Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Ancient Suloise and Flan culture (help)
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Ancient Suloise and Flan culture (help)
    Author Message
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:13 pm  
    Ancient Suloise and Flan culture (help)

    Hello Everyone,

    I am planning a side adventure for my beloved party. They may take a trip from the Yeomanry to the Hold of the Sea Princes. Should they cross the mountains, they might run into a crypt made by ancient Suloise refugees or immigrants. Would anyone be able to direct me in the right direction as to where I can find some feel for ancient Suloise culture? I have a pretty good one for the Baklunish (i.e. persian, middle eastern, etc).

    Now if the party takes the scenic route and travels to Keoland instead, they may run into the same crypt but made by ancient Flan. Now I could be wrong, but I get the feeling the Flan were similar to picts or celts. Does anyone, no strike that. Would anyone like to offer their opinion on these two cultures or be able to direct me to a couple of sources that I could use. I'm lazy, that's why I'm asking for your help Wink Thank you for your time!

    I Miss the Wild Coast,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 465
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:56 pm  

    I'm not sure the ancient Suel were ever defined with a particular architectural style. Of the four races, though, they are the most likely to have what we'd consider "standard" settled European influences (IMO).

    The only thing I can recall from an ancient discussion was that aspects of Suel architecture were pretty gothic -- all pointy and sharp. Can't recall where that came from, though.

    Cheers
    Nell.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:56 am  

    Check ot this thread on ENworld:
    http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102756
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:56 am  

    Here goes...

    Greyhawk Racial Characteristics

    Baklunish: Middle-Eastern, Arab/Turk culture inspired.

    Flan: Celtic/North American Natives, with the strongest north american plains native influence within the Rovers of the Barrens.

    Oeridian: Greek/Roman culture, in the east a very Byzantine culture developed over time due to concentrated aerdy settlement.

    Olman: Central/South American Indian city state culture, within the Amedio and Hepmonaland jungles.

    Rhenee: a Romani (gypsy) stereotyped culture.

    Suel: Northen European Aryan inspired -
    - The northern Suel barbarians are like the scandanavian viking stereotypes.
    - The Suel of the Scarlet Brotherhood of the Tilvanot Peninsula retain the complex imperial fascist slave plantation culture salvaged from the former Suel Imperium
    - The southern Suel jungle tribes found within Amedio and Hepmonaland have gradually adopted a simpler tribal culture but still retain the belief in Suel racial superiority.

    Touv: Touv are extremely dark brown or black skinned African culture inspired but they worship gods similiar to the Aztec culture and live in the southern half of the Hepmonaland continent.

    I hate to disagree with you Nell but the Oeridians are you standard medieval architectural style.

    The Suel architectural style according to the Scarlet Brotherhood supplement as circular cities and "rounded towers and buildings" the descriptive phrases such as elegant, ornamental and orderly are also widely used to describe the suel cities in the supplement.

    Hope that helps
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:30 am  
    Module

    In the Downloads section is a 2AD&D module that takes you back to the Suel Imperium. You should download it as it may help. Also, there is an Article on the Forgotten City, which is the last vestige of the Suel Imperium, and has some of the detail you are seeking.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 465
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:47 am  

    Crag wrote:
    Oeridian: Greek/Roman culture, in the east a very Byzantine culture developed over time due to concentrated aerdy settlement.

    I hate to disagree with you Nell but the Oeridians are you standard medieval architectural style.


    Culturally the Oeridians are quite a bit more Germanic than Greco-Roman, I think.

    Any "real-world" analogy has to be taken with a very large grain of salt, of course.

    At the time of the migrations, the Suel were the most likely to have an "advanced" architectural style familiar to current residents of the Flanaess. The Oeridians were migratory/transitory tribes, the settled Flan were largely overcome (though many, if not most, smaller villages and hamlets are probably "Flan" in style), and the Baklunish weren't around. The Suel were the only culture coming from a settled, large-scale civilization.

    That said, the Suel ado have at least two major styles of architecture, one"rounded", with domes and turrets, and the second "gothic" with spires and peaks. Possible division between northern and southern, or eastern and western, Suel, pre-Cataclysms.

    Cheers
    Nell.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
    Posts: 580
    From: British Isles

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:52 am  

    to be honest I haven't seen much in the way of continuity for the cultures of the Flanaess. It seems to vary from artist to artist and write to writer.

    I know I have my own feelings and I would recomend you ignore anyone who claims to know the true answer and just go for what you like the most.

    In my games I see the real world influences as follows:

    Baklunish - persian, middle-eastern 101 Nights kinda feel

    Oeridian - I see the current day Oeridians as quite medieval germanic but the ancient Oeridians as having a Byzantine/Roman feel to them.

    Ancient Suloise - im sure everyone will totally disagree with my view but I see the ancient suel as deriving from a step pyramid culture, a bastard mix of messopotamia and maybe phoenician or something. I feel that they are a ritualistic race with a religious/ceremonial tradition much like the egyptians or babylonians...there sacred places are like those of early messopotamia - ziggurats...but the ancient suloise at the time of the Cataclysms were prolly getting more towards the greeks or romans in dress and culture whilst still maintaining these ancient traditions. I see Wee Jass as having quite an egyptian feel - embalming and mummies.

    Flan - cletic / native american mix

    Rhenee - gypsy folk

    but these are just my opinions so feel free to disgree :o)
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:31 am  
    Suel

    Wolfing, actually, your description of Suel Architecture is exactly how I have envisioned the Suel. I have heard some say that they were Roman/Byzantine, but that their architecture was Byzantine never rang true to me.

    I think that the Suel were envisioned (by EGG and most other author's) specifically, but I doubt that they were inspired by a single historical model.

    So.. Here is my two bits: IMC The Suel look Germanic/Viking in skin color/hair. The Ancient Suel were cosmopolitan like the Byzantine, and had a magic heavy bureaucracy run by mages and other literati. Their dress would also be like that of some of the Bablonian reliefs. However, their war gear would be more advanced (having Iron), and I think woudl be more like the Macedonians or latter Greeks).

    They live in an slightly arid environment like that of SW Asia. Their architecture is twofold (as has been stated by others), with a Ziggurat blockiness to one trend (think the Marduk Ziggurat not the great pyramids), and a domed slightly more ornate style to the other. An online search of Akkadian, Babalonian and Sumerian architecture, particularly buildings at Babylon and Ur will show you what I am envisioning. Khorsabad under Sargon will also google very representative pictures. The Istar Gate in the Berlin Museum will show some of the coloration of the buildings, but they were all rich colors not earth tones. Herodotus described one temple as being painted 7 colors, one per level.

    The Suel Barbarians in the north, I see as much like the Siberians as the Norse. They look Norse/German, but they behave and travel more like the Eaters of the Dead in "The 13th Warrior." I think more of Kamcatchka than Norway.

    Try these links for pictures:

    http://www.belteshazzar.com/imageview.php?id=10

    http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/meso/meso.htm

    and a short movie:
    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/arth/asrnsrpl.html
    CF Admin

    Joined: Oct 14, 2003
    Posts: 586
    From: Rel Astra

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:15 am  

    heh, I've always imagined the Suel as somewhat Byzantine in culture with architectural structures being very Spartan like rather than ornamental.
    _________________
    Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 26, 2001
    Posts: 171
    From: Pittsburgh

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:01 am  

    The Suel have always struck me as very Aryan, including their ancient history. One version of the history of the Aryans is that they were a nomadic people from central Asia that eventually settled in Iran. Darius the Great, King of Persia, in an inscription proclaims: "I am Darius, the Great King, ..., A Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage...".
    The Aryans then migrated north and west into Europe and Scandinavia. Flipping the map of the Flanaess around and the migration path of the Suel is very close to this version of the Aryans.
    If you model the Suel off this version of the Aryans, then the Ancient Suel Empire would be very Persian in feel.
    The nomadic Flan remind me of native North Americans. I model the culture of the settled Flan on the culture of ancient India.
    Scott
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:04 pm  
    Re: Suel

    Anced_Math wrote:
    The Suel look Germanic/Viking in skin color/hair.
    . . .
    The Suel Barbarians in the north, I see as much like the Siberians as the Norse. They look Norse/German, but they behave and travel more like the Eaters of the Dead in "The 13th Warrior." I think more of Kamcatchka than Norway.


    Crag wrote:
    Suel: Northen European Aryan inspired -
    - The northern Suel barbarians are like the scandanavian viking stereotypes.
    - The Suel of the Scarlet Brotherhood of the Tilvanot Peninsula retain the complex imperial fascist slave plantation culture salvaged from the former Suel Imperium
    - The southern Suel jungle tribes found within Amedio and Hepmonaland have gradually adopted a simpler tribal culture but still retain the belief in Suel racial superiority.


    ScottG wrote:
    The Suel have always struck me as very Aryan, including their ancient history.


    I have for some time been somewhat unnerved by the Suel as they are commonly depicted in ways similar to the above quotes.

    They are Greyhawk's Nazis - Aryan, racist, steeped in occult trappings, with the Scarlet Brotherhood as the SS gone rogue. They have a "Nazi cool" that many, many Greyhawkers seem to respond to. Some WWII wargamers jones the same way, except they don't have the cover of calling them "Suel." This apparent fascination with mock-Nazis dressed up as "Suel" is somewhat unnerving to me.

    The idea of "good Suel" is, to me, even more unnerving. If the Suel are a Nazi substitute, then "good Suel" become "good Nazis" by extension. Good Nazis?

    I'm not suggesting that anyone who thinks the Suel are cool are closet Nazis or racists. I think the Suel make great, compelling villains.

    I don't think the Suel can ever be "good," however.

    And it is no help to say that not all Germans were Nazis. Unlike the Germans, the Suel have no identity outside their facist trappings. They were created as fascists. Some are just arbitrarily called "good," leaving their defining facist-like characteristics in place, as a "guilty pleasure." The motivation for the supposed "good Suel" in the face of their history is almost entirely absent. They are good by fiat. Right. Or should that be "Ya voll!"

    Neither is it any help to say that a consistent depiction of the Suel as fascists is "one dimensional" or "cliche." The Nazis were incredibhly complex villians, hardly one dimensional or cliche, given their enduring popularity as villains, but they were villains. So go the Suel.

    Any credence given to "good Suel" strikes me as disingenuous and an excuse to play at fascism without guilt.

    Again, I'm not saying that anyone who likes, really, really likes, the idea of "good Suel" is a closet Nazi or fascist. I just think they like to play at Nazism or fascism, whether they want to acknowledge that or stopped to think about it.

    There is nothing "cool" about fascism. Closet or otherwise.

    GVD

    IMC the "good Suel" of Keoland are closet fascists, and the mask keeps slipping. You can't keep a fascist down on the farm. IMC most other "Suel" are only partly Suel and see them selves as Nyrondese, Urnster or what have you, not as strictly Suel. Only the Keolanders and the SB are "racially pure" Suel, IMC. The northern barbarians have degenerated so far that they have no memory of Suel culture or history; they are thus an essentially new people, Suel in name only, IMC.

    PS - I am not suggesting anything with respect to the posters quoted above. Their posts just got me to thinking about "good Suel." I have no idea how any of them may utilize the Suel. No offense is intended with respect to their postings.
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 719
    From: Bronx, NY

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:35 pm  

    GVD:

    First, I agree with you on the concept of "cool" Nazis. I've seen it many times in wargames myself. Sometimes I think it is aggravated by the fact that SS units are just so danged good. Plus they get the coolest names. (Come on, who wouldn't root for the Viking Division?)

    Second, I agree that the Suel in GH are often left as little more than stereotyped Nazis of the SB, Viking raiders ready to turn into SB tools, and . . . whatever else might fall into the realm of being "good" Nazis. (Just the ones who built the autobahn or something I guess.)

    Third, I was very close to giving a heavy "closet Nazi" theme to the Keoish in LG. I pulled back solely to avoid having someone freak out on me and whine to the RPGA that I tricked them into joining the Soldiers of the Sheldomar with their cool units named things like "Life Guards - Kimbertos Skotti", "The Empire", or "Greater Keoland", or have them meet up with the Olman of Duke Luschan's "Duke's Amedio Korps".
    Of course in some ways that is symptomatic of finding something "cool" about fascism. But then the Evil Overlord List showed just how ubiquitous so many of the cliches associated with the trappings of facism are in our popular fiction, so it is probably to be expected we would default to them so often.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 465
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:32 pm  
    Re: Suel

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Again, I'm not saying that anyone who likes, really, really likes, the idea of "good Suel" is a closet Nazi or fascist. I just think they like to play at Nazism or fascism, whether they want to acknowledge that or stopped to think about it.


    I'm sorry, but that's crap. I don't find Nazism or fascism funny or enjoyable, and I don't like being told that I do. I use the Suel alot, and I've played a "good Suel" character, and it has nothing to do with all my supposed secret facist desires.

    Quote:
    And it is no help to say that not all Germans were Nazis. Unlike the Germans, the Suel have no identity outside their facist trappings.


    The Suel have a racial identity and a cultural identity. You're either confusing the two or claiming one mandates the other, which in our world is called racism.

    The depravity and cruelity Suel culture was once capable of is exactly what makes a "good Suel" character so powerful. It's nothing special to be happy and smiley when everyone around you is happy and smiley. It's another thing altogether when you come from somewhere like the (yes, cliched) Suel Imperium. The deeper the darkness, the brighter the light, so to speak.

    Anyways, if the Suel were totally cruel and evil, where did all the good Suel deities come from?

    Nell.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:13 pm  
    Easy everybody, inhale...exhale

    Howdy Everyone,

    Okay, let's take a minute and relax. Seriously, I'm starting to feel bad about making my post. I didn't want anyone to get bent out of shape. I was hoping that I could garner some insight so that I could better describe the architecture of the crypt. Would the crypt have solid flat ceiling or domed and peaked ceilings? Would there be arches, frescos, bas reliefs, etc? Would there be somber painted paterns or curves, murales and checks? That is what I was going for.

    But since we are on the topic of the Suel, I like to think of them as anyone else. Oh sure there are those really bad guys over there (points across the room), but we have nothing in common with them. Perfect case, my roots come from Germany (super great grandparents moved to those funny English colonies across the Atlantic in 1736), but none of my family had anything to do with Germany or the nazis during WWII (other than fight against German troops while serving in general Patton's 3rd Army). So yes, in the case of the Suel, they had a grand and incredibly brutal empire at one time. Yes, many Suel immigrated across the Flanness, but not all of them are bad. Oh sure, the Scarlet Brotherhood (thrice damned they be) are really aweful people, but Higlac the farmer in Keoland or Wiglaf the cleric of Pelor in Veluna or Shardwis the enchanter in Nyrond may have absolutely *nothing* to do with the ancient Suloise empire other than having ancestors that were subjects. Sorry to cause such a problem.

    My Sincere Apologies,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:19 pm  
    A Game

    GVD & Samwise, I have often been impressed by the things that each of you post here; this is not one of those times.

    However, as to your assertions/assumptions, I was simply trying to respond to a request for thoughts on architecture and a general description of a FANTASY culture. I try and change and mix up any culture that it is not simply recognizable.

    As to the assertions that some try to glorify Nazis, I did not see that in my post or anyone else's. I would suggest that when you "see," this in others, it has more to do with you than anything they are doing.

    While I and my family have an average american story, should you have bothered to ask, you would realize how absurd such an accusation would be.

    As to any one race being "bad,"; show me the group that has not participated in crimes against humanity, and I will show you a group with good editors.

    Finally, it is a game. Nothing more. Lets keep it that way. We play games for fun, at least I do. And Dwarf, you should not be sorry; it was a reasonable question to which a little too much emotion was added.

    Good Night All
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:46 am  

    Anced Math Posted:
    Quote:
    Finally, it is a game. Nothing more. Lets keep it that way. We play games for fun, at least I do. And Dwarf, you should not be sorry; it was a reasonable question to which a little too much emotion was added.


    Indeed, lets step away from the racial overtones in real life and move back towards the relevant fantasy/Greyhawk topic please.
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
    Posts: 580
    From: British Isles

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:03 am  

    I have to say I agree with Anced_math....until now I have always been impressed by GVD's posts but no disrespect that post was totally unreasonable.

    I just deleted most of what I have written because I don't want to get into this argument but I think it's a shame to see such views. I think it's healthy to view roleplaying as a game and a little escapism based on fantasy. Your post sounded like a blurring of game and reality and sounded quite unhealthy.

    So yes, let's please return to enjoying Greyhawk and not have it spoilt by this kind of thing

    but on a happier note - I'm quite interested in ANced_MAth's idea of the Fruztii. I think that it fits in much better with the Suel. I always thought that the Fruztii wer eintended to be like the Vikings and I think culturally I will keep them like that but physically something more Finnish or Slavonic perhaps would be really cool and make much more sense.

    How about the demi-human races. Does anyone have any Earth parallels for the elves, dwarves and gnomes et cetera?

    The elves i see in a very Midsummer Night's Dream kind of way...crossed with old depeictions of the fairy court. I'll find an image to post to give a better idea of what im thinking.

    Gnomes appearance i actually see quite like the Slavonic too. Embroidered waitcoats, women with ribbons and flowers in their hair.

    Dwarves maybe quite celtic for the hill dwarves, tartans and the like? with the mountain dwarves mor elike tolkien's dwarves with their hooded cloaks.

    any opinions?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 16, 2004
    Posts: 6


    Send private message
    Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:14 am  

    Must be one of the most common topics pontificated upon Laughing

    I agree with most as I tried to keep the cultures all within a certain geographical area.

    Baklunish - China under the Hung Dynasty. I see Jade towers and a silk road leading into the east.

    Oerids - I see Celtic migrations due to forced/unforced Baklunish/Suel preditations(is that a word?) Tartans and Bagpipes-after all you can't conquer the known world without bagpipers Shocked

    Suel - I see the Kiev princes/Rus. Good Dragon article on them! Baba yaga's hut and the Onion domes.

    Flan - Persian(ancient)/ Indian/Greek current. They have the major gods and great past culture but rather like city-states couldn't agree/defend their lands forever.

    Olman - Meso-americ cultures

    Touv - Afro-centric (Egyptian)

    Rhenee - Romany

    I am a fanatic for anything Eastern European Embarassed I see Polish lancers with tigerskin capes charging into a mass of spear wielding orcs Laughing
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:01 pm  
    The Suel

    Hello Everyone,

    I appreciate your help on this matter. Because of it and some of the directions you have pointed me, I think I'll go with the whole Russian and Kiev Princes background. I'm really digging the Kiev thing. Hmmmm Russian. Itelligent, enlightened and yet, an unrefined savagry underlying the desperate bid for respect and recognition is how I will portray the Suel of antiquity. I can see the noble houses trying to gain respect from within the culture and trying to prove to the Baklunish they command a great culture and trying new ideas, but yet, trying to limit the influence of outsiders and the new ideas so as to protect the power structure.

    My Gatitude,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 719
    From: Bronx, NY

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:24 pm  

    If people are unnerved at the classification of the typical SB/Suel presentation as a form of "Nazi chic", then why constantly portray them in that matter?
    And note how relatively simple it is to find an alternative to compare them to. If it is so easy, why wasn't it done long before? Why hasn't that alternative been referred to constantly?
    It's all well and good to choose an easily identifiable model for truly despicable villains. But all too often people wind up identifying with those villains. This is particularly true in fantasy gaming, with iconic anti-hero Elric having as many or more "copies" as characters than say Drizzt.

    If you don't use those stereotypes and indulge in playing on the edge, great.
    If you don't use them and indulge in vicarious playing on the edge, even better.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 465
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:37 am  
    Re: The Suel

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Hello Everyone,

    I appreciate your help on this matter. Because of it and some of the directions you have pointed me, I think I'll go with the whole Russian and Kiev Princes background. I'm really digging the Kiev thing. Hmmmm Russian. Itelligent, enlightened and yet, an unrefined savagry underlying the desperate bid for respect and recognition is how I will portray the Suel of antiquity. I can see the noble houses trying to gain respect from within the culture and trying to prove to the Baklunish they command a great culture and trying new ideas, but yet, trying to limit the influence of outsiders and the new ideas so as to protect the power structure.

    My Gatitude,
    Dwarf from Nyrond


    That certainly works for me. I hadn't thought of the Suel in those terms, but it fits very well.

    Cheers
    Nell.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:57 pm  

    Interesting.
    I checked out the links above, with the pictures of the ziggurats at Ur and such.

    Do you guys know the Vecna: Hand of the Revenant graphic novel ?
    It has the architecture of legendary Fleeth during and 1000 years before Vecna`s siege of the city. There are also some interesting details in dress and culture of the inhabitants. They embalm their dead (actually Vecna and his mother do this in the past a slaves. They are flan there) and their dress strikes me as a cross between egyptian and byzantine. (I`m not that knowledgeable in history, so could easily be wrong on this)

    Problem is the story as them worshipping Pholtus who is oeridian IIRC.


    Last edited by Thanael on Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:31 pm  
    Re: Suel

    Nellisir wrote:
    I'm sorry, but that's crap. I don't find Nazism or fascism funny or enjoyable, and I don't like being told that I do. I use the Suel alot, and I've played a "good Suel" character, and it has nothing to do with all my supposed secret facist desires.


    I'm going to quote Nellisir because I think he encapsulates a type of response that I anticipated someone would make.

    I am not describing how you, Nellisir, play or your game. I am not describing any named individual's game or how any named individual plays. I am describing something I have seen and the characteristics of what I have percieved often enough to have it register on me.

    I took pains to say <BEGIN QUOTE>Again, I'm not saying that anyone who likes, really, really likes, the idea of "good Suel" is a closet Nazi or fascist. I just think they like to play at Nazism or fascism, whether they want to acknowledge that or stopped to think about it.<END QUOTE> Please not the wording -" likes, really, really likes . . ." I chose those words with intention.

    Not everyone who utilizes the Suel is a closet Naxi or closet fascist or is playing at such. But if someone more than "likes" the Suel as they are so often depicted as pseudo-Nazis and fascists, then I think there may be something else involved, knowingly or unknowingly. It is that quality of more than liking, of liking the Suel as depicted to an inordinate degree, that is to me often enough a tip off.

    I am somewhat in the position of Mr. Justice Stewart who, attempting to define pornography and obscenity, finally was forced to note, "I know it when I see it." I know "cool Nazi" players, DMs and games when I see them. But I have not "seen" anyone here play.

    If you or anyone else who is "offended" by my observation is trying to say there is nothing of the "cool Nazi" about the Suel, that such does not exist, cannot exist or that none has ever found the Suel "cool" because of their Nazi or fascist trappings, then I think you have not been paying attention.

    Assuming one can see/admit the Nazi and fascist elements of the Suel, the question remains, did I apply that standard to you? I described the salient characteristics as I have observed them - an extreme over-fondness for the Suel and a particular interest in the Nazi or fascist elements of the Suel depiction. And I do not back up for one minute if this describes someone and in saying that someone is at least playing a Nazism or facism.

    So, before anyone gets offended, take the test -
    (1) Do you have an extreme over-fondness for the Suel?
    (2) Do you find that the Nazi or fascist elements of the Suel make them particularly appealng to you?
    (3) If you answered "no" to Q2, why do you have such a Suel fixation and are you comfortable with that articulation?

    If you pass the test, no reason to get offended. If you did not, well . . .

    My post was an ink blot of sorts. I have never gamed with any of you. I have no idea how you play. You look at what I describe and you see what you see. I just held up the mirror.

    So saying, I repeat, not every use of the Suel is playing at Nazism or fascism, but some of it, IMO, most certainly is.

    And if you got offended by my post, that doesn't make you a closet Nazi or facist, just to be clear. But having a chance to think about it, are you still offended by my mere mention of the possibility that some people are, knowingly or unknowingly getting off on the Suel's "Nazi cool?" Wouldn't you agree that is probably not a "good thing?"

    And here is where the "good Suel" come in. They are a useful cover or excuse or "white-wash" of the Nazi and fascist elements of the Suel. The Suel are fictional. To imagine one can be "prejudiced" against a fictional people in any meaningful sense, to me, is nonsense. And it is hardly playing at "prejudice" to be leery of the Suel's Nazi and fascist trappings, particularly when some find this "cool" and see no need to look beyond the "Suel" designation.

    The evil of Nazism and fascism is unique and not at all the same as the evil of standard fantasy "evils." The evil of Nazism, I would argue, is even unique among real world evils, in its toxic combination of hateful elements and sleek packaging. To use this kind of evil in a fantasy is entirely appropriate. To glorify it, in any way or to appear to, is not.

    The Suel are DEFINED by their Nazi and fascist trappings. They have no other identity in the game. Then we arbitrarily declare some of them "good." That's okay, right up to where the "good Suel" are cover for playing at "Nazi cool." And I see this not a little.

    Yes. You can play a "good Suel." It does not even have to be a Drizzt-like "good drow" kind of thing. Individuals are individuals. And it gets complicated. Shindler's List perhaps providing a readily at hand example.

    But by some measure, I believe there a bit of head-in-the-sand going on to not look at the Nazi and fascist elements of the Suel and to (1) own up to them and (2) ask how we are depicting them and (3) ask whether the Suel may be "too cool," good Suel or not, if that "cool" is in fact due to a "Nazi cool" fascism.

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:35 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    But all too often people wind up identifying with those villains. This is particularly true in fantasy gaming, with iconic anti-hero Elric having as many or more "copies" as characters than say Drizzt.


    Samwise said it perfectly here.

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:49 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    I was very close to giving a heavy "closet Nazi" theme to the Keoish in LG. I pulled back solely to avoid having someone freak out on me and whine to the RPGA that I tricked them into joining the Soldiers of the Sheldomar with their cool units named things like "Life Guards - Kimbertos Skotti", "The Empire", or "Greater Keoland", or have them meet up with the Olman of Duke Luschan's "Duke's Amedio Korps".
    Of course in some ways that is symptomatic of finding something "cool" about fascism. But then the Evil Overlord List showed just how ubiquitous so many of the cliches associated with the trappings of facism are in our popular fiction, so it is probably to be expected we would default to them so often.


    I would have loved to see this! I think the Suel make great villains. The inclination to "tone them down" and declare some of them "good" removes much of their power IMO, while letting people feel "safe" with them.

    Keoland need not be a cesspool of pseudo-Nazis but neither should it be "happy land" given the history of its ruling class. Too often I think people want a "happy land" Keoland. Too often with "good Nazis."

    If there was a genuine conflict depicted with "good Suel" dealing with their Nazi and fascist tendencies/history, that would be one thing and I would buy "good Suel" with much more ease. But a blanket "good Suel" designation strikes me as disingenuous and conducive to some people playing at "good" Nazisms and fascism under the guise of "good Suel."

    In saying this, I want to be very clear that I see the Nazis as a unique type of evil, one that is uniquely unsuitable to be "played" with. If people want to play at "fantasy evil," I see that as another matter entirely from playing at "Nazi evil."

    "Nazi evil" is seductive and empowering for some people, with real world consequences, in away no fantasy necromancer etc can or will ever be.

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:10 pm  
    Re: A Game

    Anced_Math wrote:

    As to the assertions that some try to glorify Nazis, I did not see that in my post or anyone else's. I would suggest that when you "see," this in others, it has more to do with you than anything they are doing.

    While I and my family have an average american story, should you have bothered to ask, you would realize how absurd such an accusation would be.

    As to any one race being "bad,"; show me the group that has not participated in crimes against humanity, and I will show you a group with good editors.

    Finally, it is a game. Nothing more. Lets keep it that way. We play games for fun, at least I do. And Dwarf, you should not be sorry; it was a reasonable question to which a little too much emotion was added.

    Good Night All


    Whoa! Slow down. No one is accusing you of anything. No one said you are glorifying anything.

    I was not responding to your post. I was reading the thread and was reminded of the "good Suel" phenomenon which has bothered me.

    If I was aiming for you, I would have been far more pointed. Neither you nor your post are at isue.

    With respect to your latter two points -

    The Suel are uniquely defined by their villainy both before and after the Migrations. This is not a case of everybody having some bad apples. These apples are said to be really, really bad from the get go.

    It is just a game but the Nazis are not just any evil that we can play with. The Nazis are a unique evil, combining facism, racism, genocide and occult trappings with the slickest of sleek and seductive packaging, topped off with a great efficiency and demonstrated intelligence that, had they not been turned to the aforementioned evils, would be laudable. To play at Nazism, even in a game, is tricky. As long as the Nazis or pseudo Nazis are the bad guys, you could not ask for better villains. To paint them gray or worse white, is very problematic when we see how Nazism continues to fester in varient strains 50 years on from the end of the Reich.

    I cannot walk out my door and encounter an evil necromancer, evil dragon or mindflayer. I can't even find a serial killer or just a killer with ease (or I would be a great cop and be on the news). I can find neo-Nazis without much effort unfortunately.

    Taken together, Nazis are a different evil and nothing to play with or at, unless they are the VILLAINS. The "good Suel" can get uncomfortably close to "good Nazis," IMO.

    That's not accusing you of anything, that's me explaining my feelings. You are not on trial.

    GVD
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 719
    From: Bronx, NY

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:13 pm  

    At the risk of agreeing excessively with someone who agrees with me, I think it might come down to a wargaming background. What GVD is talking about shows much more blatantly there, so perhaps that is why I read his post and saw what he expanded upon the second time but others might not. As an anecdote, about 20 years back (Has it been that long?), some people in wargaming posed the semi-rhetorical question, why are all eastern front wargames named in German or with translations of the German names for the various campaigns? If they were the "bad guys", why is everything named their way? Part of the answer addressed the whole "Nazi chic" issue, something most gamers simply took for a given and never even worried about. (Although at this time I always favored eastern front games for the simple reason that it didn't matter which cardboard hoards I sent to a virtual grave. Nazis or Communists, they weren't the upstanding forces of Democracy, so I could sacrifice them with impunity.)

    [/quote]Keoland need not be a cesspool of pseudo-Nazis but neither should it be "happy land" given the history of its ruling class. Too often I think people want a "happy land" Keoland. Too often with "good Nazis." [/unquote]

    Heh. Read the timeline. One of the themes I set for LG Keoland was "dirty little secrets", that every happy story had some nasty truth behind it. A lot of that went into the timeline. Sure the Rhola and Neheli were better than almost all the other Suel. That didn't stop them from agreeing to dominate the Sheldomar, or any of the other less than pleasant things they did along the way. The entires for the House Wars may not use the word, but they were genocide directed at the Firstcomer Suel pure and simple.

    However, I will take this moment to say I don't think the Suel should be portrayed as Nazis. Not as an attempt to rehabilitate the Nazis, but as an attempt to give the Suel more depth overall. While using a blatant parallel may be fine for the SB, a disgusting group if there ever was one, I think the Suel as a whole should be treated as a distinct group that, even while it can contain people that are relatively vile as most of the Suel migrants were, still aren't total psychos like the SB. Even among scum there are total deviants, and that is what the SB is. "Ordinary" Evil Suel are just decadent scum, from a culture that is no more inherently Evil than any other Human sub-race is inherently Good or Neutral.
    This is why I dislike the "Viking" model for the Thillronian barbarians, and why I dislike the basic Baklunish stereotypes as Arabs, and Druidic/Elven uber-environmentalists. Do that, and you don't have to worry about things like this in the first place.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 465
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:49 pm  
    Re: Suel

    GVDammerung wrote:
    But by some measure, I believe there a bit of head-in-the-sand going on to not look at the Nazi and fascist elements of the Suel and to (1) own up to them and (2) ask how we are depicting them and (3) ask whether the Suel may be "too cool," good Suel or not, if that "cool" is in fact due to a "Nazi cool" fascism.


    Regardless of what you mean, what you say sounds like "most people who like Suel are neo-Nazis." Now, I realize that isn't -really- what you mean. I bet you'd even say that you don't think most people who like the Suel are neo-Nazis. But if that's the case, what does it matter and why bring it up in such a strong manner???

    I don't buy that the Suel are just blatant Nazi ripoffs. I think there are (OBVIOUS) similar elements. I think in some cases those elements may be deliberately emphasized, or other elements added, to deliberately produce a "Nazi similarity". But none of those elements were unique to the Nazis, and many of them were commonplace in older cultures.

    The predominant one is racial/cultural superiority. This is not a belief unique to Nazism; indeed, it might be argued that it is more uncommon for a culture of humans (said culture, in a pre-modern world, usually being racially homogenious) to NOT believe in their inherent superiority than to believe in it. This belief, in Greyhawk, is most embodied in the Scarlet Brotherhood, a Suel organization, but one that is clearly not representative of the mainstream Suel culture, either now or in the past.

    If you see the Suel as nothing more than Nazi-ripoffs, as being "DEFINED by their Nazi and fascist trappings. They have no other identity in the game", then I think you might need to check your own viewpoint. We see what we want to see. If you refuse to see the Suel as anything other than Nazi's, or Nazi's in disguise, there's not much I can do about it. Anything I can write that says the Suel aren't evil, you can counter by saying I'm trying to mask their vileness. The Devil can quote Scripture, as they say.

    Anyhow, I can still think of at least 3 or 4 good Suel gods - Lydia, Jascar, Kord, and Phaulkon. You still haven't explained those.

    Nell.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 465
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:54 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    This is why I dislike the "Viking" model for the Thillronian barbarians, and why I dislike the basic Baklunish stereotypes as Arabs, and Druidic/Elven uber-environmentalists. Do that, and you don't have to worry about things like this in the first place.


    I have and will always loathe using this sort of cultural shorthand for fantasy settings. It might work for others, but I won't ever do it myself. The "Baklunish are Arabs" is, to me, the worst kind of lazy design.

    I don't ordinarily deal with Flan because the mountain of Celtic/American Indian=Flan bias that now exists in people's brains is too much to overcome.

    Nell.
    Apparently feeling punchy tonight.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:49 am  
    Suel Nazi's Must Die

    This thread is about Ancient Suel and Flan cultures. Not about Suel/Nazi comparisons. While a good points have been made its time to move on and away from the suel/nazi comparisons.

    This is a relevant and interesting thread and needs to continue in a more postitive manner and not just about the real world comparison of nazism in the suel peoples.
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 26, 2002
    Posts: 538
    From: Canada

    Send private message
    Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:10 pm  

    As I see it, the Suel are more "artistic" and passionate than other peoples of the Flanaess. They're the kind that would have art that would be more abstract and "out there" by real-world standards. Pollock, Picasso, guys like that. They also have the longest traditions in music, dance, and so forth.

    Academic learning is also prized by the Suel over the athletic prowess favored by the Oeridians. The Oeridians might lionize Wayne Gretzky or Bo Jackson, but Albert Einstein or Voltaire would be the types of heroes the Sueloise would hold. Contact sports doesn't hold as much appeal for the Suel in general as it does among the Oeridians.

    Racial cohesion is obviously stronger among the Sueloise than other peoples, and citizens from Urnst might have some sort of cordial relations with citizens from the Sea Barons, if they ever met, even though they have very different world views and alignments. OTOH, racial hatreds between the Suel are even worse among them than among dwarves or Oeridians; the Sea Barons and citizens of the Lordship of the Isles both have Suel racial majorities, but they absolutely hate each other.

    These are cultural traits that I think the Suel could demonstrate throughout history. How exactly they appear depends on the overall culture of the nation and era they live in; perverted and erotic art could be popular in a debauched culture like the old Suel Imperium, but in a benevolent one like that of the County of Urnst, it would take the form of paintings of bucolic country life, wild nature, or the beauty of children and animals.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:20 pm  
    A most astute observation

    CruelSummerLord wrote:


    Academic learning is also prized by the Suel over the athletic prowess favored by the Oeridians. The Oeridians might lionize Wayne Gretzky or Bo Jackson, but Albert Einstein or Voltaire would be the types of heroes the Sueloise would hold. Contact sports doesn't hold as much appeal for the Suel in general as it does among the Oeridians.



    Hello,

    Interesting point of view. With so many monks in their society, it would seem that on the surface you are incorrect, but as we dig deeper, you have made a most astute observation, imho. Their martial traditions aren't born of rough and tumble fighting and clubbing each other over the head, but of a more refined eastern martial arts. I think I will try to cross the Princes of Kiev, Mandarin Chinese and a hint of Michael Moorcock's Melnibone and Vadhagh people's to create the proper mix for the Suel people of the South. The Northern Suel will still hold learning as a matter of pride, but they will have lost their eastern martial arts flavor and have it be substitutd by a Greco-Roman wrestling style. I'll trade their values of written word for a more oral and bardic way of life with very intricate dances. Also, I'll make them more eastern in that the subtle nuances of a ritual are more important (example, giving someone a present in one hand is worth less than someone giving the present with two hands). Anyway, thanks for all the input, I hope this thread last longer b/c I really appreciate all the viewpoints.

    I Miss the Wild Coast,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
    Posts: 580
    From: British Isles

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:10 am  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:


    Academic learning is also prized by the Suel over the athletic prowess favored by the Oeridians. The Oeridians might lionize Wayne Gretzky or Bo Jackson, but Albert Einstein or Voltaire would be the types of heroes the Sueloise would hold. Contact sports doesn't hold as much appeal for the Suel in general as it does among the Oeridians.



    I also see the Suel as an artistic and academic people...but...despite this they still have Kord, the only god in any of the pantheons who is concerned with brawling and athletics. Phaulkon is also a very physical god, Llerg is also a god of physical strength. I think of interest here are a group of Suel deities who are academic and not particularly physical (Lendor, Wee Jass, Syrul, Pyremius etc..) and a group who are quite the opposite (Kord, Llerg, Beltar etc). I think this in itself tells us something of Suel character. I always get the impression that the Suel Imperium was not really how the Suloise always were. The Fruz and Amedio Suel are more like a return to the very original Suel people. Their supposed superiority and ethnocentricity and embracing of more academic gods mybe shows an underlying fear of chaos and a return to something more 'savage'. This is actually quite a Greek and ROman kind of thing. Where education and learning where what distinguished these people from the 'barbarians'.

    I like the idea of the Scarlet Brotherhood and Suel Imperium having a large element of fear of a return to a chaotic society engraine din them. Maybe if the Fruz represetn the common people of the Suel and a more chaotic alignment then its no wonder the smaller decadent Lawful, ruling class of the Suel would be quite paranoid and oppressive.

    Just a thought...
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:27 pm  
    Chinese

    I like the Chinese focus, the blending of the real world cultures to make something new.

    There is a current special on the TimesDiscovery Channel about China, and it's history and method of ruling an enormous population and large land area for many centuries. It is a fascinating documentary, and I recommend it highly.

    In reference to this thread, I would not overlay the Chinese Martial Arts, but their government. This show demonstrates not only the structural differences, but also how they perceive government. I would try to elaborate, but it would be an injustice. I will just say that they have had a centralized power for thousands of years, and they do not distrust it the way we in the West so often do. Their perception is very different.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.42 Seconds