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    Canonfire :: View topic - ToEE player help
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    ToEE player help
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 22, 2007
    Posts: 77
    From: Denton, Tx

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    Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:23 pm  
    ToEE player help

    Currently my players are in the dungeon under the moat house. One of the players decided to do some solo exploration. He's made it to the room with the giant crayfish and managed, through some lucky dice rolls, to dispatch it by himself. This places him close to Lareths' quarters. He has indicated that he wants to do more exploring. At level 3 he has no chance against Lareth or any of the other creatures in this part of the dungeon. Should I let him be captured or have him go out in a fruitless blaze of glory?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:23 pm  

    Back in the day, I would have totally killed the PC. Totally. But one can learn and grow. Laughing

    I would have the PC be captured and delivered to the ToEE to potentially be the subject of some awful experiment and/or ritual sacrifice. The other PCs could get there in time...or not.

    Maybe you make a timeline. If the PCs get there in time they can save the captured PC. If they are late, the captured PCs suffers some horrible treatment, but is alive. If the PCs show up really late, the PC is dead.

    Unless the players are completely inept, such as not having a clue about how to go about using spells like augury (to get a cryptic clue as to a course of action to take to find their friend), locate object (to find some item belonging to the missing PC), or speak with dead ("What'd you do with our buddy, Lareth!"), etc., I'd say the other PC's could get there in time, but the captured PC will not be getting XP for sitting in a cell (that's the real punishment), and may even end up being subjected to some horrible treatment that affects them in some irrevocable (at least for low level PCs who shouldn't have access to restoration/regeneration magic) way, such as being level drained by succubi/undead or being subjected to partial vivisection and losing partial/full function of a limb (or losing part/the whole of a limb!), being burned, scarred, or something else suitably ghastly and evil. It depends on how nasty you want to be, but a good rule of thumb is not to be nasty just for the sake of being nasty or to "punish" a stupid and/or inexperienced player (because we were all stupid and/or inexperienced players at one time or another Laughing) but to do so for the sake of creating a more compelling story/experience for ALL of the players. Cool

    Another consideration is that players simply might not be aware of what level of "grittiness" you want to have in your campaign, and its better not to shock them *directly* with a revelation (i.e. "You're character is dead! DEAD! That's how I roll!" Razz), but let players pick up on it more indirectly by having their characters witness the grittiness, and so know what they can likely expect when situations turn bad, rather than having it sprung on them. If they then purposely get in over their heads, it is on them.

    If you do opt for the PC's capture, I definitely recommend giving secret updates to the captured PC's player, as that ought to add to the fun of things while also letting the player know that their character might...MIGHT...still have a chance.

    Have fun! Evil Grin
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:00 am; edited 3 times in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:29 am  

    I tend agree with Cebrion on this one. I, too, can be pretty rough (Killer DM comes to mind as an epithet a few players have dubbed me, at least 'back in the day'), and don't fully mind killing PCs if they've done something stupid, reckless, and the like. But, as Cebrion notes, just being cruel for cruel's sake, at least as a DM (not as an NPC or villain, mind you!), doesn't really engender much respect from your players much less any enthusiasm for playing in your game.

    However, I am one to like a 'gritty' style campaign, much like a semi-softer version of Game of Thrones. There's certainly brutality, injustice, cruelty, and the like in my campaign world, but I don't go out of my way to totally harsh on my players without good reason.

    Also keep in mind the personality of Lareth. If this fool comes across his path and is no direct threat, Lareth is likely to capture him for interrogation rather than right-out kill him. With the spells at his disposal, Lareth is in a perfect position to glean valuable information from his PC in order to ascertain who is poking around the moathouse, the reason why, etc. Living subjects are easier to interrogate than dead ones, after all, even with spells like Speak with Dead.

    Keep the fool alive, for a while (a week or so) as Lareth uses magic and mundane means to interrogate the PC (and offer up a dose of torture, of course, but nothing that would completely debilitate the PC). I like Ceb's idea about a timeline. That way the rest of the party has enough leeway to mount a rescue.

    It's up to you if you want to 'role play' out the interrogation session with your other player on the side... Evil Grin

    If the party fails in its quest to save the scout, then he can be shipped off to the Temple of Elemental Evil, thereby providing a good reason and plot hook for the rest of the party to go there. In the interim, I suggest that you allow the player to roll up a secondary PC. That way the player isn't totally side-lined and dejected.

    just my thoughts,

    -Lanthorn
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    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
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    From: Next to Nowhere NV

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    Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:39 pm  

    Have to go with the more 'gritty' answer myself...

    If a player wants to overreach his capabilities, sometimes as a DM you have to let them... only way they will get better as a player is to make mistakes and then learn from them.

    In one of the original groups I played through the ToEE with, it took us almost 3 years (real time) playing an average of 2 times a week. There were over a dozen PC deaths in that time. But those players (all adults in the military with one exception) got better as a result (with one exception).

    To my mind, if there is no risk of character death, then players will just drift along at times. I have seen this on several occasions (especially in mid-high level play). A clumsy character death (with the loss of magic, gear, etc) can bring players back to their A game very quickly.

    Think of the first character you took through Ravenloft, the Tomb of Horros or half a dozen other of the 'classics' I would wager a great many players and DMs can tell you a great deal about that character. Because they played with the certain knowledge that character loss was a real possiblity. It wasn't 'oh we will play another couple of rooms and then see how we are doing' it was probably more like 'let's try and get one more room completed and then fort up for the night so we can be fresh for the next room... just that... one more room."

    I have been on both sides of the screen for 35+ years from 1st edition up to Pathfinder (tried both 4e and 5e just not to my tastes) and still love this game because I can sit down with a group of players (either in a home brew or at a Con) and not know what is in that next room. And that includes the possible loss of a dear alter ego.

    Cebrion's idea of allowing the overly bold PC to be captured rather than killed is also one I have used myself upon occasion over the years. Especially when the player realized that he or she was probably in over their head. So give them a chance to read the waters as it were and if they still jump in, well that is how they learn.

    In any case, ToEE will probably have more than one of them wishing for a life preserver as it were... Good luck and good gaming.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:17 am  

    GreyMage, I couldn't have said it any better. Very well put.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:27 am  

    Another bit. These are general thoughts on the topic. We don't know the amount of playing experience this player has. If they are a n00b, I would probably tell the player that they are outnumbered and likely in over their head, which means the player ought to figure out that the proper course of action is to "RUN AWAY!!!" If the n00b player doesn't pick up on such a "subtle" hint, go for capture and potential torture/death at the ToEE scenario (with secret messages being given to the player). That will add some tension to the adventure and provide some learn'n for the player too. I the character is rescued without harm, I'd still say something like, "They barely got to your character in time. One more day of game time and it would have been an auspicious day for a sacrifice to be made in the earth/air/fire/water temple, and your character was next up on the list." Evil Grin

    If this is a full-on veteran player though, I'd not be opposed be capture and auto-death in the ToEE, where the remains might later be found. That could end up with an interesting scene if speak with dead were used on the character's remains to find out (potentially key) information. So, death with a possible purpose then, if the other players are smart enough to make a bit of lemonade out of lemons. There is also the possibility that the character could be raised/resurrected/reincarnated at some later point in time.

    Just one note. Five characters died when I ran ToEE. An assassin killed three early on (you likely know what triggers the assassin's appearance), and another two died in the Temple proper. My Greyhawk is a dark and dangerous place. Regular cities, towns, and even villages like Hommlet are dangerous enough places, but outright evil places are filled with unforgiving evil. Tread lightly veteran players.
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
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    From: Verbobonc

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    Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:32 pm  

    Maybe one or two opportunities may arise for the player to escape in transit... if he doe escape or is rescued, he may possess detailed information about how the Temple moves supplies and victims around.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
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    From: Next to Nowhere NV

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    Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:59 pm  

    Cebrion,

    I TOTALLY agree with the point about leaving the character's remains to be found later. Speak with dead is a great way to have a dead PC pass on vital information ('I was killed by an assassin').

    And like you my Greyhawk is a dark, foreboding place filled with peril. But, also a place of high magic and real rewards. Sort of like that old saying 'with great power comes great rewards' errr... you know I mean. :)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 22, 2007
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    From: Denton, Tx

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    Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:58 pm  

    Thanks all. Last weekend we did some one-on-one gaming so that next session time isn't taken away from the party. I decided to go with the character being captured. He narrowly avoided a encounter with Lareth but ended up encountering the group of gnolls. He decided to run back the way he had come(he had previously explored this area but hadn't stumbled into the gnolls lair) towards the crypts instead of taking the shorter route back to the party. The gnolls give pursuit. The character arrives in the crypts and dives into one of the burial niches and tries to hide. The lead gnoll nat 20'd on his spot check and alerts the other gnolls of the players where abouts. The player decides to fight it out and through lucky rolls on his part and some pretty bad ones on mine he manages to take out all of the gnolls single handily.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:40 pm  

    Haha! The cornered rat can be dangerous. Laughing
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:10 am  

    From a game dynamics point of view, I would concur with the view that the Player should unless the dice roll favourably suffer a logical fate. If they can be captured let it be so.
    Loss of magic items/ equipment can be a sobering experience. Especially if items used against party
    Also how does party react to their weaknesses/ strengths being used against them in an ambush?
    Hostage situation - surrender or watch friend die.
    Captured PC turned by magic inducement
    Embrace the possibilities
    Good to see they survived, common sense prevails
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