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    Canonfire :: View topic - Complete Adventurer - Almost Complete Waste
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    Complete Adventurer - Almost Complete Waste
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:49 pm  
    Complete Adventurer - Almost Complete Waste

    I just got the Complete Adventurer, written by Jesse Decker. It is a total waste of the "core setting." There was every opportunity to have the "core setting" represented in the Complete Adventurer entries. There are no references that I can see. Instead, the author entertains readers with nonesuch places for which a string of random characters would serve as well.

    After the fantastic use of the "core setting" in the Complete Arcane and very nice use in the Complete Divine, it is a shame to see no Greyhawk references in the Complete Adventurer.

    The design itself is also rather lackluster. A few things can probably be salvaged but this is, by far, the weakest entry in the series - for completists only.

    GVD Mad
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    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 719
    From: Bronx, NY

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    Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:57 pm  

    I think you overestimate the quality.
    Most of the new feats and spells appear to have serious balance issues, never mind the sheer number of them. I am glad it has little "core" content, as references to these contents would stain Greyhawk rather than enhance it.
    Bleah.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:11 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    I think you overestimate the quality.


    ROFL! Laughing I was trying to be nice. Wink

    GVD
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    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:49 pm  
    Complete Adventurer

    I just purused it at the local store, but it seemed to have no GH at all. In a few pages i noted that a) i thought the content was an improvement over figher and divive; and b) it begged for a setting, any setting.

    However the entire series has been flawed at best. THe overall quality has been poor and it seems that almost every concept contained is a poor imitation of some other D20 publication; from Prestige Classes to Feat names, very little was original, and in almost all instances I prefer the original.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:50 pm  

    Quote:
    THe overall quality has been poor and it seems that almost every concept contained is a poor imitation of some other D20 publication; from Prestige Classes to Feat names, very little was original, and in almost all instances I prefer the original.
    When you need a class book out and you are pressed for time, compiling old material into a new book is the way to go! Give the author some breathing room, he's been busy... Wink

    In the last two years not only did Decker work on the original Complete Warrior, he has also brought us such 'core' gems as Monster Manual III, Races of Stone, Unearthed Arcana (2004), Arms and Equipment Guide, Book of Exalted Deeds and Savage Species. But he did have time to do some setting work on the much recent Races of Eberron and Eberron Campaign Setting.
    Confused
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 18, 2001
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    Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:42 pm  

    The Fochlucan lyricist screams old lore bard. The fact that this tie is never made just makes me think that Jesse Decker is a rabid Forgotten Realms fan.

    I am sure there are other pieces of Core setting stuff that he shies away from as well.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    From: Nyrond

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    Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:03 pm  

    Hey Everyone,

    If I may be as so bold to offer my observation, WOTC is still in the political correctness/inclusive of everyone stage. They are making books that are so generic as to include everyone, which is a shame because it lowers the specific quality of each book. Let's face it, I'm not going to meet a Kinder in Greyhawk, I'm going to meet hairfoots, stouts and tallfellows! Anyway, the books are of such poor quality that people will not buy them, which will bring down sales, leading WOTC to say that RPGs are on the decline again (slaps forehead). Give me a quality book for the Forgotten Realms. Fine. Give me a quality book for Ebberon. Fine. Give me a quality book for World of Greyhawk and I'll make sure that me and everyone in my group buys one! Support me and I *will* support you.

    Go buy a copy of Dungeon,
    The new map is fandamntastic,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:39 am  
    Author

    Mort, I hold nothing against the author. I have greatly enjoyed some of their other works, Unearthed Arcana being first among them. Maybe their workload is the reason these books have been 2nd rate.

    But for $30 or so, no breaks here. WOTC has to know, as Dwarf Of Nyrond points out, that we gamers are picky. We spend a great deal of time with this stuff and want quality. On this board, we want quality GH, but gamers in general demand quality. OGL allows us to choose the best stuff out there.

    If they, the company, makes Quality the charge, Drecker, Noonan, Willams and the whole crew will surpass our expectations, of this I am confidant. If WOTC chooses to put out product that are hurried, they may find that TSRs fate is their own.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:50 am  

    The Complete books generally rank in the top 500 before they are released at Amazon.

    Which frankly means they make oodles of money considering the price point on these books.

    The reason WotC shies away from getting Greyhawk specific in the core books is to not alienate the FR fanboys who are more integral to their initial sales. Grehawkers as a whole have a tendency to stay with 2nd ed. or even 1st edition so it really doesn't make much sense for them to cater to such a small demographic.

    LG doesn't drive initial sales because they are always late to adopt the new rules in the Complete books.

    I don't label something poorly written based on marketing and solvency issues.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:04 pm  

    Quote:
    The reason WotC shies away from getting Greyhawk specific in the core books is to not alienate the FR fanboys who are more integral to their initial sales.
    Oh I can believe it, I just still can't believe they would waste GH as a 'reference world'. If WotC is all about marketing then FR should've been the core setting, why didn't they cater to their base if that's the bottom line?



    Quote:
    Mort, I hold nothing against the author. I have greatly enjoyed some of their other works, Unearthed Arcana being first among them. Maybe their workload is the reason these books have been 2nd rate.
    I ain't totaly slamming Decker either, the workload is something I noticed yet it still didn't keep him from getting involved in much more meticulously derived material like Eberron. Either they are short staffed at WotC or Decker is a workaholic. Shocked Anyways of the books I mentioned, (all of which I had perused at a store) I believe the only one I bought is the original Complete Warrior, is this intentional or by accident? Before this thread I never had any idea who Decker was nor even knew his complete list of works until I looked it up. Subliminally odd.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:05 am  

    Phoebus wrote:

    The reason WotC shies away from getting Greyhawk specific in the core books is to not alienate the FR fanboys who are more integral to their initial sales. Grehawkers as a whole have a tendency to stay with 2nd ed. or even 1st edition so it really doesn't make much sense for them to cater to such a small demographic.

    A noticeable lack of GH material presented for 3e/3.5 is more of a reason why many 'Hawkers haven't switched systems. The new skills system is the biggest gem of 3e imo, and it is something easily integrated into the older systems. Feats have their flavor as well. Some things I'll leave the same, such as the lack of restriction on the animate dead spell and other spell effects. I am least pleased with some of the changes in the effects of certain spells and some magic items, but those are easily corrected.

    As the The Complete Adventurer, I think that a few mistakes were made with this book. This should have been predominantly the book for rogues, and while it does focus on them, it doesn't do so to the extent that the other "complete" books focused on their class groups. The lack of GH content is somewhat disappointing, but not that big a deal for me. Not as much"GH cool factor" to some extent. I know which prestige classes fit my Greyhawk and which do not(I think I run a very "traditional" Greyhawk setting that remains true to the settings earlier works). So the thief-acrobat is in, and I do like the 5 level structure for this prestige class better than the 10 level version in Song and Silence. Some of the feats will work very well, while others will be unavailable to my players, but to each their own.

    I think there is much usable material within the book (with a bit of tweaking here and there); at least enough to buy it. Lets face it, with so many different people in the world playing this game, no written material is going to please everyone all of the time. If most people can come away being happy with at least half of the material, then I'd say that the book serves its purpose.

    I must say that I am disappointed that "Guild Thief", or better yet "Greyhawk Guild Thief" didn't make it into this book that should have focused more on rogues and ended up being a catch-all type of book for everything that had not been printed in the other books in the series.


    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:47 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Phoebus wrote:

    The reason WotC shies away from getting Greyhawk specific in the core books is to not alienate the FR fanboys who are more integral to their initial sales. Grehawkers as a whole have a tendency to stay with 2nd ed. or even 1st edition so it really doesn't make much sense for them to cater to such a small demographic.


    A noticable lack of GH material presented for 3e/3.5 is more of a reason why many 'Hawkers haven't switched systems.


    I know I will buy a 3e/3.5 product if it has tangental Hawk, like the Complete Arcane. Was the Complete Arcane so hard to Hawk? I think not.

    Was it a mammoth undertaking or a dangerous one to not Hawk the Complete Adventurer? Did the Hawk in Complete Arcane turn off the FR folks so much that the Complete Adventurer took a lesson? Since these books are written months ahead of time, the answer to the latter question is an undebateable "no."

    Jesse Decker chose not to Hawk the Complete Adventurer. If GH was not the "default" or "core setting," I'd have no quibble with that decision, but it is. I do not damn Decker for his choice but he wins no points from me for having made it.

    As to the actual mechanics and chrome of the text, it is lackluster. I agree that the book lacks focus, reprints material wildly and demonstrates little that could be tagged interesting or novel. Its a great big splat book. IMHO, it went splat.

    GVD
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