Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - THROMMEL!!! AARRGGH!!! (RttToEE spoilers- you were warned!)
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    THROMMEL!!! AARRGGH!!! (RttToEE spoilers- you were warned!)
    Author Message
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:49 am  
    THROMMEL!!! AARRGGH!!! (RttToEE spoilers- you were warned!)

    SPOILER ALERT for the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil!!!! You have been warned!!!

    As per Greyson's suggestion:

    WHAT'S THIS THROMMEL STUFF?!!! Confused Laughing

    I looked forward to getting a hold of "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" when I first found out it was in the works. Then when I finally got a copy of it, I saw what had been done to Thrommel and I was incredulous. Was it a good idea to make him a vampire? Not in the slightest, considering all of the probabilities that he would have been liberated from the ToEE in the original adventure by nearly everyone who went through it. Sure, some adventurers would likely have not even found him or killed him by mistake, but might have sought to return his body to the lands from which he came(causing a resurrection to be performed surely). The encounter was practically set up to result in Thrommel's rescue in some way, whether by seeing through the situation or by dealing with it according to the wiles of those who created the whole encounter(the bad guys).

    Seeing as he was rescued in my campaign, married the Lady Jolene, and united Furyondy and Veluna to fight against the upcoming rise of Iuz in the north during the Greyhawk wars, I have chosen to obliterate all mention of Thrommel from RttToEE. If I choose to leave a vampire therein, it will be renamed and given a new history. This at the very least should have been offered as an option by the writers of RttToEE, and and least one variance of the situation should have been included as well. It was a big oversight not to do this in my opinion. This could have been done with the original ToEE as well though.

    Changing details is easy enough to do, but the "Thrommel detail" has impacted all published Greyhawk material after the fact(which I probably do not need to state is very, very bad).

    While I think that RttToEE was very well done for the most part, this little bit has always rankled me a bit. It is also stated in RttToEE that Thrommel was captured at the end of the Battle of Emridy meadows by the forces of evil, which does not seem to be correct.

    "Only a few of the wicked leaders of the Temple managed to escape, and it is suspected that these individuals were responsible for the subsequent kidnapping and total disappearance of the Prince of Furyondy."

    - (from "A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting , 1983 Brown Box, p. 11).


    From the statement "subsequent kidnapping" one can conclude that Thrommel was later kidnapped by said individuals and not captured at the end of the battle. "Captured" and "kidnapped" are two very different things. The Battle was a great victory and Thrommel wasn't captured. Thrommel was betrothed(either before or after the battle- I do not know which, but its not too relevant to the situation) to Jolene of Veluna, and was subsequently kidnapped before the nuptials could take place.

    As an aside, in my campaign, the pc's rescued Thrommel, were later gifted with the subsequent rewards(rings, another item & a certain sword), were made Knights/Elders of the Land as applicable, and attended the wedding of Thrommel and Jolene as guests of honor. A rather exciting campaign event in itself. The adventure also ended with the implosion of the ToEE. A very memorable adventure for my players. A1-4 turned out to be just as good, partly because the captain and crew of The Ghoul showed up in Nulb during ToEE, and were taken off guard by the pc's and smacked about, setting up some very sweet revenge in Slavers. That little bit of fore planning is always worth the extra effort! Torturing the pc's at their oars became a daily morning ritual for the captain! The Ghoul is also still currently active in my campaign... Cool

    That's about it. I'm interested in your thoughts on this and how the events of ToEE played out in your campaign regarding Thrommel, and how it subsequently has impacted your use of other subsequent products that the fate of Thrommel might play a part in, which basically includes any produts that involve events occuring in the central Flanaess and RttToEE in particular.


    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:58 am; edited 3 times in total
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:27 am  
    Who is this Thrommel Guy?!?!?!?

    Cebrion,

    I have to agree, though I have never run extended campaigns in the area. T1-4 have always been a favorite of mine. However, I have always been somewhat baffled by both the continual revisiting of Thrommel, and his role in the events of the world as a whole.

    From my perspective his biography would be footnote: "1. Thrommel died, apparently a victam of kidnapping after the battle of Emridy Meadows, his death started a bunch of problems."

    Instead he seems to be the Greyhawks version of Prince Ferdinand, Alexander the Great, and Rasputin. "Thrommel, please die and stay dead. Be suceeded by somebody, somebody we might care about. You were nice enough, but not interesting enough to spend multiple lifetimes worrying about you."

    I have to say, I also cannot understand the large debate his death has engendered over the years among the online community. Thrommel, as a whole seems rather lackluster; no players that I have gamed with, in any campaign, have never been able to remeber his name consistently. He is always "That prince, you know the one who disappeared...."

    I understand that many people disagree, obviously many game designers at TSR/WOTC do. I just cannot for the life of me understand why.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:27 pm  

    I for one agree heartily with Cebrion in that Thrommel was rescued from the Temple, gave titles and gifts to the PC's and subsequent marriage to Lady Jolene of Veluna made for a much richer campaign than simply letting Thrommel come back as a vampire or linger on as a mystery.
    The real focus with Thrommel alive is that during the Prince's return the PC's will be called to his side as trusted agents and with Knightly titles be given lands and posts that will see them into intruigues and plots for games to come. Just simply letting him become a monster or just a footnote diminishes the potential for good gaming.
    Nonetheless, the one of the problems with using the older modules is the fact that many of these early modules were open ended and tended to exsist in void so that it fit easily in any given DM's gameworld. When development of game worlds began to encompass more story and plot, you see a tendancy to script out the endings as well as the potential of the PC's actions within the game world. While adventure modules like White Plume Mountain, Ghost Tower of Inverness and Tomb of Horrors have some relevance to the game world at large, they end at either the PC's alive and ready to move onto another adventure or dead and rolling up a new character. White Plume Mountain for instance mentions Sir Bluto sans Pite who is wanted in the River of Blood mass-murder case and mysterious disapperance that left the Royal Magician-Detectives baffled, but not much other than a 10,000 gp reward for his capture describes any action or consequence on his return.
    True that the DM is the arbiter and impetus for the ever-continuing game, but in the same vein Thrommels appearence at that time in gaming modules presented the DM with many options in the future of his game. Scripting if you will a continuation after the module is finished. If the PC's kill him then a change for ill fortunes in Furyondy takes place. If they free him, then again another turn in the opposite direction. Either way the DM makes his game world different from someone elses and in turn is given a unique twist should they continue to develop it into the future. That alone is enough to warrant many differences of opinion, but the mistake, as I see it is to write specifically to one outcome from this scripted event, in RttToEE, Thrommel is a vampire and that assumes that either the PC's failed in one case or ignored the event. That really solves little of the questions put forth in the first place and seems a bit of a dodge on providing any solid answers to what the real problem is.
    The real problem with putting Thrommel in the Temple is that it answered a question about Thrommels disapperance specifically in the GH campaign at that time, and was never answered officially so naturally it made for some interesting dilemma's depending on the PC's actions, and since its probable that any two given DM's will differ on what those outcomes will lead to in their home campaigns is the problem of putting situations like Thrommels presence in the Temple in first place.
    In any case Thrommel is and will be a factor in my home games and with that divergent course, my game will differ from 'canon' in many ways. But however I make no assertion of its validity or superiority (although it is more satisfying Smile ) it bears little on what others would do with it. It simply is an interesting thread and makes my game unique in certain aspects, and being from the same cut as many of the shared module experiences of the past days of TSR it stands as a memorable moment in my gaming career.
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:54 pm  

    Dethand wrote:
    I for one agree heartily with Cebrion in that Thrommel was rescued from the Temple, gave titles and gifts to the PC's and subsequent marriage to Lady Jolene of Veluna made for a much richer campaign than simply letting Thrommel come back as a vampire or linger on as a mystery.


    I disagree. The richer campaign is had by having Thrommel dead or undead. Saving Thrommel makes for the Hollywood happy ending but is just as meaningful.

    Thrommel dead makes he and Jolene epically tragic figures about whom tales, myths and legends will arise that enrich the setting generally and in their capacity to spawn adventures. The setting will also be enriched with a verisimultude that can be achieved only when things do not always turn out well and everyone does not always live happily ever after.

    Undead Thrommel remains an epically tragic figure that enriches the setting, as above, and now spawns even more possible adventures. Does he make a play for the throne of Furyondy, concealing his state? Does he go after his lost love Jolene? These are just the most obvious possibilities.

    And suppose Thrommel is alive or is returned to life and marries Jolene to unite Furyondy and Veluna. In the aftermath of the Greyhawk Wars, Furyondy on land and at sea is the preeminent super power of the Flanaess, held in check only by a stubborn insistance that Iuz is immortal and must always threaten the Flanaess without ever succeeding or failing. Do we really want Furyondy/Veluna to become more than a superpower, not just preeminent but dominating? Iuz is toast before a united Veluna/Furyondy and he has even admitted such. With Iuz' territory secured Furyondy/Veluna/Iuz will be a colossos astride the Flanaess. And they will be led by a tyrant in the making in the person of longevity potion swilling, "consolidation of power" seeking Belvor the Eternal.

    No. Thrommel is better off dead or undead without further consideration and, with further consideration, even better off dead or undead.

    The desire to see Thrommel alive is natural but a happy ending in this case would be most unhappy, in fact, for all concerned. Long "live" undead Thrommel!

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:16 pm  

    Quote:
    I disagree. The richer campaign is had by having Thrommel dead or undead. Saving Thrommel makes for the Hollywood happy ending but is just as meaningful.

    Thrommel dead makes he and Jolene epically tragic figures about whom tales, myths and legends will arise that enrich the setting generally and in their capacity to spawn adventures. The setting will also be enriched with a verisimultude that can be achieved only when things do not always turn out well and everyone does not always live happily ever after.


    See my disclaimer...
    The real problem with putting Thrommel in the Temple is that it answered a question about Thrommels disapperance specifically in the GH campaign at that time, and was never answered officially so naturally it made for some interesting dilemma's depending on the PC's actions, and since its probable that any two given DM's will differ on what those outcomes will lead to in their home campaigns is the problem of putting situations like Thrommels presence in the Temple in first place.
    In any case Thrommel is and will be a factor in my home games and with that divergent course, my game will differ from 'canon' in many ways. But however I make no assertion of its validity or superiority (although it is more satisfying ) it bears little on what others would do with it. It simply is an interesting thread and makes my game unique in certain aspects, and being from the same cut as many of the shared module experiences of the past days of TSR it stands as a memorable moment in my gaming career.

    Quote:
    And suppose Thrommel is alive or is returned to life and marries Jolene to unite Furyondy and Veluna. In the aftermath of the Greyhawk Wars, Furyondy on land and at sea is the preeminent super power of the Flanaess, held in check only by a stubborn insistance that Iuz is immortal and must always threaten the Flanaess without ever succeeding or failing.


    Now I never said it went on with out a hitch or problems all its own, but then falling back on the tragedy, angst and loss is just as boring and uninspiring to me as the great options for politics, scheming and diplomacy as a simple monster lurking about chewing the scenery. A much bigger mistake as claiming a 'hollywood happy' in my opinion. Smile

    Quote:
    Iuz is toast before a united Veluna/Furyondy and he has even admitted such

    I highly disagree with that. Iuz is ever as powerful and thus the ensuing mayhem and assassinations would be as furious as any he claimed..not to mention any heirs that the couple conceived. But thats the type of game that isnt so easily passed on as a happy ending. It leads to questions that propel the game instead of stagnate it as you suggest such an ending would.

    Quote:
    And they will be led by a tyrant in the making in the person of longevity potion swilling, "consolidation of power" seeking Belvor the Eternal.

    Well now for pathos..you have something there my freind. I would rather see the game continue on than become a excercise in angst and futility, the PC's are still a central force in keeping Thrommel and Jolene alive and seeing Iuz thwarted in his insidious plots. Surely that alone there is enough to keep any game going for years to come.
    But as my disclaimer any two DM's are going to see different choices and options, but at least you demonstrate that doing something with Thrommel is better than doing nothing. Happy
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
    Posts: 404
    From: Stansbury Park, Utah

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:13 pm  
    How Did He Get There?

    I don't have strong feelings whether or not Prince Thrommel has a presence in a campaign. I wonder how he came to become a 9th level Blackguard and vampire.

    If one were going on the assumption that he was never found after his abduction, what broke this former paladin's spirit? What seduced him to "earn" high levels of Blackguard? Was it the infection of vampirism? Or was Thrommel embittered and tainted, teetering on the edge by the time he fell victim to his condition as found in RttToEE?

    And, I'm still not certain about the circumstances surrounding his abduction. And, how and why did they get him into the hands of cultists in the Lortmils?[/i]
    _________________
    Don (Greyson)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
    Posts: 33


    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:05 pm  

    I was actually quite disappointed in Return to ToEE. In particular, I thought it leaned to much on rehashing old plot elements (Thrommel is an ideal example -- he's been done, move along).

    I think this is a real problem for Wizards -- every GH novel they came out with in the last few years was a 'Return to' novel. How about something new?

    Also irritating to me, there were too many of the new, peculiar 3E baddies. A strength of the old TSR stuff was that only a few new monsters and magic items would be introduced in each module to give it some unique twists. RttToEE shamelessly showcased as many of the new oddities as they could fit between the book covers.

    If I see any more half-(insert any monster here)'s in WotC products, I'm going to scream.

    To be fair, there were some good elements to it, but overall I was let down.

    Regards all,

    Jack
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:17 pm  
    Re: THROMMEL!!! AARRGGH!!! (RttToEE spoilers- you were warn

    Cebrion wrote:
    It is also stated in RttToEE that Thrommel was captured at the end of the Battle of Emridy meadows by the forces of evil, which does not seem to be correct.
    "Only a few of the wicked leaders of the Temple managed to escape, and it is suspected that these individuals were responsible for the subsequent kidnapping and total dissappearance of the Prince of Furyondy."(from "A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting , 1983 Brown Box, p. 11).
    From the statement "subsequent kidnapping" one can conclude that Thrommel was later kidnapped by said individuals and not captured at the end of the battle. "Captured" and "kidnapped" are two very different things. The Battle was a great victory and Thrommel wasn't captured. Thrommel was betrothed(either before or after the battle- I do not know which, but its not too relevant to the situation) to Jolene of Veluna, and was subsequently kidnapped before the nuptials could take place.


    I don't have RttToEE. My campaign is currently in CY 573 and I plan on running the original ToEE, with a chance for the players to rescue the prince. Actually, they were standing nect to the prince when he was captured, so they have a big stake in the issue. See http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=440

    But you are correct, the prince was definately neither captured nor kidnapped in the aftermath of the Battle of Emriddy meadows, as a glance at any timeline will show. The Battle was in CY 569, while the dissapearance of the Prince was in CY 573, four years later.

    I can forgive Carl Sargent his mistake of assuming the Prince of Furyondy and Provost of Veluna were different people. But given the endless criticism that engendered, it seems inexcusable that both author and editor of RttToEE would not know Thrommel's history.


    As far as how captured Thrommel became vampire Thrommel, see Tzelios' article "On Thrommel's Abduction" here on CF!
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=281
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 429
    From: Renton WA

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:01 am  

    Quote:
    it seems inexcusable that both author and editor of RttToEE would not know Thrommel's history.
    it is probable that Monte Cook simply didn't care.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:07 am  

    EGG’s answer to who kidnapped Thrommel puts everything in perspective, and perhaps Carl Sargent was privy to this info as well. His mistake in thinking the Prince of Furyondy/Provost of Veluna were two distinct people is pretty bad though, as ToEE lists these as titles held by Thrommel.
    Back to the initial problem, let’s take the timeline entry for instance. It is very blatant in how it should be read. All of the entries are this way.

    CY 573 Scarlet Brotherhood first reported; Prince of Furyondy/Provost of Veluna kidnapped.

    These are two separate events that happened in the SAME YEAR.

    Now take this entry:

    CY 446 Founding of the Iron League; Bandit Kingdoms sack Trigol; Rise of the Sea princes.

    These are separate events as well. If read as connected events the Iron League was founded such that they caused the Bandit kings to sack Trigol and initiate the Rise off the Sea princes. While the latter two events are definitely linked(the former initiated the latter), the Iron League had nothing to do with any of it according to all accounts(unless of coarse your dm says they did- that is the power of the dm).

    You see, the entire screw-up is over a simple thing like grammar. It’s called a semi-colon. It looks like this: ; It divides ideas within sentences. It is generally meant to be read/understood to mean "and" or "and also". Read the entry again this way.

    CY 573 Scarlet Brotherhood is first reported and also the Prince of Furyondy/Provost of Veluna is kidnapped.

    The slash could have been replaced by a hyphen to alleviate any confusion as to these being two different people. Regardless of EGG’s enlightenment as to who kidnapped Thrommel, the events in the timeline are presented as separate incidents that happen in the same year. The Scarlet Brotherhood’s direct involvement in the kidnapping of Thrommel, and Nyrond’s employment of them to enact the deed, is left unsaid for further campaign development. Hanging plot strings are good. The original timeline was probably written as it was purposely as a clue to who kidnapped the prince. Bad coincidences and the Scarlet Brotherhood seem to go hand in hand after all.

    As to the undead Thrommel being better for campaign development, this would prove to be true if you liked to include characters with a feel right out of Victorian Romantic literature in your campaign. Straahd and Lord Soth are prime examples of such. Thrommel would simply come off as a conglomeration of the two, bieng the vampire fallen paladin who pines for his lost love, a blatantly literary and Hollywood theme if ever there was one. It is old and overdone already, but what isn’t? It’s all a matter of what is of interest to you. Neither is particularly less imaginative, less Hollywood, or better than the other. I think that the Ravenloft feel should be left in Ravenloft. Of course, there is the "in for "Thrommel Reborn!" Everybody eventually ends up in the Realm of Dread.

    ToEE doesn’t necessarily have to end with the whole Star Wars scene of Jolene and Thrommel giving medals to the adventurers. This event most likely occurs mid-adventure anyways(when the party of knights and elves seek out the pc's), along with the wedding, and with the pc’s as guests of honor. It is the best place to do so, without doing the whole Hollywood ending thing. After the adventure is through, the Golden Skull is either put in a numbered box and stored in a warehouse a’ la Raiders of the Lost Ark, or it is destroyed. That is the real Hollywood ending. At the end of things, the pc’s are knights/elders and Thrommel’s reappearance need not be made the Hollywood ending, but it launches further campaign events as a whole. Everyone now views the pc’s as agents of Furyondy-Veluna, and lots of people don’t really like those guys very much, mainly those people who summon evil things that eat babies as finger food. And Furyondy- Veluna probably seeks to make use of the pc’s by having granted them titles and lands such that they are in no small measure beholden to the rulers of the lands of Furyondy/Veluna. They saved the prince after all and they must be damned stalwart heroes to have done that, so what else can they have them do.
    It is of note that all of this happens before the fall of the Horned Society, which never was given pride of place in any adventure or publsihed campaign plot(which is really sad) up to the publishing of ToEE, so Furyondy-Veluna did still have two major enemies in the North and were little trusted by the Shield Landers on top of that.

    The main point of contention about the whole Thrommel as a vampire thing for me is that in nearly all campaigns, Thrommel will either be killed or rescued from the Temple by most adventuring groups, and not be spirited away by minions of evil to later be made a vampire. The encounter is purposely written to end in one of the previous results. One in ten groups of players probably never acutally find the location. For them the RttToEE Thrommel fits well into things; for everyone else out there it is junk. It is this little thing that leads to a skewed storyline in most campaigns, and has caused so much discussion. Thrommel becoming a vampire is not even a remotely obvious outcome of the ToEE being sacked/destroyed. Its presentation is more more of a novelty. If you want novelties you include Otis, Burne, and Rufus and not the character who's death/rescue is practically assured in the original adventure.


    ***As an aside, Furyondy is not the great sea power- they are the great lake power. If they ventured forth into open battle on the sea against the entirety of the naval forces controlled by the Scarlet Brotherhood they would be annihilated. If they allied with Keoland against the Scarlet Brotherhood's combined forces, then you'd have a real fight.


    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 28, 2004
    Posts: 84


    Send private message
    Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:54 pm  

    ToEE was one my groups favorite modules when it came out. The party managed to rescue Thrommel and recieve thier rewards. Sadly of those knighted 3 out of the 4 given that honor were killed during the Greyhawk wars. One of them while standing over a wounded Thrommel during a major offensive by Iuz's forces. He died but lasted long enough so that reinforcements could drag the prince away. When I got Return I wondered what it would be like as my group didnt and still doesnt always follow the published material as gospel. All in all I liked it but it does have flaws and the way that Thrommel was treated in it was disapointing. Dont know why the decided to treat him that way but I guess they have their reasons.


    The Maraudar
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 429
    From: Renton WA

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:55 pm  

    actually the writers of RToEE HAD to assume that the party never found Thrommel in the temple... this is simply because canonically Thrommel has never returned to Furyondy... and the only time canon truly matters is when you are writing for publication...

    I think it would have been better just to leave Thrommel out of Return entirly, actually, but given that they did include him they did it in the only way that they could that didn't conflict with officail canon.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 28, 2004
    Posts: 84


    Send private message
    Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:45 pm  

    actually the writers of RToEE HAD to assume that the party never found Thrommel in the temple... this is simply because canonically Thrommel has never returned to Furyondy... and the only time canon truly matters is when you are writing for publication.


    I'll grant you that. The only problem that I have with it is that in the first one they tell what happens I.E. Jolena and marriage his going off to to the old homestead and meeting with his Da and eventually the rewards given to the players. The way it was wrote seems as if you were supposed to find him. at least it did to me. Later under different people this changed (right or worng is not an issue) and it led to some disapointment with myself and my group Sad. I do agree with you though that it would have been better to leave him out altogether.

    The Maraudar
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:44 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    As to the undead Thrommel being better for campaign development, this would prove to be true if you liked to include characters with a feel right out of Victorian Romantic literature in your campaign.


    As Dethand noted in part, and I agree, a dead Thrommel is probably better. Barring a dead Thrommel, an undead Thrommel works fine. The above quote works for me on that score but an undead Thrommel need not be limited to the classically Victorian. Taking a note from Anne Rice, perhaps Thrommel is Lestat to Drelnza's "Queen of the Damned?" I think such an alliance holds great potential.

    Vampires are great villains but poorly explored in Greyhawk. If Thrommel is a vampire we have then enough fodder to work with - Kas, Drelnza, Thrommel. These are names to conjur with. Each is more than a name, a brief biography and a single appearence (probably in Iuz the Evil).

    Undead Thrommel has vast potential.

    Alive Thrommel is alter bound and set to create a dominant superpower to be followed by a civil war if Belvor won't step aside, which would then let Iuz back in the game, for if "Velunyondy" comes to be, Iuz is as good as gone.

    Iuz cannot stand against the combined might of the Flanaess's largest and most battle tested army in Furyondy fully allied and merged with the largest Theocracy, Veluna, now supported by the Shieldlanders and with financial support from Dyvers, Greyhawk and the Duchy of Urnst. Iuz is over extended in the Bandit Kingdoms and the former Horned Society lands and has lost the fiendish allies that made his "gains" possible. By itself, with but aid from Veluna, Furyondy has thrown back Iuz from Furyondy, the Vesve and parts of the Shieldlands. Iuz is in retreat and it isn't going to get any better unless someone invents another "soul husks" to artificially prop up the "sick man" of the Flanaess.

    And if one would kill Thrommel to avoid "Velunyondy" then why "save" him to begin with?

    No. Undead Thrommel may not be the best idea but it is far from the worst and much better than a "rescued" Thrommel. But to each their own campaign.

    IMO

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:47 pm  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    actually the writers of RToEE HAD to assume that the party never found Thrommel in the temple... this is simply because canonically Thrommel has never returned to Furyondy... and the only time canon truly matters is when you are writing for publication...

    I think it would have been better just to leave Thrommel out of Return entirly, actually, but given that they did include him they did it in the only way that they could that didn't conflict with officail canon.


    As has already been established, the writers of RttToEE didn't care enough about canon to keep straight when it actually was that Thrommel was captured. They also ignored another piece of post ToEE canon - The Return of the Eight. Among Tenser's effects listed in that module is a burned and battered signet ring from Thrommel. The clear implication is that Thrommel was released at some point by some nameless party of adventurers. On his way back to claim the throne he was jumped by an assassination party - whether Iuz, Iggwilv, etc. and his material body destroyed. The ring may the key to recovering him now.

    As has been stated, if Thrommel had been released he would now be the King of a United Furyondy-Veluna. Since he is not, RotE took the position that he must have been destroyed shortly after his release.

    But then RttToEE ignored this in creating the vampire Thrommel.

    All of this is laid out, by the way, in the article by Tzelios that I linked to above. I recommend anyone following this thread to read it!
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:15 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Alive Thrommel is alter bound and set to create a dominant superpower to be followed by a civil war if Belvor won't step aside, which would then let Iuz back in the game, for if "Velunyondy" comes to be, Iuz is as good as gone.

    And if one would kill Thrommel to avoid "Velunyondy" then why "save" him to begin with?

    No. Undead Thrommel may not be the best idea but it is far from the worst and much better than a "rescued" Thrommel. But to each their own campaign.

    IMO

    GVD



    My campaign is currently set in CY 593. I find it highly unlikely that, as in the official campaign, Furyondy has gone 20 years without Belvor naming an heir.

    In my campaign, Iuz intends to hold on to Thrommel just long enough for Belvor to name another heir. With luck and manipulation, this will require a civil war to force Belvor, since Iuz is suppying Belvor with true information that Thrommel is alive.

    After an heir has been named, Iuz will likely release Thrommel, resulting in (another) civil war as Thrommel has to defeat his rival and, as noted above, possibly his father to claim the throne. Thrommel may also have to fight against whoever the Plar of Veluna forced Jolene to marry in order to reassert his claim to her and her lands in Veluna.

    So, what good is an alive Thrommel? An alive Thrommel will put my players in the position of having to take sides and fight against former allies in Furyondy and Veluna. Fights between "good" parties are more interesting in terms of party plotlines than fights against an evil everyone agrees is evil.

    Then, when Furyondy and Veluna have spent themselves on a series of civil wars, then Iuz will invade following the events of The Greyhawk Wars but will probably be more successful.


    As far as who else would want Thrommel imprisoned and then released, why, Mordenkainen, the self-righteous enforcer of the Circle of Eight. In my campaign he assisted in the capture of Thrommel to head off the possibility of a united Furyondy-Veluna. If Thrommel still has not been released by the time of the Greyhawk Wars, Mordenkainen will make sure SOMEONE finds him in order to counter the menace of Iuz. Balance is a harsh mistriss.
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:43 pm  

    Personally I always felt Thrommel was dead.

    Although Kirt did touch on a concern I always had, why did Belvor not name a successor for 20 years?

    My rationale: Belvor was grieving with no proof he decided not to declare his son dead, too painful, however the wars convinced Belvor that an heir was needed hence the comments in FTA that Belvor is rumored to be romantically linked with the Countess of the Gold County.

    Thrommel being alive is just too romantic comedy style for Greyhawk, come on, evil has to be victorious sometimes, not every gain in the greyhawk wars should be reversed, not every occupied needs to successfully rebel or every damsel be saved!!

    How dull and boring...where is the challenge!!

    When I played I rather enjoyed it when everything didn't go my way, it made the sweet taste of victory mean more when I knew next time could be the bitter taste of defeat Wink .
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:08 am  

    "Upon his(Thrommel's) marriage to Jolene of Veluna, the two states would have become a joint entity, the Archcleric ruling in matters spiritual, and the Prince(ascending the throne to become King) ruling in matters temporal."

    ---A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fanstasy Setting(1983), p. 11

    Belvor was going to abdicate the throne for the good of both nations, letting his son take over as King, though he'd probably continue helping Thrommel rule, even if in a diminished capacity. So, no civil wars on this acoount.
    The seven main noble families of Furyondy are always maneuvering politically with one another, particularly the northern lords versus the southern lords, so not naming an heir for twenty years might lead to some nasty stuff beween the noble families, civil war being a definite possibility. I find it funny that nobody "official" has adressed this yet, as apparently do many others here.

    "All of Thrommel's rescuers are later sought out by a strong party of humans and elves(including clerics, magic-users, fighters, and men-at-arms) some 5-8 weeks later. These persons ask the characters to accompany them to Mitrik, chief city of Veluna, where Thrommel is pledging himself to her Noble Ladyship Jolene of Veluna. At this ceremony..."

    ---Temple of Elemental Evil, p. 86

    The point of this quote is that if Thrommel is rescued, he actually does make it back to safety(unless you, as a diabolical DM, have special plans for the shining prince, of course).

    Whatever the outcome, not enough was really done with the Thrommel situation until it was too late, and then it was done poorly(in my opinion)and even incorrectly(ie. he was kidnapped four years after the Battle of Emridy Meadows; not captured at the end of that battle- fact). Iuz had the various writers humping his leg with glee, but not much energy was given to the other side of the coin in my opinion.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:04 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    "Upon his(Thrommel's) marriage to Jolene of Veluna, the two states would have become a joint entity, the Archcleric ruling in matters spiritual, and the Prince(ascending the throne to become King) ruling in matters temporal."

    ---A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fanstasy Setting(1983), p. 11

    Belvor was going to abdicate the throne for the good of both nations, letting his son take over as King, though he'd probably continue helping Thrommel rule, even if in a diminished capacity. So, no civil wars on this acoount.


    That was the plan, that was what was going to happen...

    But imagine Thrommel is released years after his capture.
    Can the King be sure that it really is his son? Can he convince suspicious nobles? What if Iuz has managed to place some lingering aura of evil over the Prince - even something as simple as a curse.

    If it has been several years, how long will it take to bring the Prince up to speed on the political situation?

    If the Prince has to reclaim Jolene, that would delay his coronation.

    At the very least, Belvor should have second thoughts about just stepping down the moment the Prince shows up. There may be a lengthy probabtion period before the coronation. And many nobles may be pressuring the King not to do it.

    If Thrommel is not inclined to wait, he may have to fight against nobles or even his father to establish his claim.
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1477
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

    Send private message
    Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:58 pm  

    In the three times that I have ran ToEE, no one has ever found Thrommel; the only times I've heard that happen is when a DM has provided hints or otherwise handed Thrommel to the players.

    As far as I'm concerned, he could have remained in stasis in RttToEE and that would have been fine by me: a relic from a bygone age, forgotten even by those who captured him and desired his downfall (well, except for Iuz, I'm sure).

    Consider this, as well: who in the Temple could have put Thrommel into a stasis? Who has the power to use permanent illusions? Iuz could possibly have performed some of these effects using the Boneheart and his limited wish power, but that seems to be pushing it a bit IMO (especially since he may not even have had a Boneheart in 573 CY...). This line of speculation synchs up nicely with the idea that the Co8 kidnapped Thrommel at the behest of the SB, though why the SB would turn him over to Iuz remains a mystery to me.
    _________________
    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:25 pm  

    A simple commune spell would answer all questions associated with the legitimacy of the prince, and whether or not there was any lingering evil around him. Call me crazy, but you might find a cleric willing to do so, say his potential father-in-law the Archcleric of Veluna? I'd say he wouldn't want to see his daughter marry anybody impure.

    With regards to finding Thrommel, I have gone through the adventure and found him, plus the group I DM'd through it found him as well(no clues of any kind were given to them). Maybe our group searches for things more so than most groups. With the addition of the detect secret doors spell in 3e, Thrommel would be even easier to find if the adventure was run now.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 20, 2004
    Posts: 119
    From: Huntington, WV

    Send private message
    Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:02 pm  

    I'm not sure what direction my party is going to take when they end up in the module. Two of them (brothers) are sons of a Furyondy Baronet, and may very well recognize Thrommel even as a vampire. They'll pr'bly want to return him to his father's side, all the while wanting a cure for vampiricism(sp?). Anyone know what that would be? (I have some ideas...)

    AS for the events after, they'll have to find a cure as Thrommel is hidden from view and the public, lest his condition become known. And if it was... well, I sincerely doubt anyone is going to follow a recently "cured" vampire and fallen paladin!
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:35 am  

    grodog wrote:
    In the three times that I have ran ToEE, no one has ever found Thrommel; the only times I've heard that happen is when a DM has provided hints or otherwise handed Thrommel to the players.


    C'mon..."On three, in six, lies nine..." It can't be more obvious? This clue alone should lead players straight to the Prince, secure in the knowledge that he is not a vampire, but a 9th level Paladin Lord. ;)

    grodog wrote:

    Consider this, as well: who in the Temple could have put Thrommel into a stasis? Who has the power to use permanent illusions? Iuz could possibly have performed some of these effects using the Boneheart and his limited wish power, but that seems to be pushing it a bit IMO (especially since he may not even have had a Boneheart in 573 CY...). This line of speculation synchs up nicely with the idea that the Co8 kidnapped Thrommel at the behest of the SB, though why the SB would turn him over to Iuz remains a mystery to me.


    Unlikely that Iuz would have had a functioning boneheart in CY 573, since that was only three years after his release from imprisonment. But if you follow the official timeline, you are left with the old cheastnut of how Iuz assisted in the construction of the Temple while he was imprisoned. If he could do that, I suppose he could assemble and train his Boneheart while imprisoned, too.

    IMC Thrommel was captured by Mordenkainen and sold to Iuz. The Boneheart and Iuz created the stasis effect and the permanent illusion and then shipped him off to the Temple. And, possbly, they added another effect: Thrommel is under a permanent enchantment rendering it impossible for him to leave the Temple until Zuggtmoy is released. Since Iuz doesn't know how to free her, he figures that some adventurers will do it for him.
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:49 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    A simple commune spell would answer all questions associated with the legitimacy of the prince, and whether or not there was any lingering evil around him. Call me crazy, but you might find a cleric willing to do so, say his potential father-in-law the Archcleric of Veluna? I'd say he wouldn't want to see his daughter marry anybody impure.


    Canon Hazan, ArchCleric of Veluna is not the father of Jolene. The Plar of Veluna (the most imortant of the Velunese nobles) is.

    Mere facts aside, certainly the real father of Jolene, Belvor, and any number of other people would be interested in casting communes on the recovered Prince. There would be several clerics available of sufficient level. But at least in my campaign, that would not work. Members of royal families, IMO, should have potent protections that keep them from being targeted by such spells. Whether as mundane as an amulet of protection against location and detection, as high-tech as a mind blank made permanent, or by fiat such as "divine blessing", such powerful NPC's simply should not be targets. Otherwise they would be long dead or charmed or permanently spied on.

    My PC's are currently on the trail of the Prince, trying to find who captured him and why. For the problems his "untargetability" is giving them, see

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=463
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:58 am  

    grodog wrote:
    IThis line of speculation synchs up nicely with the idea that the Co8 kidnapped Thrommel at the behest of the SB, though why the SB would turn him over to Iuz remains a mystery to me.


    Yes, I certainly don't see the SB turning the Prince over. As far as I know, the only connection to the SB was that the first reporting of the SB and the dissapearance of the Prince appeared on the same line of the WoG timeline. I don't recall any official connection.

    IMC Iuz was just becoming aware of SB agents in Furyondy through his own agents. He deliberately implicated the SB in the kidnapping of the Prince by planting false leads, although they had nothing to do with it.

    This served several purposes - since Iuz was the obvious suspect, it led to some doubt about the real perpetrator. It diverted attention away from him and on to the SB. And it allowed his agents in Furyondy to begin actively going after SB agents while maintaining their cover as loyal Furyondians. The SB would have gone secret for longer if Iuz had not "outed" them to cover his role in the kidnapping of the Prince.
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 01, 2004
    Posts: 74


    Send private message
    Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:05 am  

    I find it hard to conceive with the resources available to Nobles in Furyondy and Veluna along with non nobles who want to be Nobles or have access to that political power would not devote resources to finding the missing prince.

    **Spoiler*** Particularly with the CLUEs section and DREAMS (No communes, legend lores etc.) just Dreams in to the heroes in ToEE with the prince located nearby.

    Hero of the hour for several weeks. Even years later can cost on that single event.

    Consider Return of the Eight and the missing prince's signet ring (It never said it was the signet ring the prince was wearing when he disappeared while seeming to imply that was the case. So you could take it either way in a campaign). It implies Tenser was looking doubtful he was the only mage.

    Particularly in 3/3.5 with lessened God Sensing Blocking. I don't see Incublos or Nerull spending years wasting one of their 20 blocking usages constantly hiding a mortal prince. Maybe just me but I like to think Greater Powers have Greater Divine agendas that do not hinge on a single mortal that involes hiding him day to day year to year.

    Consider all the communes Rao, Heironeous, Istus and even Beory and Boccob receive about this missing prince. I don't see sequester blocking a mortal from a power particularly a Greater power.

    Hey Heironeous is Prince Avras dead? IMO opinion really stretching things if he doesn't know as his patron power.

    When the Where is he commune draws a blank for a single answer like "Verbobonc" start playing 20 questions. Is he on Oerth or What other place or planet is he on? What continent? What country? Nearest what major landmark or city? North, West, East or South? Approximately how many miles?....

    Consider a Wish or a Miracle. They should have a chance of summoning the prince's body from where ever it is somewhere between 35% and 65% not unreasonable IMO particularly if possessing princes personal things or a lock of hair (Probably at least a few tokens hanging around somewhere). Doubtful there would be only one attempt, should be quite a few attempts. Even limited wish could probably provide a 1% to 3% chance.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:47 pm  

    castlemike wrote:
    Particularly in 3/3.5 with lessened God Sensing Blocking. I don't see Incublos or Nerull spending years wasting one of their 20 blocking usages constantly hiding a mortal prince. Maybe just me but I like to think Greater Powers have Greater Divine agendas that do not hinge on a single mortal that involes hiding him day to day year to year.

    Consider all the communes Rao, Heironeous, Istus and even Beory and Boccob receive about this missing prince. I don't see sequester blocking a mortal from a power particularly a Greater power.



    As I said above, I expect the Prince has some permanent protection from location, granted to him by the same Powers that would be called on with Commune or other spells.

    Even better, IMC, the Temple is under permanent interdiction by the forces of good. When they sealed it, they put a permanent block on any scrying in the Temple, in order to keep anyone from investigating how Zuggy could be released. Thus, it is the perfect place to hide the Prince, because the good gods have already insured that no one can look there magically.

    Ask about the Prince with any of the spells you mention, and you just get a blank.
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
    Posts: 73
    From: Ballarat, Australia

    Send private message
    Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:26 pm  

    Vampire Thrommel is brilliant design.

    * Canonical Greyhawk does not have Thrommel rescued.
    * One of the "known" pieces of gamer lore is Thrommel disguised as a vampire in ToEE.

    So, Monte throws a huge curve ball at the players. They find Thrommel as a vampire... but he's not disguised as one! He is one!

    :)

    Cheers!
    _________________
    Merric Blackman
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 14, 2002
    Posts: 180
    From: Patra, Greece

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:03 am  

    Quote:
    As has already been established, the writers of RttToEE didn't care enough about canon to keep straight when it actually was that Thrommel was captured. They also ignored another piece of post ToEE canon - The Return of the Eight. Among Tenser's effects listed in that module is a burned and battered signet ring from Thrommel. The clear implication is that Thrommel was released at some point by some nameless party of adventurers. On his way back to claim the throne he was jumped by an assassination party - whether Iuz, Iggwilv, etc. and his material body destroyed. The ring may the key to recovering him now.

    All of this is laid out, by the way, in the article by Tzelios that I linked to above. I recommend anyone following this thread to read it!


    Thank you Kirt. Just note that if you go to my article, you got also to read the comments. This Thrommel abduction article was my first submission to CF! Actually, thanks to Kirt, this Rot8 reference was clarified. Kirt posted a comment to this article that I had ignored, which is the Rot8 reference. I knew about the reference, but I did not know what to do it, it seemed problematic. After all the article had to do only with the abduction plot. In reality the Rot8 was optional, but still it is very important for the resolution of Thrommel's situation after 579 CY (the time ToEE takes place).

    It is quite interesting, since the Rot8 reference talks about a platinum ring (not a gold one like the ring Thrommel was wearing in ToEE). This platinum (signet) ring once had a Soul Gem! (The Soul Gem is missing.) My explanation is that this second, more ornate ring, would reflect the new greater status that Thrommel would have acquired after the unification. In addition, this new platinum ring was made with a Soul Gem to protect the new King, given the old prophecy. The new platinum ring has to be placed with Thrommel, in a pocket on his clothes, at ToEE, in 579 CY, in vampire illusion status.
    _________________
    "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 14, 2002
    Posts: 180
    From: Patra, Greece

    Send private message
    Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:51 am  

    grodog wrote:
    Consider this, as well: who in the Temple could have put Thrommel into a stasis? Who has the power to use permanent illusions? Iuz could possibly have performed some of these effects using the Boneheart and his limited wish power, but that seems to be pushing it a bit IMO (especially since he may not even have had a Boneheart in 573 CY...). This line of speculation synchs up nicely with the idea that the Co8 kidnapped Thrommel at the behest of the SB, though why the SB would turn him over to Iuz remains a mystery to me.


    Gygax conception was that the Scarlet Brotherhood was the tool of abduction, hired by Nyrond. After the abduction, Nyrond sold Thrommel to Iuz. It makes sense, given the entries in the 83 boxed set on disappearance of Prince Thrommel/Provost of Veluna and first report of the Brotherhood in Nyrond, all happened in 573 CY. Temporal locality leads to tautology!

    When I wrote <a href="
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=281&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0">On Thrommel's Abduction</a> I had to give more details than the above Gygax statement. Not always Gygax statements do help, however this particular one is completely logical. Actually, I also needed the detail for my campaign.

    It was not difficult to identify the Scarlet Brotherhood agents involved in abduction. Spatial locality of the Slave Lords directs to them. In fact, it was their first operation, shortly prior to their official constitution.

    I chose Gellor to be Nyrond's agent, since this agent should have been a formidable one. And yes, to return to Allan's idea, Gellor is an agent of Balance too. Yes, for the abduction, Balance and the closely related Co8 are implicated, albeit in a shoft way.

    However, Co8 may have strongly acted on a later phase:
    The permanent illusion is due to the workings of Iggwilv. She is behind the liberation of Zuggtmoy (see Artifact of Evil), duping Mordenkainen to send Robilar. She is also constantly watching over and "protecting" her son Iuz (see for exapmple, Artifact of Evil, and Iuz the Evil).
    _________________
    "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 01, 2004
    Posts: 74


    Send private message
    Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:22 am  

    Kirt wrote:
    castlemike wrote:
    Particularly in 3/3.5 with lessened God Sensing Blocking. I don't see Incublos or Nerull spending years wasting one of their 20 blocking usages constantly hiding a mortal prince. Maybe just me but I like to think Greater Powers have Greater Divine agendas that do not hinge on a single mortal that involes hiding him day to day year to year.

    Consider all the communes Rao, Heironeous, Istus and even Beory and Boccob receive about this missing prince. I don't see sequester blocking a mortal from a power particularly a Greater power.



    As I said above, I expect the Prince has some permanent protection from location, granted to him by the same Powers that would be called on with Commune or other spells.

    Even better, IMC, the Temple is under permanent interdiction by the forces of good. When they sealed it, they put a permanent block on any scrying in the Temple, in order to keep anyone from investigating how Zuggy could be released. Thus, it is the perfect place to hide the Prince, because the good gods have already insured that no one can look there magically.

    Ask about the Prince with any of the spells you mention, and you just get a blank.


    I don't know what type of campaign you play 1,2 or 3/3.5 or what source books you have. Personally I had problems with the Prince being missing in 2E year after year and more in 3/3.5 with the resources available to Two Powerful Countries along with many others. We aren't talking kidnapping and hiding Joe Blow the adventurer year after year. Akin to kidnapping the president and ignoring the effects that would cause, year 7 he's still missing what do you mean what are we doing about it?

    You are Iuz and want to get rid of the prince in a campaign. Keep it simple. Trap his soul in a soul gem and either wear him as a piece of jewelry or stashed away in your personal treasure vault. Now let people try to get it and him. Hidden in plain sight and for all practical purposes unattainable especially if you use his organizational resources. He was pretty week mechanically in 2E but has some improved stats as a DR3 Demi-god in 3E from Dragon.

    That Divination Protection keeping him from being detected is pretty lame IMO. It alludes at best to demi-powers (Iuz). The same source ToEE says Iuz a demi-power can't find his own Lover Zuggtmoy who is magically connected to his own ToEE via the Golden Orb of Death (an artifact that the two of them have invested much power in and weakens the both of them to different degrees upon it's destruction along with the Elemental Nodes). It also cites Iuz makes personal visits to ToEE and there is a throne that her worshippers can use to communicate with her but he can't find her or his mother after years and years of searching. I don't see Iuz possessing the power to hide the Prince from the Greater Powers of Oerth.

    Consider the cost of a permanent sequester or mindblank. Sure it hides you from mortal but not the Gods. That is what Commune taps with those single answer questions Divine Knowledge.

    Additionally it's not only the good guys looking for him what about the BBEGs wanting a pardon and some respectablility and can use Contact other planes to talk with Demon Lords and other Planar BBEGs.

    IMO there was enough vagueness with the rules governing powers that you could go that direction in your own campaign if you wished. IMO the Four 2E FR God Books did a great job on clarifying the powers of Gods in a campaign world. Particularly as many of the Elven, Gnomish and Dwarven Powers are the same which gave a good yardstick for what a Power could do mechanically in a Greyhawk campaign just by substituting a Few Names.

    IMO mortals do not possess and do not have the power to hide from Divine Sensing as per Dieties and Demi-gods which has rules on how it works and how it works between Greater Powers and Demi-Powers in 3/3.5.

    A commune spell to a Greater Power particularly someone like Rao, Boccob or Istus should have that knowledge in 3/3.5 and I thought it would pretty questionable that they wouldn't have it in 2E using the Four accessories for Powers from FR.

    I specifically listed the Greater Powers as only a Greater Power can block another Greater Power but they are limited to 20 usages in 3/3.5 where it used to be unlimited in 2E. IMO a Greater Power has better things to do than constantly block the location of a single mortal day after day year after year.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
    Posts: 666


    Send private message
    Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:26 pm  

    Greater gods have better things to do than answer trivial questions from pesky mortals, too. Commune only contacts some lowlife angelic servitor who got stuck with the job as punishment duty. ;p

    Seriously, the big problem with your assumptions is that *if* such things can be answered in that way, there are NO secrets in the world. Divination capability is the single most disruptive feature of a magical word, bar none. Regardless of any ill concieved D&D rules, it is absolutely essential that divinations be neutered as a practical tool. They are always unreliable, awkward, and confusing in myth and literature. For very good reason.

    Even "simple" scans like detect evil and detect lie would radically alter the functioning of society if allowed to be as common as implied by the D&D rules. The history of the world is built on lies, misunderstandings, and mysteries.

    In myth, where there were oracles, they got people in trouble far more than they solved anything. Croesus asked the Delphi Oracle what would happen if he attacked the Persian empire. He was told "A great empire would be destroyed". So he attacked, and *his* empire was destroyed.

    That's the kind of issue that use of communes and similar divine info sources should be resulting in. Not twenty questions to resolve the latest political intrigue neatly.

    Aloha
    Vormaerin
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 01, 2004
    Posts: 74


    Send private message
    Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:36 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Greater gods have better things to do than answer trivial questions from pesky mortals, too. Commune only contacts some lowlife angelic servitor who got stuck with the job as punishment duty. ;p

    Seriously, the big problem with your assumptions is that *if* such things can be answered in that way, there are NO secrets in the world. Divination capability is the single most disruptive feature of a magical word, bar none. Regardless of any ill concieved D&D rules, it is absolutely essential that divinations be neutered as a practical tool. They are always unreliable, awkward, and confusing in myth and literature. For very good reason.

    Aloha
    Vormaerin


    Thanks for the post. I agree Commune is powerful. As I understand it Commune no longer longer contacts a Flunkie. You contact the demiurge of the Power. Sort of like doing an online search. Make the request/enter the data and get a Yes, No Ummmm.... response related to it's portfolio.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 09, 2001
    Posts: 655


    Send private message
    Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:38 pm  

    I know I posted some thoughts on this long ago, before these forums existed. Probably lost to the mists of the time now. Anyway, in my new campaign, starting in 580 CY, the players began with T1-4. Well, they started with some other stuff and eventually got to T1, but I digress.

    They actually found Thrommel on their own; don't ask me how. Probably know the original by heart! Anyway, I had, totally by accident, just discovered a great way to deal with this, as I didn't really want him found.

    I use the 4 Encyclopedia Magica volumes quite a bit for magic items, as they allow me to constantly use stuff with which the players are not familiar. Anyway, I roll on the random chart in the back for a potion, and I roll 000; I am not kidding. 1 in a 1000. Well, they find Wine of Eternity. I'd never heard of it, so I check it out. It originally was from Ruins of Undermountain, and it basically puts one to sleep for a year. Every year they get a save to wake up, but otherwise, nothing can wake them short of a Wish.

    The players found this (without knowing what it was at the time) in Falrinth's quarters. Rather than use his listed potions, I had rolled new ones. I do this with lots of items, just to keep them always guessing. Anyway, this was one, and it actually fit pretty well.

    The temple gave the drink to Prince Thrommel, putting him to sleep (the actual cause of the stasis never was revealed anyway.). Then they simply placed an Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location around his neck. Simple and effective. Why didn't they just kill him? That hasn't been revealed, and I honestly haven't answered it myself yet.

    Anyway, the party did free him, and then they were able to get him out. They ran into some of the NPCs who were helping them and together helped return him to Furyondy, where he's still sleeping. They finally figured out what the potion was, and then made the connection to his sleep, but that doesn't help since there's no cure. I just ignore the "short of a wish" thing, not that it's so easy to get a Wish spell anyway.

    So, that's what just happened to Thrommel in my new campaign. Yes, he was rescued, but it's a bitter victory in that he's not really saved yet. How it will turn out is anyone's guess!
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 09, 2001
    Posts: 655


    Send private message
    Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:39 pm  

    OK, I'll revive this since I just finished posting an update in my Campaign Journal in which the party found him. In this campaign, I did something a bit different with him. The campaign journal thread is here, if you want to read it:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5432

    Anyway, here's what happened. First, when the party defeated the wizard Falrinth and ransacked his quarters, they found a bunch of stuff. I change magic all the time, and when I do random stuff, I use the tables from the Encycopedia Magic, which are thus VASTLY expanded. Anyway, they found a potion called Wine of Eternity. Reading the description, I realized it fit Thrommel's case perfectly. Even a drop causes the drinker to fall asleep, and this sleep can last, well, an eternity. :) Actually, the save is a yearly save, and if it is failed, the person stays asleep for another year. Only a Wish can change that. Combined with an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, he was quite safely stored away. Oh, and there's then the illusion which protects him. I left that, though I didn't really worry about how that was created.

    Anyway, the party found him and saw through the illusion. They then found Otis, Y'dey, and Jarro, and with their help brought Thrommel back to Furyondy. Of course, he's still asleep, and barring a wish will remain so unless he makes his yearly save. So, while he's been rescued, I still have him basically "out of action." I can bring him back any time now, by either the use of a Wish or by him making a save. That leaves his ultimate fate in my hands now, and gives me more leeway in handling his rescue by the party and the effect it has on the campaign. I guess we'll see how things work out. :)
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.46 Seconds