This was discussed in a Greychat a month or more ago and I had wanted to pursue the idea in the forums to get other peoples' ideas but forgot about it until now.
A "coalescent deity" is a deity that has begun to attract worshipers beyond its initial worship group in significant enough numbers that the deity no longer "belongs to" its initial worship group but now has a broader, more diverse group of worshippers.
In Greyhawk, Ehlonna is perhaps the best example of a coalescent deity. She is worshipped by both elves and humans but does not "belong" to either group. Erythnul would be another example, worshipped by humans and humanoids. Dennari, worshipped by dwarves and humans, would be a third.
The "common" human deities might be said to be coalescent across cultures as opposed to races (human/demi/humanoid).
I know some see the Greyhawk deities as broadly syncretic but I do not. I see such syncreticism flying in the face of Greyhawk history, being unmotivated in the main and being not well advised in terms of flavor. I think coalescence works better.
Any thoughts on coalescent deities, with or without consideration of any syncretic impulse?
GVD, I would also include Fortubo, who abandoned the suel after the creation of derro and now watches over dwarves. Though his attention does no longer hold to the suel, I see no reason to deny a flan or oeridian cleric , for example. _________________ Kneel before Rahu!
this topic interests me a lot. Religion in Greyhawk is an area that I've never been to content with - there seems to be a lot of deities but only a few memorable ones...the whole gaggle of them is quite messy and a bit lacklustre.
In my campaign I have tried to incorporate a more unifying feel especially in the form of the demi-human deities. I have axed the Seldarine and the dwarven, gnomish and halfling pantheons. These pantheons were only added later I think. In my opinion I htink that originally Ehlonna was the main elven goddess...remember that the demi-humans only comprise a tiny percentage of Oerth's population compared to the humans. Ulaa for me is the main deity of the dwarves and the gnomes worship Ulaa and Ehlonna equally (Ehlonna is also described as having gnome followers). In my campaign Ehlonna has also become the goddess of the moon (mainly when worshipped in her aspect as Ehlenestra). I also felt that the only proper moon deity was Pholtus who doesn't come close to how I envisage a moon deity. Celestian is more linked to the stars it would seem.
I think it is a good idea to have the deities aquiring new aspects to their portfolios or losing them. Pyremius is a perfect example of this - he gained the portfolio of fire by posioning the original Suel fire goddess, Ranet.
Goin back to my previous paragraph about axing the demi-human pantheons. I thought it was interesting to note that Ulaa was originally a greater goddess strengthening my belief that she was originally intended to be the patron of the dwarves and the gnomes.
I decided that it was possible that all those deities of Common or Unknown origin could possibly have been worshipped originally by the non-human inhabitants of the Flannaess. Myrhiss was originally of common origin and not Flan and Lirr was also of common origin and not Oeridian. Myrhiss bears a great similarity to Hanali the elven goddess of beauty and so I have made her one of the main elven deities aswell. Olidimarra is another deitiy of common irigin and i have him as one of the main gnome gods replacing Baravar (and incorporating illusion into his portfolio) and also Erevan and Brandobaris of the elf and halfing pantheons. Some demi-human deities who I either paricularly like or think fill a special role has been relegated to demi-gods, hero-deities or lesser gods. I think the only elven god I didn't get rid of was Deep Sashelas as there wasn't another good sea deity I felt was appropriate and CG.
To keep with the high medieval feel of modern day greyhawk I changed all hero-deities to being Saints and patron saints of things.
Many of the evil deities in my campaign are how goddesses like Lolth were originally powerful demon princes and princesses who have aquired enough worshippers to become as powerful as deities. Although obviously some evil deities ar enot like that such as Hextor and Erythnul and Nerull etc...the demon and devil deities are generally worhsipped by humanoids or a few depraved humans and demi-humans.
I know a lot of you will be horrified by my approach but I feel it has really given my campaign a unified feel and much more character. The demi-humans pantheons were always distant and seemed to always have that generic feel to them. I think it might be cool to have for example Olidimarra referred to in the elven tongue as Erevan perhaps but there is no special need for this particularly.
Any comments on this idea would be welcome and if anyone would like to see how I have refigured my Flanaess cosmology then let me know.
Oh and sorry for kinda digressing from the original topic of this post..I kinda got carried away!
Hey folks. I like what you did Wolfling. I've never tried it because I started using REM's demi-human deities early in my campaigning and therefore am reluctanct to change my campaigns' cosmology so radically.
GVDammerung, I'm unsure of the (fine) distinction you're making between syncretic systems and coalescent ones. The former word seems to originate in linguistics and when used to discuss philosophy or religion, it highlights the historical development of such. The latter seems to originate from agriculture or cooking and highlights organic development. Am I missing your point?
Finally, in addition to Ehlonna, Ulaa, and Fortubo, I think that Cyndor and Beltar are "coalescent" deities, given GV's definition. Also, I agree with Wolfling about the deities mentioned, i.e., Erythnul, Hextor, Incabulous, Nerull, and Pyremius. I'm surprised by Myrhiss and Lirr and need some time to imagine those godesses' relationships to the Seldarine.
GVDammerung, I'm unsure of the (fine) distinction you're making between syncretic systems and coalescent ones. The former word seems to originate in linguistics and when used to discuss philosophy or religion, it highlights the historical development of such. The latter seems to originate from agriculture or cooking and highlights organic development. Am I missing your point?
LOL! I like the "cooking" idea! Actually, "coalescent" comes from physics, chemistry and engineering. It was popularized in two science-fiction classics. The movie, The Thing, and Star Trek, on an episode whose name escapes me.
There is a distinction between syncretisism and coalescence.
Syncreticism involves a blending/mixing or adoption that sees an established/dominant party take something of a newer/lesser party into its (eastablished/dominant) tradition. The end result is the established/dominant party with a new accent. A real world example would be the adoption of Christian elements into Hindu religious practice in Bengal.
Coalescence involves absorption, not adoption. An existing/older entity absorbs a newer entity resulting in the older entity in a new form. A real world example would be Caribbean Christianity, African belief systems are coalescent with Christian practice. The African belief systems have absorbed Christianity and while nominally "Christian" are, in fact, more African (at least at one point in time).
The character of Ehlonna is coalescent out of belief among elven and human worshippers. Although, one can argue which came first. It is not syncretic. My thought is that it is human belief coalescent with an elven deity.
If the common deities, to take an example, were once culture specific but through adoption across cultures have become common, they would be syncretic in extremis. I do not know that this is true of common deities, however, as they could also be unique to a new Flanaen community of belief, ab initio, owing nothing to preexisting cultural deities. They could also be coalescent, but we have few details as to how they became "common." I tend to see the common deities as syncretic.
I very much resist a syncretic approach to religion in the Flanaess generally because (1) it seems we have a more likely subset, the "common" deities, that are already syncretic; (2) we have some very strong cultural deities and cultures that seek to preserve their identities, which would include keeping their deities "pure;" (3) I like having both coalescent and syncretic deities and (4) I think a more general syncretic trend would loose some of the culture specific "flavor" of the setting (if all gods become more generally worshipped). For these reasons, one of the few bones I have to pick with the LGG is its assignment of "national gods," which I thought was done terribly, almost hazardly. This said, 3rd Edition in its "default" mode strongly suggests an increasing syncretic trend among those deities discussed. Of course, this is precisely because of the "default" but it is still there in any event.
GVD, I would also include Fortubo, who abandoned the suel after the creation of derro and now watches over dwarves.
I agree. The other deities that have been suggested are also likely candidates.
Wolfling wrote:
In my campaign I have tried to incorporate a more unifying feel especially in the form of the demi-human deities. I have axed the Seldarine and the dwarven, gnomish and halfling pantheons.
I have been reluctant to give up these non-human pantheons because they add color. If fact, I tend to expand them!
I think your points are very well taken and the system you suggest is entirely logical. It is more, I think, a matter of flavor.
I very much like the idea that non-humans once played a far greater role in the Flanaess, than they do now. I imagine they still play significant roles, but more quietly - the dwarves in Deep Oerth or the "Underdark" and the elves on the surface.
EGG missed a bet IMO by marginalizing demi-humans to the extent he did. But it is a matter of taste.
GVD, I think you would enjoy reading some of Argon's "of Oerth" series which can all be found on Argon's User Page. He makes some good and distinguishing points (with great liberty) on humanoid/demihuman issues as they pertain to religion. _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
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