I am going to look at Suel religion and the Suel as a race, more generally. To do so, I am going to make reference to a variety of books. Conclusions drawn from these books are my interpetation. Others can come up with other interpretations from these books or chuck the whole thing and do whatever they want.
Looking first to the Catalog of the Flanaess, we can group the Suel gods as follows:
Good Deities:
Kord (CG)
Fortubo(LG)(n)
Lydia(NG)
Phaulkon (CG)
Phyton (CG)
Deities Neutral w/ respect to Good & Evil:
Lendor (LN)
WeeJas (LN)
Bralm(N)(l)
Llerg(CN)
Norebo(CN)
Xerbo (N)
If the Suel are defined entirely by their gods' alignments, the Suel should have a N(g) society (leaving aside questions of law and chaos). This is not what we find described, however. From the Catalog at p. 8, "Perhaps the biggest asset the Oeridians had, however, was the vileness of the Suloise - the majority lied, stole, slew and enslaved whenever thay had the inclination and the opportunity." The LGG confirms that this was the historic character of the Suel at p. 8, "The ancient Suel Imperium was exceedingly cruel." Note the use of the word "majority" in the present day description. From the foregoing, it seems apparent that the Suel are not defined principly in terms of their gods' alignments. They are not N(g), but (X)(E).
This suspicion, that the Suel are not defined by their gods' alignments, is somewhat confirmed by looking at, first, the original Deities and Demigods at p. 6, "Alignment: This shows the characteristic bent of a monster or hero to law or chaos, good or evil or towards neutral behavior possibly modified by good or evil intent. It is important with regard to the general behavior of the being when encountered. The above is also true as regards the alignment of divine beings, except that deities are not always constrained to follow their alignment to the letter. Their motives and purposes are far above the mortal, and though a deity will generally follow his or her alignment, the being's specific actions may sometimes seem to contradict this." Deities, it seems are not purely paragons of their alignments.
This is so because a pantheon is, in part, a reflection of a society's view of itself, that is the pantheon may not reflect any objective reality as much as it reflects a subjective view of how a society sees itself. Turning to Legends and Lore at p. 5, "The nature of a society's gods is both a reflection and a catalyst of its culture. Its pantheon embodies its world-view, greatly influencing what the characters in that society desire, how they behave, and their motivations for undertaking heroic deeds. In practical terms, then, gods should be used not only to provide flavor to a campaign, but to provide guidance and motivations for player characters." What we have here is the ability of a society to see what it wants to see of itself in its gods, while, at the same time, allowing individuals to pick out those aspects that best fit themselves.
Thus, that the Suel gods are not universally, or even in the majority, evil only underlines the old dictum that, "evil people rarely see themselves, or define themselves, as evil." The actions of the Suel define them as an evil people, their gods notwithstanding, but individual Suel may be good or evil.
But how is it that gods aligned "neutral" or "good" would support evil acts, even if the pantheon is a subjective manefestation of a peoples' self-view to some degree? For that answer, we may turn to the 3rd Edition of Deities & Demigods at p. 13-15 where "benevolent," indifferent" and "hostile" deities are discussed. "Benevolent gods care about their worshipers and act to protect them." Id at p.13. But "benevolent" is not the sole province of "good" deities. "Evil" gods may be benevolent, although, "It may be difficult to justify why evil gods are benevolent. (after which options are discussed)." Id. "Indifferent" gods care little whether they are worshipped or not. Id at p. 14. "Hostile" gods are "actively" "hostile" to mortals. Id. at p. 15. On this scale most Greyhawk gods are "benevolent," even many "evil" ones, in that they look out for those that choose to worship them. If an evil person worships a "good" deity that is also "benevolent," there is no immediate reason to suppose that the "good" god will turn away from the evil worshiper, and may, in fact, choose to aid them.
This last proposition may seem odd (if one likes their good wearing white and their bad wearing black) but if we look to the Scarlet Brotherhood accessory at pp. 10-14 & 75-85, this is exactly what we see, good and neutral Suel gods are worshipped by the evil Suel of the Scarlet Brotherhood and the the worship of evil worshippers is not rejected by the good and neutral Suel gods. The good and neutral Suel gods aid evil worshippers. Greyhawk is not black and white.
So, the Suel were and are "evil" and their pantheon does not save them from this designation.
But can a human race be "evil?" Isn't that "prejudice?" Isn't it true that no group can be fairly characterized as "good" or "evil?" The answers are "yes," "no" and "no."
The Book of Vile Darkness at pp. 12-13 discusses the Vashar, a human race that is "inherently" evil. There is no prejudice because the Vashar earn this designation, as a group. The concept of human races being potentially evil, without any cries of "prejudice" or "group scape-goating," is thus established within the game.
Looking again to the description of the Suel from the Catalog at p. 8, the Suel "lied, stole, slew and enslaved." The Book of Vile Darkness, if it needs defining, defined each of these actions as hallmarks of "evil." Id. at 7-9.
There can be no argument, then, that a legitimate case can be made that the Suel are an evil people, unredeemed by any consideration of their pantheon - "by the book." But, there is a counter argument that can also be "legitimately" made.
After describing the Suel as "vile," the Catalog goes on to note that, "There were exceptions, of course, such as the Houses of Rhola and Neheli - late migrants who settled and held the Sheldomar as already mentioned." The LGG continues and expands, "Fortunately, most Suel have avoided this dark legacy, having inherited the relatively minor flaws of being opinionated, selfish and blunt." LGG at p.8. So, we have moved from "exceptions" to "most Suel" being other than their history, pre and post migration would suggest. And why? That question remains unanswered.
I like the term - "whitewashed." It has a nice Aryan, WASPish sound that fits the Suel, who are described, and readily enough identified by gamers, as blond haired, fair skinned and blue eyed. And the Suel have a legacy of believing in their racial superiority, enslaving "lesser" peoples, conducting "breeding experiments," engaging in "genocide" and with a notable perchant for the occult. Who does that sound like? The Nazis.
That may be upsetting for some Suel fans to hear but it comes right out of canon and official products.
Oh! But suddenly, these "evil Suel" are transformed into "good Suel!" By the wave of Erik Mona's pen in the LGG (or whomever wrote the Suel entry). The "good Suel," who were "exceptions," are now "most Suel."
I find the notion of "good Suel" as exceptions hard to swallow. I find the sudden whitewashing of the Suel in the LGG impossible to accept as anything other than a whitewash.
And then we have the "Nazi cool" syndrome. See Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Essays on Roleplaying p. 58. The Nazis were evil but they were sleekly, even seductively, evil. And they had some traits that would be laudable, except that they were yoked to an evil agenda - efficiency, technological brilliance, etc. Wargamers early experienced the "allure" of the Nazis in a game.
The Suel have more than a few points of similarity with the Nazis but are the Suel Nazis? No. But do they have something of a "Nazi cool?" Yes, by any reasonable measure.
Does that mean that every player who likes the Suel is a closet Nazi? No. Can you play a Suel who is not evil or Nazi like? Yes.
Neither of the above is truly relevant, however, to the depiction and subsequent whitewashing of the Suel.
The Suel are depicted as an evil race, ab initio, with some Nazi like traits. The Suel are then, suddenly, "redeemed" but those Nazi-like traits remain.
I find this troubling. That does not mean I am saying Erik Mona, any designer, or any gamer, who has written of the Suel is a Nazi sympathizer or worse.
IMO, it is that we are allowing the possibility of a "Nazi cool" to exist in Greyhawk. That is what I find troubling. It is more troubling because there is no "canon" way to explain how "good Suel" went from an "exception" to "most Suel," while still keeping their Nazi elements.
I am also troubled when a cry will go up at the mere suggestion of any of this. "OH NO! THE SUEL HAVE _NO_ NAZI-LIKE CHARACTERISTICS!" Or worse. "YOU CALLED ME A NAZI." The latter ignores any discussion in favor of outrage. Again, this does not make those raising a hue and cry Nazis etc. but it is nonetheless troubling to me that we cannot even get to the possibility of a "Nazi cool" in Greyhawk and whether this is something that should be given serious consideration.
If there are going to be "good Suel," IMO, there needs to be some organic explaination for it - new religious/philosophical movement, intermarriage so that the "good Suel" are not "pure Suel," cultural drift of demonstrable significance etc. The gods, see above, will not wholly suffice as is. At the very least, IMO, the "good Suel" should be more readily distinguishable from the Nazi-like "evil Suel" by more than a mere adjective.
The prior thread where this was discussed, in medias re, was advisably steered back to another track. That's fine. I think it a tribute to Canonfire that this type of discussion can be had with minimal upset, no namecalling and no "vanishing" of threads or posts. This is not true of every GH forum, where "moderated" is more than a little ironic when describing the administrators and posters in those forums. If people are tired of this topic, sobeit. I did not, however, want to leave Nellisir's question of the Suel gods hanging.
I would like to think that every Suel fan and Greyhawk fan would want to deal with any "Nazi cool" Suel, or the suggestion of such, in a way that was thoughtful and avoided the syndrome seen in some wargaming circles. Saying, "it just ain't so" or "you are calling me a Nazi," does not do this, IMO.
Geez, that was a mouthful! If I may, I would like to offer how I see the Suel of antiquity vs the Suel of today. The ancient Suel empire was driven. It was ambitious. It was cruel. It was evil. Plain and simple, this empire was not a nice benevolent society trying to encourage other races to rise up and meet their potential as peers.
The Suel of today may be cruel. They may be evil. They may be xenophobic and racists. This is different from ancient Suel in that the barbarians of the north are not the unified and vast empire of what was to the west of the Hellfurnaces. I'm sure there are Flan, Oeridian, Olman, Baklunish and demi-humans that are just the same.
The Scarlet Brotherhood is the worst of the Suloise people. Evil for a greater purpose. Yes, they are ambitious, driven, cruel, racist and even a wee bit xenophobic, but I don't feel that in my campaign, they represent *all* the Suloise people inhabiting the modern World of Greyhawk. If I were going to make (sigh) a nazi type regime in my campaign, I would certainly use the Scarlet Brotherhood.
I can easily see a group of barbarians to the north being bloodthirsty and warlike, but that's because that is what their society values (strength and honor, according to their perspective). I can easily imagine a village of Suloise in say...Veluna who are kind, compassionate and merciful. I like to think that in the world of Greyhawk, not everyone is stereotyped. Making people different, village to village, nation to nation, is what gives Greyhawk it's gritty appeal and makes for a rich setting.
I Miss the Wild Coast,
Dwarf from Nyrond
PS- I apologise for not being as eloquent as some of you, but I went to a southern school
Myself, I can imagine a slave owning, violently expanding empire that was still Chaotic or neutral good, as long as they believed that anyone other than their own race was inferior. Which I believe is the philosophy of the Scarlet Bortherhood of pillow biters.
In dividing the Suel pantheon along alignment groupings, it is important to consider not only the alignments, but the descriptions of the actual gods. Most of the suel gods are far more aligned to their Law/Chaos axis (no pun intended) than they are to the Good/Evil.
Lydia is the one glaring exception. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
As an aside comment, I'd consider the hallmark trait of a "nazi" to be blanket judgement of an entire race based on stereotypes...
Sure, the influential and noteworthy Suel migrants were evil bastards, but that by no means applies to all, or even most suel common folk. Humanity, fantasy or fact, is just not that easy to categorize. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
I don't think it unreasonable that a mojority of the Suel today in Greyhawk are not as 'cruel and vile' as their ancestors. My reasonings is; many of the Suloise immigrants, especially those who settled in the SHeldomar are described as integrating with the other peoples. Therefore it stands to reason that where the Suel inegrated they represent descendents of Suel folk who were maybe slightly different from the ancient stereotype or who were trying to break away from it. Those Suel who were not like that would reside in areas where they are more pure of blood like in the Asperdi-Duxchan chain perhaps? These are the SUel who are still cruel in their ways.
The Scarlet Brotherhood represent a group of racial suprematists who have embraced and nurture their old ways. They are NOT an example of all Suel.
I disgree that ANY race is born inherently evil...the ways of the ancient Suel were a result of culture and religion and not genetics - in my opinion at least. HOwever, this is fantasy and if in your campiagn you wish to have the Sul as inherently evil that is your choice. But if you base your humans on a more historical earth basis then to say the Suloise could not change would be like saying all Germans today would like to oppress you or all Scandinavians will rape your wife and burn your house, the examples are endless.
Maybe, depending on how ancient the gods of the Suel are, they represent how the Suel USED to be like in the very beginning of their society. We all know that it only takes a few corrupt individuals to tarnish something...take the crusades...religious persecution in the name of a good deity effectively, the medieval church was corrupt beyind belief. I won't go on about the current flaws of the Christian Church in case I offend anyone :o)
Perhaps the worship of the good Suel gods diminished in ancient time sin favour of the deities who the SB worship. Or maybe the Suloise deities weren't always so good and neutral? Perhaps since the migration of the SUel and their integration with other peoples some of the Suel gods have become more benign. Maybe Wee Jass was LE (I still like ot think she is at least LN(E)), Perhaps Xerbo was N(E) or Osprem LN(E) or LE, Kord could have been CN and Llerg CE? These are just ideas.
The Fruz and the AMedio Suel from what I can remember represented a lower class of Suel who rebelled from their decadent upper class and went their own way...perhaps why many Fruz hate the Scarlet Brotherhood? Maybe the lower and middle classes of Suel were more NG in alignment and it was the upper classes that were evil? I think this to me is more feasible. It is often the case that lower peasant classes are too busy surviving to be anything other than Neutral and pragmatic...it was always the upper classes that represented an extreme be it towards evil or good.
So in summary - in my view - the Suel of ancient times were divided bewteen an evil corrupt upper class and a more neutral lower class. The SB represents the upper classof the Suel, the Fruz the lower and the other suel a mixture in between...the alignments of whom would be represented by historically how well they integrated with the people in the areas they settled. As for religion...deities like Lydia and Phaulkon were probabaly always good but maybe some of the others were less benign or neutral but over time have shifted towards neutral alternatively they were always good and neutral but at the height of the Suel Empire it was the evil deities who were favoured by the ruling classes.
Right, the Suel pantheon is more divided along the Law/Chaos axis.
Just as the suel people: the northern barbarians are chaotic while the SB is lawful.
For a conclusion on the alignment of the suel people you should also take into account the ranks of the deities.
I usually put them in an alignment grid and weigh them according to rank.
The overall end result should normally be neutral (esp. in the World of Greyhawk.)
In the suel pantheon the three highest ranked gods are Kord CG(n), Lendor LN and Wee Jas LN(E). (Greater or intermediate depending on edition)
Wee Jas (LN(E)) is predominant in the SB, while on the Thrillonian peninsula it is Kord (CG(n)).
This is mirrored in the rest of the pantheon. Phyton, Phaulkon, Llerg, Vatun are more worshipped by the Babarians who tend towards Cahos and less towards good, while the SB tends towards law and evil, with Pyremius, Syrul, Bralm predominant.
Lendor, Cyndor Norebo & Dalt, Xerbo, Osprem are universally worshipped, and almost balance out in the C-N-L axis.
Fortubo is estranged from the Suel, because of the derro, while Jascar is balanced by Beltar. Ranet is almost forgotten. Wastri is only a mad demigod.
Perhaps Joramy should be considered suel, who was she married to again? But then Ranet`s ex-portolio would be duplicated.
Lydia(Music, Knowledge, Daylight) is the sole official NG deity, and is opposed by Syrul(Deceit/Lies) and ...here comes the solution: Tharizdun(Darkness) !!! (Not sure who opposes/balances the music aspect.)
Overall the pantheon does lean toward good slightly, but i think you should include Tharizdun who is rumored to be of suel origin (in the SB) and balances everything out quite nicely.
It would also explain why they were more evil in the past! Tharizdun has been linked to the Suel/Bakluni Wars.(I believe by Maldin`Greyhawk, and in some articles here. There`s a legend on how he corrupted Wee Jas.)
While it is not in Tharizduns portfolio today, from the depiction in the Gord novels, the arrogance and supremacy of the Suel Empire would be a perfect fit for him.
PS: I had the same problem with the Oeridian pantheon who lacked a major evil, but by including Incabulos this was balanced out nicely. (He opposes the oeridian wind and nature gods with his plague famine aspects.)
In dividing the Suel pantheon along alignment groupings, it is important to consider not only the alignments, but the descriptions of the actual gods. Most of the suel gods are far more aligned to their Law/Chaos axis (no pun intended) than they are to the Good/Evil.
This is an excellent point, IMO. I broke them down as I did to hold to Nellisir's initial categorization (in another thread).
It is precisely for the reason you point out that I see the Suel, not as pseudo-Aryans but more like Moorcock's Melniboneans. IMC, the Suel are not entirely "human." They have substantial non-human admixtures in their bloodlines. Suel houses reflect the non-human blood in many cases, although not exclusively.
I find "Nazi cool" Suel cliche as much as I find them uncomfortable as well, but it is hard to get away from the Nazi stuff as EGG put it in there bigger than a woodchuck.
I think the law/chaos distinction is poorly developed in "canon" and offers a viable way around "Nazi cool," except for the Scarlet Brotherhood. But if the Suel are to be "redeemed," something other than the LGG whitewash needs to occur.
I don't think it unreasonable that a mojority of the Suel today in Greyhawk are not as 'cruel and vile' as their ancestors. My reasonings is; many of the Suloise immigrants, especially those who settled in the SHeldomar are described as integrating with the other peoples.
Very good observation. I was hoping no one would mention this because it opens a huge, ugly bag of worms.
You are right. The Suel of the Sheldomar, and elsewhere, supposedly intermarried to the point where they lost their cultural identity as "pure" Suel. There should be no reference to a dominantly "Suel" culture in such case but rather a mixed one. That is not what we see, however.
Tell me about the ruling clique of Keoland and the Duchy of Urnst. There are other examples. Many people cling to the idea of "Suel racial purity" despite canon. They create conflicts with canon and call their creation canon to enshrine a degree of "Suel racial purity" at odds with the original canon. Why do people like "Suel racial purity?"
How about Oeridian racial purity? Flan racial purity? Baklunish racial purity? You see none of these.
It seems part of "Suel cool" is "racial purity" to one degree or another. Another "Nazism" creeps into "Suel cool." "Suel cool" is too much "Nazi cool" in thin disguise. When even canon mongers will ignore canon to create new canon that enshrines the idea of "Suel racial purity," I have no problem raising an eyebrow at it. Combined with other elements of "Nazi cool" in the depiction of the Suel, I see an open and shut case.
I think if the Suel followed your lead things would be much better. Get rid of Suel "racial purity" outside the Scarlet Brotherhood.
Okay I went back to the 83 book and looked into something:
The first letter is predominant racial strain, the others are capitalized or not to show strong-weak admixture.
Keoland SOf
Duchy Urnst Sfo
County Urnst SO
Gran March SOf
Sea Princes SOf
Yeomanry SOf
It goes on to say later that in the central region of the Flanaess from Duchy Urnst to Geoff, there is LITTLE HEED paid to either skin color or racial type, whether human or demi-human. (Celene being the exception)
So the best I can figure outside the SB, why Suel supremacy could fit in canon is that in the US for example there is a racial majority rule, even if the nation is highly integrated with multiple ethnicities. We in USA don't even have a monarchy and nearly every president in our history AFAIK has been a WASP male. We accept it to a degree. I think the same goes for Suel supremacy in the Flanaess in nations they are ethnically or religiously dominant in. Only in the SB is there an evil bent on this racial identity and that is because historically their people were marginalized to the fringe of the land during the migrations.
I agree that the Suel have an element of "Nazi cool" to them, and I think one has to recognize the existence of "Nazi cool", as GVD means it, in the first place. One of the things that made the Nazis such successful villains was their recognition and implementation of the power of imagery and symbol.
With respect to the topic of the thread, the idea of the Suel as cruel and "Nazi-like" might be some kind of manufactured history. I mean, after the Twin Cataclysms, which mirror little in Earth's history, some serious re-defining of cultural identities had to occur. One could look at the Baklunish embrace of Fate, through Istus, I suppose, as a way they dealt with the Invoked Devastation (or the other one), and the Suel (or at least the Brotherhood's) adoption of the identity GVD mentions as the way they dealt with the Rain of Colorless Fire (or the other one).
I guess this as-yet-not-really-thought-out approach would imply that the sources we have (canon, not canon, not getting into it, that's for sure) are historical documents, not 100% faithful representations of the past. I don't know. Just an idea.
To categorize the ancient Suel as mostly evil is easy to do, particularly from the standpoint that the 83' brown book as written by the sage P. Smedger. Are not the Baklunish equally evil? Not much is mentioned about this, but Ket in particular has always had a sinister aspect to it.
Because of the very different manifestations of the Twin Cataclysms, records would have survived from the Suel Imperium (which a sage might study), whereas similar records would not have survived the Invoked Devastation. The Suel probably wrote down more of the information relating to their “evil society” than the Baklunish did anyways.
In the days of the Suel Imperium, slavery was the norm as it probably was and still is in the Baklunish lands, and so it was viewed as a fact of life and not as evil. The lawful good Suel or Bakluni might own slaves as it was acceptable to do so within their respective societies (though they would probably treat them very well compared to non-good slave owners and those who viewed slaves as less than human, which would surely be very rare). The only Suel lands that now practice slavery is the Scarlet Brotherhood, whereas all of the Baklunish lands still practice it to some degree. Only the Suel dominant "enlightened east" denounces the practice.
Is the Scarlet Brotherhood modeled on the Nazi's? This is a rhetorical question to say the least. The association suits them, as it squarely plants a strong real-world association with them in people's minds. They are definitely evil and definitely cut from the same mold as the Nazis. Is the Scarlet Brotherhood cool? That is not the way most people would describe them(maybe its the lack of snazzy uniforms, cool parade ceremonies, intimidating afv's, a charismatic leader whose gesticulation knows no bounds, and other Nazi-cool stuff ). If Korenth Zan had ever been pictured with a narrow mustache it would have been a bit much to say the least.
The ancient Suel are more accurately described as Aryans with an Oriental style to them (mainly based on their clothing styles). The ancient Suel are more similar to the Cathars, having a more northeastern-European feel in real world terms. They are not Visigoths or Vandals, or even Vikings, which would better suit the Schnai and other northeastern Suel tribes. These tribes left behind their old culture to a degree, as did the Suel of Hepmonoland and the Amedio (obviously).
I'd say that many Suel maintain a sense of superiority to some degree, particularly with regards to the Baklunish and to a lesser extent to the Flan.
Looking at the current state of most nations (excluding the Scarlet Brotherhood), the dominance of Suel blood is apparent, and it is also apparent that these nations are not evil by any means. To the contrary, most of the evil nations to date have their origins in non-Suel bloodlines.
"Nazi-cool" is based on imagery; not social politics. It also has something to do with the fact that the Nazis led the way in war technology for the most part (there are a few exceptions). It’s also amazing that such a small country could thumb its nose at the world and accomplish as much as they did, even if they were bound to fail. It’s rather frightening, but still impressive, which lends an air of superiority to most things Nazi despite the negative connotation.
What are the #1 selling models in our hobby shop? You guessed it: WW II German stuff. What do most model companies make first? WW II German stuff, because it sells well. It is dynamic by the specific design of the Nazi architects. Imagery was their most powerful tool. The Nazis created as much of their legacy through appearance as they did through words. Their actions defined it all. . The Scarlet Brotherhood is not very "Nazi-cool". It only shares some of the ideology. The "Nazi-cool" is practically nonexistent, so I see it as a bad analogy. The only Nazi-cool" thing the Scalet Brotherhood has is the "curly star', rather than the hooked cross. I guess that for some that is enough.
With all that being said, what would everyone's opinion be on a lawful good paladin of Lendor or Wee Jas(there is a paladin of Wee Jas in my campaign- he's definitely an odd one; I almost wrote him up for Postfest!) that was basically an ethno centrist in addition to being a devout holy warrior? Based on ancient relations with the Baklunish, this paladin sees it as a sacred duty to rid the world of the Baklunish plague.
I pose this question mainly as a counterpoint to the relations of other faiths, specifically those of Pholtus and St. Cuthbert, and Tritherion as well. All are good faiths, but they actually fight against each other fairly often. It's not necessarily a good thing to attack other good people, regardless of their faiths, but there are probably a lot of things that the members of these faiths do to each other that don't result in all of their paladins and clerics attending atonement ceremonies all that often. Under this argument, I can see a paladin of Wee Jas as an ethno centrist. I don't see this individual as killing Bakluni women and children, or the elderly(which would be cowardly in addition to being evil), but warriors, mages, clerics, and rogues would all be up for grabs, as would any commoner leaders and those who spoke ill of the Suel or their gods.
How about Oeridian racial purity? Flan racial purity? Baklunish racial purity? You see none of these.
GVD
You do see non Suloise racial purity shenanigans in the Flanaess. The first that comes to mind is in the Theocracy of the Pale where in the LGG the indigenous Flan peoples are considered by the ruling Oeridians to be a lower peasant class. You could argue that this is more based on religious superiority but I think it is a combination of the two much as is the case with the Suel.
The Rovers are pure bred Flan and i get the impression they are hostile to the other groups - although this is perhaps more xenophobia than superiority.
Wasn't the Aerdy Empire and example of Oeridian superiority?
In the Lendore Isles you see (Grey) Elven racial superiority to the extent where the humans have been driven from their lands.
But I would agree with GVD that I would rather keep extreme Suloise racial superiority within the Scarlet Brotherhood...at least I think that is what you were suggesting GVD!
But I would agree with GVD that I would rather keep extreme Suloise racial superiority within the Scarlet Brotherhood...at least I think that is what you were suggesting GVD!
Moving on from the basic point that a certain "Nazi cool" pervades too much of the Suel and is disturbing, unless one is somehow unable or unwilling to recognize it, there is the question of what to do.
Wolfling, you are correct that I would see the worst Nazi-like characteristics of the Suel confined to the Scarlet Brotherhood. The Suel generally should not be saints but neither do they need to be "chic fascists" and "Nazi cool."
My problem is with the entirely unmotivated manner in which the Suel have been "redeemed" in the LGG. It is essentially a whitewash. The Suel are obsolved of any general evil, becoming instead "prickly," but we see nothing of how this might have happened organically and yet still see the Suel retaining significant "fascist chic" and "Nazi cool" trappings just beneath the whitewash. This is unacceptable to any but the willfully blind, who wish to see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil - of the Nazi-like Suel - who they declare can be "good" at the same time.
As Mortellan, and others have pointed out, pure Suel should be very, very rare, given the canon that the Suel intermixed with Oeridians/Flan etc. But that canon is routinely ignored in favor of Suel racial purity - in Keoland and in the Duchy of Urnst prominently. One must suppose because some Greyhawkers think racially pure Suel are "cool."
Non-pure Suel need to be acknowledged as canon and the majority and this "pure Suel" schtick needs to be put to bed. This should then be tied into the "redemption" of the Suel that the LGG attempts to a painfully unsuccessful degree. This would leave the Scarlet Brotherhood as Greyhawk's pseudo-Nazis and let the Suel more generally develop as a people with some serious issues but not necessarily being tarred with Nazism and most especially not being called "good" or "not evil" while displaying a "Nazi cool."
You can't be good and "Nazi cool." You can't deny the litany of Nazi-like traits displayed by supposedly "good" Suel, unless you hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil. To these new emperors of a pure Suel Imperium, I would only say - nice set of clothes you have there.
The alternative, of course, is the one Samwise pursues in his Sheldomar timeline to a degree - the Suel of the Sheldomar are not as "good" as they seem. But you have to choose -
(1) "Nazi cool" Suel who are not "good;" or
(2) De-Nazified Suel who can be more generally "good."
You simply cannot have "good Nazi cool Suel." And denying any "Nazi cool" only avoids the issue; it does not make it go away because the trappings of "Nazi cool" are starkly evident if you look just to the traits and ask who they remind you of.
To which point I have no intention of further arguing the existance of "Nazi cool;" if you don't see it, you probably never will.
I'm still going to stay out of this until I have time to formulate a complete reply, but I do want to say - I think you, GVD, are seeing something that most of us don't. I understand what you're saying, but I simply don't see it in the people I normally deal with, either on this board or in real life. It's further confused by the fact that you're making this sound like a serious threat, but absolving anyone that might read or post here of being part of it.
Anyways, if one ignores the physical features, you have a culture that's probably more reminiscent of the worst of WWII-era Japan, convinced of it's cultural superiority and divine mandate, and heedless of human life (particularly if it's not Japanese).
Bad things gaining a cult of popularity happens sometimes. I'm not particularly enthralled by the mystique of samurai, myself.
I don't see the Suel as an inherently evil culture. Haughty? Yes, to a large degree and they do come off as having an air of superiority about them when dealing with others.
The Scarlet Brotherhood on the other hand is very blatantly evil. Now, saying that "Nazis are evil" is synonymous with "Suel are evil" is a big mistake. It would be tantamount to saying "Nazis are evil" is synonymous with "Germans are evil." The Nazi's were a political organization. It would be more accurate to say "The Nazi party is evil, but not all Germans are members of the Nazi party, therefore not all Germans are evil." as compared to "The Scarlet Brotherhood is evil, but not all Suel are members of the Scarlet Brotherhood, therefore not all Suel are evil."
If your point is that the Suel are inherently evil, which places them in a class with the drow(to whom play-time for their children includes bumping off your playmates in clever ways) then that is just one person's interpretation of them. If the Suel maintained their level of evil as a whole since the time of the Suel Imperium, there would have been a lot more wars across the Flanaess than there have been.
The Imperial Suel were very evil. Most of the Suel nobles broke away from those traditions. It might be more accurate to say that their evil was tempered over time due to intermingling with the Oeridians and the Flan. To me, the evil of the Suel is no more important than the evil of the Baklunish, Flan, or Oeridians. All have committed evil on a large scale at some time or another. How a DM chooses to handle such things is up to them. If they want to represent an entire culture as evil, then by all means do so.
As to the LGG white-washing the Suel:
"Wicked and decadent, this empire(Suel) was destroyed during a war with the Baklunish." "Some evil Suel were forced into the extreme corners of he Flanaess by invading Oeridians." "The ancient Suel Imperium was exceedingly cruel. This trait surfaces in the modern day, for more than one Suel organization openly plots against other people of the Flanaess. Fortunately, most Suel have avoided this dark legacy, having inherited the relatively minor flaws of being opinionated, selfish, and blunt. Many also tend to be prideful and unwilling to admit flaws or personal hardships."(LGG p. 8)
Yeah, really white-washed. They sound like jolly people! Loads of fun! As compared to the 83' brown box entry on the Suel, this is very scathing. The 83' version just mentions how they dress and what they look like. The Atlas of the Flanaess (FtA) mentions that the Scarlet Brotherhood are Suel racists, but we already knew that. A point is made that this is not generally the case with regards to those of Suel blood. Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins simply mentions very little in the way of the Suel, saying "They fled their old empire and the vengeful people who hated the "evil ways" of the Suel". That covers all of the basic entries on the Suel.
I'd say that on the contrary, the LGG has done anything but "white-wash" the Suel. History from the Scarlet Brotherhood book is excerpted from the writings of the founder of the Scarlet Brotherhood, so I'd say those entries are a bit skewed to begin with, but they certainly do not describe any negative aspects of the Suel through criticisms- the Suel, to the writer Kevelli Mauk, are perfect of course.
Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
. . . I think you, GVD, are seeing something that most of us don't.
You are correct.
The day is yours (as well as those standing opposed to the proposition). I withdraw from the field beaten, but unbowed.
As a friend of mine is want to say, "Sometimes, you get the bear. Sometimes, the bear gets you." Such are the vagaries. I take solice that we kept it civil, despite disagreeing.
I think Cebrion just summed up most of my thoughts on the Suel.
As far as the Nazis...I don't consider them much. When I do, "goose-stepping" is probably the most accurate way to describe the mental "image" I get. I see the WW2 era German society as being extremely rigid and lawful -- the epitome of LE, if you will. Ancient Suel culture, on the other hand, I envision as much more divided and chaotic. As has been pointed out, the Law -Chaos division in the pantheon is much stronger than the Good - Evil division. The automatic comparison between the Suel and the Nazi's just doesn't happen for me (I can see it after thinking about it, but it's not automatic).
Most Suel were too uneducated, and those that were educated were too self-centered and self-absorbed.
The Great Kingdom is the closest comparison I can come to how the Suel Imperium might have functioned, with a titular "high ruler" and a number of lesser rulers, equal among themselves, below him. The infighting, disputes, and rivalries would've been tremendous, centralized control (particularly given the size of the region) almost impossible, and only a massive outside threat could have brought them together for even a little while.
It's amazing how stressful these discussions can become. There's really nothing at stake, but I keep putting off reading the thread nonetheless.
I promise, I don't want to flog a dead horse, so I'll try to keep this brief. :-)
I don't understand where you're getting the whitewashing. As Mortellan pointed out:
Quote:
The first letter is predominant racial strain, the others are capitalized or not to show strong-weak admixture.
Keoland SOf
Duchy Urnst Sfo
County Urnst SO
Gran March SOf
Sea Princes SOf
Yeomanry SOf
Now let's look at the primary alignments of those nations, from the '83 boxed set:
Keoland LG/NG/LN
Duchy of Urnst LG/NG
County of Urnst LG/NG
Gran March N/LN
Sea Princes N/CN
Yeomanry LG/LN
I understand what you're saying regarding mixed races, but this is as close as we're gonna come for a canon source of what was originally intended for the Suel people of the Flanaess and what their alignments were meant to be.
But now let's take this in a weird direction. The same source lists the Scarlet Brotherhood as LN. So it would appear that both a whitewashing as well as a smeer campaign have occured. ;-)
Just food for thought. _________________ ~basiliv
I didn't design the world,
I merely facilitated its creation
I promise, I don't want to flog a dead horse, so I'll try to keep this brief.
I still think parts of this discussion are interesting; I just haven't had time to engage. Look for another Suel thread this weekend... ;-)
Quote:
But now let's take this in a weird direction. The same source lists the Scarlet Brotherhood as LN. So it would appear that both a whitewashing as well as a smear campaign have occured. ;-)
Not a bad thread in all. It made me look into a topic that I had not considered much before, so it was a good exercise in the end. Reading up on some of the foibles that have carried over into the modern day Suel, their "dark legacy" of minor personality flaws listed in LGG will probably begin to creep into how my Suel npc's will be reacting to non-Suel and other Suel as well. The Scarlet Botherhood features as a major group of contention in my campaign currently, though this will change soon, but there are other Suel present that have no affiliation with the SB as well. Should make for some interesting encounters in the near future(this sunday actually is D&D day, woo hoo!).
I agree, Nell, parts of this thread are very interesting. For example:
Quote:
If an evil person worships a "good" deity that is also "benevolent," there is no immediate reason to suppose that the "good" god will turn away from the evil worshiper, and may, in fact, choose to aid them.
Excellent point, especially regarding the Suel. No other pre-Migration race that we know of was fragmented and decimated to the degree of the Suel. While the Baklunish suffered a very similar fate from the Twin Cataclysms (TC), they remained at least relatively close to their homelands, while the Suloise peoples were then largely destroyed by other migrants or inhabitants, or scattered to the north, south, and east.
Now, regardless of your views on where a god gets her/his power, a sudden decimation of your "chosen" people might endear those remnants to a god.
Here's another thought. Given the evil nature referenced for the Imperium, evil gods might have been abandoned for more benign deities. It's likely that fleeing Suel might have felt that their gods had failed them. We may even be dealing with Lost Gods, forgotten after the TC.
Oh, and I've always thought of Tharizdun as a god the Suel stumbled onto, not really a part of their pantheon. I picture abandoned temples, ancient even prior to the TC, discovered by exploring Suloise wizards who sought to expand the borders of their empire. I've imagined ancient Flan workshipping him as well, but in both cases fringe elements rather than the norm of society. _________________ ~basiliv
I didn't design the world,
I merely facilitated its creation
I'm on day six of my Thanksgiving vacation, with nary an '83 boxed set in sight. I'm starting to go through the DTs.
In any event, I think there is something of a misreading going into GVD's original post. I should say that I do enjoy my cameos in his lengthy, thoughtful posts, even when the subtext is that I am a hack writer (almost all posts) and a racist Nazi fetishist to boot (this thread exclusively, so far as I know). You're a fun guy, GVD!
In any event, unless my memory fails me (and it might--remember the DTs), the "modern" description you quote is in fact a reference to the Migrations-era Suel, explaining why the Oeridians were able to essentially "win out" in the years (decades, centuries) immediately following the Great Migrations.
The intention of the race section in the LGG was to suggest that the "modern" Suel (who, for the most part, would be racially intermixed, anyhow) were significantly more mellow than their ancient counterparts, hence the bit about their nasty traits settling into rudeness, etc.
I'm also curious if you've read the fairly extensive Suel section in the Player's Guide to Greyhawk (yet another of Greyhawk's notorious mixed bags, in my opinion). I haven't read it for a while, but it might offer interesting perspective.
I personally prefer to view "pure" Suel as calculating, Melnibonean albino types rather than the "Gunther" way they've been protrayed in core D&D, especially by the Scarlet Brotherhood monk figure in the D&D Miniatures game. They remain soaked in the hubris of the ages, but very few of them are actually interested in breeding programs and the like. I just don't find that credible after several hundred years of miscegination, to use an intentionally loaded word.
It's also worth noting that there aren't a lot of "pure Suel" enclaves anywhere but in the Thillonrian, the lands of the Brotherhood, and the Duchy of Urnst (most likely due to authors chosing the text over the table in the 83 boxed set and running with it--at least it gives D. Urnst a character it otherwise lacks). Certainly some noble houses in the Sheldomar would remain predominantly Suel out of tradition and pride, but as most of them were based upon the Houses Rhola and Neheli, we're not really talking about the real scumbags, anyway.
I skimmed most of this thread (it's getting quite late here on the Minnesota prairie), but I didn't see a mention of the most obvious Nazi analogue--the symbol of the Scarlet Brotherhood, which looks like a starfish imitating a swastika. How's that for a woodchuck?
But now let's take this in a weird direction. The same source lists the Scarlet Brotherhood as LN. So it would appear that both a whitewashing as well as a smeer campaign have occured. ;-)
The alignment map(aGthWoGFS p. 44) lists the SB as lawful neutral, but their entry in the same booklet(p. 33) lists them as "...embracing evil as the only hope of achieving its ends..."
Another main point about the map(p. 44) is that the SB is "tinged gray".
At the beginning of the page is the explanation of the different highlighting:
"Those(areas) tinged with gray are devoted to evil, or tend toward it."
So the SB is accurately represented, and do not need a new PR person. The SB is tinged a medium gray, which means that these "areas should be entered with some caution, but are safer and more tolerant than dark areas.", dark areas like Iuz, the Horned Society, the Great Kingdom, Ull, the Tiger nomads, Blackmoor, the Bandit Kingdoms, Stonehold, the Sea Barons, and The Pomarj. The SB is still a rough place, but you probably won't be robbed by bandits and tortured to death or sacrificed on the altar of some dark god. Probably.
It is of note than all but one of the Baklunish states is tinged medium or dark gray. Ekbir is the only light in the darkness. It is also of note that there are more Suel-influenced territories that are white("closely allied with Good") than there are Suel-influenced territories that are medium or dark gray tinged areas(tending toward evil, or devoted to evil).
***That map is another little tool that I haven't looked at in quite some time. I haven't looked at the Regional Products map in a while either. It will be useful for telling pc's what all those trade caravans they pass in their travels are carrying(yes, my players sometimes surprise me by asking about these kinds of things).
I skimmed most of this thread (it's getting quite late here on the Minnesota prairie), but I didn't see a mention of the most obvious Nazi analogue--the symbol of the Scarlet Brotherhood, which looks like a starfish imitating a swastika. How's that for a woodchuck?
--Erik Mona
Well, I mentioned it as the "curly star". More aptly it would be the "curly cross". Its not a swastika, its a curly cross! Its friendlier! People like curly fries, so people will like curly crosses! Its all in the spin, baby!
Oddly enough, if you mirror the swastike you get a Japanese religious symbol of purity. It is often seen printed on incense sticks in temples(Shinto, I think but my memory is not too good on this), but it also shows up in hereladry during the ffeudal aera of Japan. For the Nazis, it was a symbol of military might. The swastike and the "SS" lightning motif are both symbols of Thor, and are often seen on grave markers and other stone an metal objects of cultures where worship of Thor was commonplace.
And damn! I forgot about The Players Guide to Greyhawk(and no, it is not a card club pamphlet pimped by Telly Savales, or any other pimp). Here is the scathing info on the Suel from this book, just for completeness:
"The Suel have a strong sense of the importance of ancestral and family ties. They fight more among themselves than other human groups because of these ancient allegiences. The Suloise are not known for their patience and have a short way with disagreements, since they tend to be opinionated and convinced that their notions are the best. A popular saying is , "when all the Suloise have left the table," meaning that nothing constructive will take place in a discussion until anyone unwilling to be open-minded is removed."
All other parts of the entry are just physical descriptions, clothing preferences, and general intersts of the Suloise.
After describing the Suel as "vile," the Catalog goes on to note that, "There were exceptions, of course, such as the Houses of Rhola and Neheli - late migrants who settled and held the Sheldomar as already mentioned." The LGG continues and expands, "Fortunately, most Suel have avoided this dark legacy, having inherited the relatively minor flaws of being opinionated, selfish and blunt." LGG at p.8. So, we have moved from "exceptions" to "most Suel" being other than their history, pre and post migration would suggest. And why? That question remains unanswered...
Oh! But suddenly, these "evil Suel" are transformed into "good Suel!" By the wave of Erik Mona's pen in the LGG (or whomever wrote the Suel entry). The "good Suel," who were "exceptions," are now "most Suel."...
I find the notion of "good Suel" as exceptions hard to swallow. I find the sudden whitewashing of the Suel in the LGG impossible to accept as anything other than a whitewash...
The Suel are depicted as an evil race, ab initio, with some Nazi like traits. The Suel are then, suddenly, "redeemed" but those Nazi-like traits remain...
IMO, it is that we are allowing the possibility of a "Nazi cool" to exist in Greyhawk. That is what I find troubling. It is more troubling because there is no "canon" way to explain how "good Suel" went from an "exception" to "most Suel," while still keeping their Nazi elements.
If there are going to be "good Suel," IMO, there needs to be some organic explaination for it - new religious/philosophical movement, intermarriage so that the "good Suel" are not "pure Suel," cultural drift of demonstrable significance etc. The gods, see above, will not wholly suffice as is. At the very least, IMO, the "good Suel" should be more readily distinguishable from the Nazi-like "evil Suel" by more than a mere adjective.
GVD
How did we go from most Suel being evil to most Suel being good?
GVD sees this as an insurmountable problem. He does suggest an explanation for it: racial mixing, but seems to deny this as an adequate answer since even mixed Suel, to him still have the traits of evil Suel.
Another poster suggested that there were class differences in alignment, and that the ruling class of the Suel were far more tied to evil than the commoners. I find that reasonable.
But the most reasonable explanation for me is the one just posted by Eric Mona. I find it most reasonable, probably, because it basicly describes an evolutionary process (natural selection) and I am an evolutionary biologist.
That the Suel Imperium was dominantly evil is undisputed. That not ALL Suel were evil is generally granted. Many people take at face value the statements that the houses of Neheli and Rhola were exceptions to the Suel evil (even if Samwise and Gary Holian don't).
So, what happened after the destruction of the Suel Empire? Little groups of Suel were scattered throughout the Flaneass. Some were good, some were neutral, some were evil. The majority were evil, since the majority of the Suel were evil. However, they found themselves in a new environment, different from the Suel Imperium, where their evil was their strength. Out in the wilds of the Flaneass, they had to compete with Flan, Oerid, and demi-humans. Evil Suel were rapidly eliminated, finished off by alliences of the other parties. Nuetral Suel were tolerated and mostly interbred. Good Suel parleyed their alliences with demi-humans, Oerid, and Flan into the founding of the Kingdom of Keoland.
Thus, while they majority of the Suel migrants were evil, the majority of the MODERN descendants of the migrants are good, because the evil Suel didn't survive as well. Classic natural selection.
GVDammerung wrote:
The Suel have more than a few points of similarity with the Nazis but are the Suel Nazis? No. But do they have something of a "Nazi cool?" Yes, by any reasonable measure...
You can't be good and "Nazi cool." You can't deny the litany of Nazi-like traits displayed by supposedly "good" Suel, unless you hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil. To these new emperors of a pure Suel Imperium, I would only say - nice set of clothes you have there...
I like the term - "whitewashed." It has a nice Aryan, WASPish sound that fits the Suel, who are described, and readily enough identified by gamers, as blond haired, fair skinned and blue eyed. And the Suel have a legacy of believing in their racial superiority, enslaving "lesser" peoples, conducting "breeding experiments," engaging in "genocide" and with a notable perchant for the occult. Who does that sound like? The Nazis.
GVD
GVD, I take the list above to be the "litany of Nazi-like traits" you mention. (Although I must confess I am ignorant of Nazi "breeding experiments"). You claim that these are still practiced by good Suel, and that these Suel are thus still Nazi-like. And that seems to be the main source of your indignation - that some might choose to portray modern Suel as good while attributing to them these Nazi-like traits.
Let's take them one at a time. Fair skin and blue eyes. OK, I imagine many people see the Suel in the Flaneass as still having these.
Believing in racial superiority. OK.
Enslaving lesser peoples. No. I don't know of any canon or fanon reference to modern good Suel supporting slavery, and I know a few canon references to the contrary, stating directly that good Suel are against slavery.
Breeding experiments. Again, I don't know of any canon reference that says that good Suel do that. The SB, yes. But not in Keoland.
Genocide. Again, no. There is a hint that the Neheli and Rhola may have slaughtered Flan when they first arrived in the Sheldomar, but that comes from Holian and Samwise, who don't believe that these houses were good to begin with. No canon reference to good Suel practicing genocide.
A penchant for the occult. AFAIK, not much there either, besides the Silent Ones and the Dark Knights (Malagari?). In general, Keoish society is portreyed as being less religious and less magic oriented than the typical nation of the Flaneass.
So, what are we left with: racial superiority, blond hair, blue eyes, fair skin. Sure, that describes the Nazi ideal, but it also describes the British ideal in their Empire. So, unless you have some more traits to give us, I don't really see how the Suel, especially the good Suel, are so connected with Nazis. Granted, I don't know how most people actually play. If you have seen Nazi chic at the Greyhawk gaming table, I will take your word for it. I haven't.
To me, the Suel are generic racial supremicists. Politics of racial supremacy have existed in most human cultures, and the Nazis have no copyright on it. As a previous poster pointed out, the Suel seem more closely attuned to fuedal japanese samurai culture than they do 20th century fascist culture.
Let me close with a quote from my history of the sheldomar (currently undergoing revision).
"To answer these questions, one must fully understand and appreciate the Suel identity. The Suel had a strong and unyielding belief in the superiority of their culture over that of all other humans. In art, technology, magic, dress, manners, government, and a thousand other things they considered the Oerid, Baklunish, and Flan to be inferior to the glory that was the Suel, the most civilised, most advanced race of men. This belief was universal, held by all Suel, but the results of it have shaped the behaviour and fates of different Suel in different ways.
The majority of the Suel migrants, both before and after the Rain of Colourless Fire, were neutral wanderers, opportunistic nomads. Their superiority, they believed, gave them moral license to treat non-Suel in any manner they wished. These Suel lied, cheated, stole, and enslaved others for the simple reason that non-Suel, as inferior beings, deserved no better treatment.
Evil Suel, exemplified by the group which calls itself the Scarlet Brotherhood, take this notion even further. As a superior race, they believe that they are destined to be the masters of the world. All inferior races owe them obedience, and they work ceaselessly for the global domination that is their due. To this end, any and all means are acceptable - and are used - even against Suel who oppose them.
Good Suel, such as the houses of Rhola and Neheli, did believe in the absolute superiority of the Suel culture. But for them, this superiority came with responsibility. As a superior race, they held themselves to a higher moral standard than they used for others. Thus they were always fair and honest in their dealings, often even self-sacrificing, if condescending. How could they display their superiority, if not through their unimpeachable honour? They considered it their duty to help the other races of humanity live in a civilised manner, through giving them the fruits of the Suel Culture. Active conquest was not deemed necessary to spread enlightenment to the barbaric east - the Suel need only defend themselves and the other races would eventually recognise their superiority. Doing so, they would of course pledge loyalty and ask for assistance, at which point the Suel were obligated to instruct, protect, and defend them, all for the glory of the Suel culture.
Of course, no group of people is entirely of one alignment, including no group of Suel (with the possible exception of the fanatical Scarlet Brotherhood). While the houses of Neheli and Rhola, and the later monarchs and nobles of Keoland, were by and large good, many of them were more neutral or even evil. Evil lies within the potential of all men, waiting for the right conditions to express itself. Many individuals with power during Keoland's Imperialist times embraced evil. But the evil goals they strove for, conquest and domination, and the reasons they gave to justify their actions, national and cultural superiority, did not arise from nowhere. They were simply the dark side of values typically Suel that had ennobled many others of their brethren. This is why it is essential to understand the Suel viewpoint, for it has informed all their descendants, whether good, neutral, or evil."
So, while I do agree that all Suel were racial supremicists, I find Nazis as a model for evil Suel to be adequate at best. A more appropriate model for good Suel would be the British Empire - I model my good Suel after Rudyard Kipling and the "White Man's Burdan". _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I have weighed in a couple of times in various posts on this subject, and I think it quite interesting withing certain constraints.
I wish to pose a few questions:
1) When a culture goes to the extremes that the Ancient Suel (Nazis) went to, very little is remember other than the evil doers. I think that other peoples, wars and conflicts have their Schindlers, but time forgets them. Is this the the imperfect mirror in which the Suel are seen, 2000 years after the Cataclysm. After all, the accounts of the events are almost exclusively Baklunish, are they not?
2) In discussions of Law vs. Good, I have wondered, is any extremely lawful society necessarily going to show similarities to Nazi Germany? I think it could be argued that the Nazis were among the most lawful societies Earth has ever produced.
I am hardly a scholar of this era, but it seems that the Germans were more lawful than evil, but they took lawfulness to the point of evil. Evil executed with absolute efficiency. So, does any strongly Lawful society resemble Nazi Germany? The Pale?
I've followed this discussion for a while now with great interest, but however found little time to comment. I've found some time now.
As for the original question of good gods and the Suel; the origin of the gods and why they were originally only revered by one race and not another and whether that particular deity really concerned about the race of it's congregation is a question that has not been answered (and will be hard to answer because the "present", or resent history, of Greyhawk (or Oerth) was greated first and the history second).
I can vision Kord, for example, as a god that happened to be reveired by the Suel first more out of opportunity (for Kord) than for the particular "nazi/racist" disposition of Kord himself.
Second is the problem of alignment. The Good alignment of the D&d rules is generally regarded as a more akin to the John Rawls "veil of ignorance" moral of treating each other fairly regardless of class and race. Looking at the map of the former Suel empire and you can see that it is fairly isolated from other regions. Most of the pre-catalysm Suel people would probably have never seen a non Suel in their life. Even taking the hedonistic, demon-summoning aristocracy of the Suel it is not unlikely that there have been quite some Suel people that could be considered good or even saintly towards the people in their enviroment (which explaines the existance of good gods in the Suel pantheon). These people might transform in racist/nazi evil bastards when confronted with other races. The best illustration here will be the Krikkit peole from the hitchhickers guide to the galaxy by Douglas Adams (which will be known by most of you).
For the Suel people the great test of (the more multiracial uniform) good or evil came after the distruction of the great Suel empire and the migration. Many Suel, whom had never before dealt with other races (human or demi-humans), had to deal with the "other people". The reason Kirt gave of why the more neutral and (universially0 good Suel survived better sound to be a good one (i.m a biologist too, soo I might be biased).
As for the lawfullness of the nazi's (concernining Anced _math), from what I know of the german Nazi period is that the metaphysical utopia "Greater Arian Germany" ideal caused more opportunistic, exclusive and paranoid chaos in the upper regions than you know. Lawfullness was greatly dependant on the "common enemy", beyond that there was great unsertant. The whole system required an enemy, the "solution " of one problem automaticly let to the question "who will be next"'.
Good point about the complicated nature of Nazi Germany's philosophical foundation. While one can point to examples of extreme efficiency in fascist nations (the grisly mechanism of the "Final Solution", Il Duce's trains running on time), at its core, fascism really celebrates action over contemplation, irrationality over reason. There's the outward totalitarian order, but behind it there's a seething chaos of a population overcome with emotion. Even in the leadership, as alissenberg pointed out, there's quite a bit of disorder between different individuals or factions. It's like: the leadership requires chaos and emotion in their rule, and those people who are likely to assume that leadership are outwardly irrational, but then there's this totalitarian order placed over the whole thing. It brings up interesting questions about the first element of D&D alignment and its application to historical situations and modern nation states.
Kirt,
I love your point about Rudyard Kipling. I hadn't thought about that, but I generally think the British Empire is "underrated" as an historical entity.
Thanks, this is a very good post. The insight on the Suel and understanding them in relation to Nazis has been extremely interesting. I know little about the society they created. Like many, I know much more about the war, and oddly when I think about it, the external precursors evovlving from the 19th century and the first world war.
As a side note, something i have noticed in this thread, and many others is that we as a group, broadly defined, are among the wurst spelelrs on the planit.
Back to the Suel. I think the jist of this, and a couple of other threads, has been that the Suel, even as a fictional society, are much more complicated than we readily admit. Simple explinations cannot explain even the published works, much less the complexities created by each and evey contribution to this and other threads.
How much more so for real societies created by the daily efforts of millions of citizens? Interesting.
Some of us may be bad spellers (not me personally- my new keyboard is much different than my old one and it messes me up very much), but some of us type too fast for our own good and don't go back to fix mistakes. We are not writing here for finished publication. That being said, I am now writing in WORD, spellchecking it just to catch all those mis-typed letters, and then pasting it here in the post box. It works pretty well and cleans up my more excitable posts quite nicely. Give it a try!
But back to the topic.
Much has been made of the evil of the Suel, particularly the Suel Imperium. The Suel Imperium was undoubtedly evil. I make a strong distinction between the Suel of the Suel Imperium and the Suel of the Scarlet Brotherhood however, and the other Suel of the Flanaess as well.
The Scarlet Brotherhood are the Nazi Suel, and are a product of a manufactured culture very similar to the Nazis. The Suel of the Suel Imperium are not. The Suel Imperium had no breeding programs or organization that bred monsters (at least not that I've been able to find- these are facets of the Scarlet Brotherhood solely). The Suel Imperium was not structured anything like what the Scarlet Brotherhood is. The Scarlet Brotherhood is ruled by Monks, thieves, and assassins for the most part; the Suel Imperium was ruled by the noble houses, which were usually headed by mages and sometimes by warrior types. About the only things that the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Suel Imperium share in common are a deep seated sense of racial superiority and the practice of slavery.
The Scarlet Brotherhood uses "subversion from within" to achieve its ultimate goal of world domination. World domination never seemed to be the ultimate goal of the Suel Imperium, though they of course viewed themselves as the dominant race. These two groups in comparison are extremely different. The Scarlet Brotherhood's manufactured culture is nothing like that of what it sprang from, just as Hitler's Nazi Germany was nothing like the Kaiser's Germany. There is a huge difference between the fanatical belief that your people are destined to rule the rest of the lesser races of the world and a strong sense of national identity.
We see that the vast majority of Suel did intermix with Oeridian and some Flan peoples, so despite the accepted viewpoint of Suel racial superiority most Suel are not quite as ethno centric as they are portrayed, and certainly not to the level that those of the Scarlet Brotherhood are. The Suel noble families that intermixed with other races are more tolerant of other cultures, though there certainly is an underlying adherence to the view that Suel culture and traditions are superior, and that having more Suel blood in one's family gives that family a higher status within such inter-mixed societies. That doesn't make these mixed Suel evil though. They just tend to favor their own, which is normal by most accounts.
I should say that I do enjoy my cameos in his lengthy, thoughtful posts, even when the subtext is that I am a hack writer (almost all posts) and a racist Nazi fetishist to boot (this thread exclusively, so far as I know). You're a fun guy, GVD!
--Erik Mona
When I surrender, I like to think I stay surrendered, although I did not offer my sword. I have not kept up with this thread since conceeding that I am in the minority and I guess I should have maintained that practice. But alas, my curiousity got the better of me as to what was keeping the thread moving. Discovering the above quote, I am pained but feel compelled to say something.
To belabor the obvious, you wrote what you wrote and you get to have others look at those writings with a critical eye which may result in praise or criticism. Contrary to what may be a fashionable opinion in some quarters, once an author completes their work which is then published, they are done with it. It stands on its own terms and may not be casually or situationally reinterpreted by the author, although the author may certainly revisit a topic in future published works. The author's written or oral commentary that remains unpublished is, at best, a gloss. The author's opinion of their own work and its meaning, beyond the simple text, is their natural entitlement as everyone may have an opinion, but it carries no greater weight in a dispassionate appraisal of the work. An author may not be heard to say, "But what I really meant to say was . . ." The thing is said or unsaid as readers will read it. It is here that I again acknowledge that I am in a minority of opinion.
The above to one side, I would like to take the two pithy, quoted comments in reverse order.
You see a subtext that makes you out to be "a racist Nazi fetishist." I will offer that if I believed you to be such, there would be no need for a subtext. I would simply identify you as such. I have not done so.
You are overpersonalizing a critique of something which you have written. What you confuse is a specifically contextual reading of the material with an intention to ascribe a specific intent or motivation to the author. That what was written may be seen in a particular light when reference is made to the body of Greyhawk material does not necessarily mean that this was the author's specific intent. Greyhawk canon is replete with author's writing with more or less regard for what other's have written. While you may have more regard, you are possessed of your own opinions and preferences that will shade what you write. You are not an absolute or even neutral authority on Greyhawk, no author is. Evaluating Greyhawk is the exclusive preserve of its participants, it fans. They and they alone pass on what Greyhawk means from the text of what author's have written. It is thus that a critique of some aspect of the Greyhawk setting is divorced from the person of any individual author. Greyhawk is greater than the sum or any one of its authors and their writings. My opinion that makes reference to what you wrote does so in the context of Greyhawk material and is not innately personal, except that you were the author of the material that caught my eye.
If this distinction escapes you, I can do little but return to my initial comment. If I thought you were a "a racist Nazi fetishist," I'd have come out and directly said so.
What you did, I believe, is follow an obviously common perception of "good Suel" at odds with my own view and, I believe, at odds with a demonstrable line of Greyhawk interpretation of the Suel that would see them with trappings of "Nazi cool." That is a far cry from calling you a Nazi. The Nazi aspects of the Suel are accumulated over 20 years and may, obviously, be otherwise interpreted. Your mileage may vary. But that doesn't mean I ran over your foot unless you are looking to have it run over. One may disagree over interpretations of Greyhawk "facts, " even pointedly and on strong terms, without ascribing ulterior motives to the participants in the discussion or the authors of the snipets added together to support a particular view.
Turning to your first point that I have you, again by subtext, "a hack writer (almost all posts)," I think any reading of my posts will reveal an expressed appreciation for material you have authored at least equal in weight to any criticism of material you have authored. What appears to have you confused is the volume of commentary devoted to criticism. Weight is not volume. When one is being critical of something, of course, the volume of commentary will reflect that. Were my intent to offer more praise, the volume of text would then reflect that. Doubtless, you would find praise more pleasant that criticism. That I have dwelt on the negatives hardly means that I recognize no positives, however. These positives, I believe, have been noted but the conversation has not moved toward simple glowing appreciations of your genius. Perhaps, it will. Perhaps, not. It is a truism that negatives always garner more immediate attention than positives. As the news people say, "If it bleeds, it leads (the newscast)."
I suppose I could now offer up profuse declartions of my everlasting love of your genius to "prove" that I do not find you the "hack" you claim I do. I would, however, find that unseemly and very much the "butt-kisser."
The alternative you offer me is the subtextual character assassin.
It seems in the first instance, you are going to have turn your back to me. In the second instance, it would also help matters along if you would turn around. If I am forced to choose between your alternatives, I will leave it to you to imagine what my choice will be. I would prefer not to be put to a false choice but if I have no other options then, please, be so kind as to face in the opposite direction. It will make matters much simpler.
If I may offer a bit of advice in the vernacular, "get over yourself." I find being being falsely accused of character assassination no more pleasant than you find being falsely accused of being a Nazi. Perhaps, we both have it wrong. _________________ GVD
From what I read of Erik's post it seemed tongue in cheek to me. He has taken both praise and real criticisms before, and in his position I'm sure he is used to it. The tone I got from it GVD, is that he likes your honesty and wants you to 'keep up the good work'.
I got the same impression that Mortellan did. Without smileys and such things, some statements can read in a very negative way. I tend to take those types of comments as if they were meant sarcastically, facetiously, or tongue-in-cheek for the most part.
It avoids an aweful lot of mess in the long run.
Far be it for me to speak for Erik, but I think he was simply poking fun at you good-naturedly GVD, and is enjoying the thread. Everyone is pretty friendly here and encourage each other to participate, so it would seem really odd to me if one of the more public voices for the WoG(and of these forums) would puposely and vindictively slander somebody within these forums. That makes no sense whatsoever.
And yes, the thread still trudges along mightily! The main thing I have taken from it has been that I have been "coerced" into more specifically defining my view of the various Suel factions, historical and otherwise, within my campaign setting. All in all, I'd say that is a pretty good thing.
From what I read of Erik's post it seemed tongue in cheek to me.
Perhaps my sense of humor or perspective needs a tune-up. That is certainly possible. The parentheticals in the material I quoted lead me to ascribe some level of seriousness to the commentary, however couched.
As I have given at least as "good," if all measures are measured, I cannot be too wounded and "turnabout is fair play."
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If I may, I would like to offer how I see the Suel of antiquity vs the Suel of today. The ancient Suel empire was driven. It was ambitious. It was cruel. It was evil. Plain and simple, this empire was not a nice benevolent society trying to encourage other races to rise up and meet their potential as peers.
As compared to the 83' brown box entry on the Suel, this is very scathing. The 83' version just mentions how they dress and what they look like. The Atlas of the Flanaess (FtA) mentions that the Scarlet Brotherhood are Suel racists, but we already knew that. A point is made that this is not generally the case with regards to those of Suel blood. Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins simply mentions very little in the way of the Suel, saying "They fled their old empire and the vengeful people who hated the "evil ways" of the Suel". That covers all of the basic entries on the Suel.
