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    Canonfire :: View topic - High Level NPCs
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    High Level NPCs
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 11, 2009
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    From: Gulf Breeze, Florida

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    Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:41 pm  

    [/quote]
    I also like the broad level range. A supergroup comprised entirely of archmages would be more at home in FR. In Greyhawk's theme of wheels within wheels, political connections and information networks are more important than who can cast the most Meteor Swarms. Sure, Otiluke can't cast ninth-level spells, but he's a Directing Oligarch. Otto isn't going to win any wizard duels, but no other wizard is ever going to be as close to the art, music, and culinary worlds (and his henchman is one of the highest-level priestesses of Boccob in the Flanaess!). Drawmij's undersea network is second to none and he probably dabbles in chronomancy.

    Regardless, all of these wizards can cast 30+ spells a day and own a grip of magic items. The initiative roll is probably more important than one or two ninth-level spells.[/quote]

    I agree with your comment on the broad level range within the circle and personally I really like the way the members of the circle are laid out including their backgrounds. Nystul is a personal favorite, especially his spells. I also agree that simply being able to cast 9th level spells doesn't necessarily put you miles beyond a wizard who can only cast 8th level spell...to a point. However, the ability to cast 9th level spells does give a wizard access to abilities/powers that not only far exceed a lesser wizard, but in fact test the boundaries of the game. Gate and Wish in particular give a wizard powers that far exceed anything an 8th level spell can match. Time Stop, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and Meteor Swarm are also pretty spectacular in different ways. Could an 16th level wizard ambush a 18th level one and kill him, yes. Would he get that chance though, possibly not. Also using Rary and Otiluke as an example (just by the difference in their levels), it's hard to imagine a fair fight between characters 7 levels apart. Would a 1st level PC be able to stand up to an 8th level one? Or going farther, could a 7th level PC stand against a 14th level one? Again it's not that I don't think Mordenkainen, Tenser, Rary, and Bigby wouldn't associate and work with the other members of the circle, it's just that as arch mages I think by their powers, knowledge, and abilities they wouldn't necessarily treat them as equals. Maybe within the circle there is an inner circle much like within the directing oligarchy in the City of Greyhawk. Regardless, as we have seen even within the confines of the circle there are grudges (Rary and Otiluke) and major differences in opinion between good vs. evil and long-term strategy (Mordenkainen and Tenser). On a side note I'm loving this discussion Happy
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
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    From: Dantredun, MN

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    Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:47 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I recall this being addressed in the letters column of Dragon Magazine originally, though I couldn't tell you which issue at the moment.

    Hmmm... PDF searches for "Vecna" "clone" and "cloned" don't bring up anything about the CoE in the Dragon archives besides the Wizards Three reference. Zeb addresses his Verbobonc contradictions, but that's it.

    Shocking off-topic side note: the original Dungeon writer's guidelines in Dragon #111 (July 1986) contain the following:
    "We ask that module designers not locate their adventures in the WORLD OF GREYHAWK Fantasy Setting and avoid using particular personalities, countries, politics, and so forth that relate directly to that game universe (e.g., Mordenkainen, St. Cuthbert, Vecna, etc.).
    We will reject modules of this sort without reading them."

    Ouch! They really were trying to kill GH for a period after ousting Gygax.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:51 pm  

    Wow.

    Rejecting GH modules out of hand? Lame!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:08 am  

    It's crazy that they were so focused on squashing Greyhawk during that period. I guess I can understand trying to distance the company from Gygax's ideas and home campaign in light of the issues at the time, but who knows what great material was lost during those years. At least it only lasted until 1989.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
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    Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:16 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    LGJ0 leaves two founding seats of the Circle empty. Leomund or Guy Gas fills one, but we still need one more. Tenser replaced the unnamed founder in 574, which is rather early for Leomund to be leaving for the Wars. Also the Player's Guide already said that Otiluke replaced Leomund in 576 (23). So, the explaner explorer mentioned in LGJ0 p6 can't be Leomund and we need another wizard anyway. Keoghtom fits the bill perfectly, from his stats in the Glossography to the description in the Players Guide (26) and LGJ0.

    ---CoE timeline---

    571CY founders: Mordnekainen, Bigby, Otto, Rary, Nystul, Drawmij, Bucknard (all LGJ0), Leomund/Guy Gas (Players Guide/OJ10), Keoghtom (me)

    574CY: Keoghtom --> Tenser (LGJ0)

    576CY: Leomund --> Otiluke (Player's Guide)

    579CY: Bucknard vanishes (PG)

    581CY: Jallarzi replaces Bucknard (PG)

    Prior to LGJ0, my understanding was that the original Co8 membership included Mordenkainen as one of the eight. Thus, I have the membership in 571 CY as Mordenkainen, Bigby, Bucknard, Drawmij, Leomund, Nystul, Otto, & Rary. Tenser's later addition coincided with Mordenkainen stepping back into his "man behind the curtain" role, overseeing and directing the other eight. I wish I could find my source, though. Confused Does that ring a bell for anyone?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:43 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Prior to LGJ0, my understanding was that the original Co8 membership included Mordenkainen as one of the eight. Thus, I have the membership in 571 CY as Mordenkainen, Bigby, Bucknard, Drawmij, Leomund, Nystul, Otto, & Rary. Tenser's later addition coincided with Mordenkainen stepping back into his "man behind the curtain" role, overseeing and directing the other eight. I wish I could find my source, though. Confused Does that ring a bell for anyone?



    It makes sense except for the fact that in 571 CY I think Drawmij, Nystul, and Otto would be pretty low level considering their levels 11 years later in 582 CY in the City of Greyhawk boxed set. Would wizards of around 7th-9th level (my estimate) have enough influence in their areas to have gathered Mordenkainen's attention? Also, according to The Adventure Begins, Mordenkainen's explorations of Maure Castle was sometime between 560 CY and 570 CY when he was 12th level. I'm leaning more towards 570 CY because I don't see it taking Mordenkainen 22 years to go from 12th level to 20th. Thoughts?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:10 pm  

    xo42 wrote:
    I don't see it taking Mordenkainen 22 years to go from 12th level to 20th. Thoughts?


    It depends on how active he was in adventuring at the time. If he was out there every day, either on a quest or on the prowl looking for a new quest (which assumes he'd find one fairly quickly), I could see him advancing those levels faster. But, if he was spending most of his time "at home", those 22 years might not be enough to advance from 12th to 20th level.
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