember the GH grew organically at first with IMHO no real overall plan and the Gods are an example of that. Originally GH looked to various cultures but complaints began as players wanted uniquely GH Gods so not wanting to upset the fans Gods started too appear some used in the home game, some simply brainstormed to beef up the list. Evil PCs and Npcs were suppose to look to Demons (when they were called demons) bad press and hysteria gave birth to yet more new names. 2nd Ed appears and given the interest in the Gods a more formal pantheon structure if I remember correctly the idea was floated to retire some of the early Gods that didn't fit the mold but by than it was too late as Gods like Tharizdun and Incabulos among others were already taken too players hearts so they became the myriad "unknown" pantheon. Finally monster appeared, I like Orcs, Drow, Dragons comments until someone realized money could be made so a new supplement.

That's how you get a 200 God list.

But if used well the Gods can provide another unique layer of background and motive for your player character as nebulous good cleric bad cleric, the game gets pretty bland if played right the Gods add direction and flavor even humor to a game.

I must applaud GVDammerung for the Ur-flan organization not only is it long overdo (I always thought the Flan were too passive) but for the logical and interesting philosophical basis of there belief system.

As for the "older" such as Iuz, Ahlissa, Pomarj or SB, I always thought a little thought and work can revive any villian. Such as SB in the supplement it is hinted that Korenth Zan is a sea change as a "direct action" faction after centuries of planning finally a generation came too power that wanted action but the best laid plans...

My spin: The SB failing is their cultural biases, they simply didn't expect these inferiors to fight back let alone succeed. I found the regional paragraphs valuable as it provide the overall goals for SB however given the shock of the internal and external revolts after the wars the SB has retreated from any major threat such as Ahlissa over Idee. The SB is experiencing perhaps for the first time a crisis of self-doubt, now that the SB has recieved a setback in its plans and philosophy how will it respond?

Comments?

Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:56 am informal

IMC we have involved the agents of the gods, but only recently have any gods gotten involved, and only on the periphery. An informal dichotomy has been created over the last few years of play...Powers and Gods. All Gods are Powers, but not all Powers are Gods. God hood, IMC, is defined by worship.

In the mists of time, there were powers... Tharzidun comes to mind, who had power in their own right. They were, are, and will be (barring being killed/destroyed/etc.) knowing nothing of death. Demons and Devils would also fall into this category, as would many outsiders.

Then there are those whose power is dependant upon worship. They are powerful because they are believed to be powerful. The more they are worshipped or the more vehemently they are worshipped, the more powerful they are. This is not an absolute equation; other gods can steal power, or garner enourmous power through wizardry or artifacts, etc.

IMC we also have small gods (See Legends & Lairs for this excellent system), who protect villages or hamlets, tribes of kobolds or sects. These groups wander through our stories, and the characters never know if they are rumor, myth, mistaken belief... and in some cases the worshippers do not either.

If a God looses all their worshippers, they can lose a significant amount of their power. Powers do not, but they generally are not as powerful as someone with even a few hundred followers.