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Canonfire :: View topic - A Paucity of Ports
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A Paucity of Ports
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Woesinger
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF you assume the South Province was slumbering at the time, then a squabble between Nyrond and Onnwal is possible. The dates you mention straddle the end of the reign of Ivid III and the beginning of the reign of Ivid IV. We know that the middle Ivids were little concerned with the outside world, except occasionally almost ritually attacking Nyrond and Almor and we hear little or nothing about the Hertzogs of the South in this period.

If you contrast this to the ascention of Ivid V in the 550s, who appoints the Chelors with the express orders to reclaim the south, it is possible that the South Province was on the nod in the early decades of the 500s. In that case, if an imminent threat was absent, then its possible that Onnwal and Nyrond would have squabbled over trade.

That said, I think that raising tolls is likely to hurt Onnwal more than it'll hurt Nyrond. Nyrondese ships heading towards Hardby would simply bypass Onnwalon ports entirely. Trade through the Straits is little more tricky. The Onnwalons would be foolish to try to impose a toll on passage of the straits, since ships would simply ignore it, refuse to heave to or fight if boarded, which will piss off Keoland AND Nyrond AND Ulek AND Greyhawk and the Urnsts. Where they could have an effect is on excises to berth at Scant - which would be an important stop over for ships plying the routes between the Azure and Gearnat (esp. the Gradsul/Gryrax to Gearnat ports route). Even so - again I'd think it'd hurt the Onnwal exchequer - since all ships have to do is lay in more food and water and sail right by.
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Samwise
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CruelSummerLord wrote:
Well, what I meant was thzt statesmen of the past could do things that seem stupid to people in hindsight but seemed perfectly reasonable at the time.


Yes, and what I meant is there is stupid and then there is war. There is a rather sharp line between the two.

As for other effects, I agree with Woesinger. There will be fees, but the higher they are the less trade Onnwal will get, and the worse off they will be. Especially Given the width of the straits. The English Channel couldn't be significantly hampered before the 18th century, and the Straits of Gibraltar couldn't be sealed before the 20th. Without gunpowder, closing the Gearnat Straits will be near impossible.
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Woesinger
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is not to say that a foolish szek mightn't have tried it out as a policy, but he wouldn't have needed the Nyrondese to sail in and destroy his fleet to realise it was a bad idea - his own merchants and nobles would probably have done Nyrond's work for it and given the Platinum Diadem to someone more "reality-based".
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samwise wrote:
The English Channel couldn't be significantly hampered before the 18th century, and the Straits of Gibraltar couldn't be sealed before the 20th. Without gunpowder, closing the Gearnat Straits will be near impossible.
I hate to ruin this perfectly good comparitive historical lesson by mentioning the obvious but yes, I am talking magic. Even at a low magic campaign it cannot be ignored that the Keoish have Sea Mages, the SB make malign use of magic for naval purposes and it doesn't take much imagination to figure that the Aerdy have magic weilding navies given their history of martial magic. Gunpowder would certainly make all ships in a navy equally potent, but if done right, magic can make just one ship the equivalent of a high speed, sonar using, offensive-defensive destroyer against medieval vessels. That alone can make life difficult going through a strait.

Just in case, here are some examples of naval magic items -just- from GH Adventures: Rod of the Aerdi Sea (defensive, cloaking device), Rod of Onnwal (defensive vs winds and missiles), Scant Wand of Storms (offensive-defensive, tactical use), Disk of the Azure Sea (defensive-cloaking), Hasty Barge of Nyr Dyv (defensive vs sea creatures, increased speed), Horn of the Azure Sea (offensive, fear power), Iron Pin of the Icy Sea (defensive vs hazards, directional device), Stormrider of Gearnat (defensive vs weather, increased speed)
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Samwise
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I hate to ruin a casual appeal to magic, but a wizard's spell capacity is more limited than a warships stores of gunpowder and shot.
Yes, magic will cut down on getting lost and storm damage, but its overall effect on combat is not going to be that decisive unless completely unmatched.
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Crag
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to disagree but magic in a naval context could and should be decisive;

Fire-based magic
Water-based magic
Weather control
Transmutation
Communication
Invisibility
Underwater Operations
Illusion
Summoned Monsters
Undead

Should all prove devastating in Naval combat, without considering the uses of the underwater races.

Keep your cannons samwise; give me magic.
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Samwise
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the duration of most spells, and the number a low level caster can be expected to have access to, they might be decisive in a particular instance, but they won't be decisive on a regular basis.
One fireball won't destroy a ship. And it would take at least two missiles if not all three from a 5th level caster to kill even an average 1st level warrior with magic missile. Other spells that would be useful won't have the range.
So barring 9th+ level casters on every single ship, magic is going to enhance combat strength, not define it. And at the point that you've got dozens of such casters running around on your ships, you've not only eliminated any concept of mundane combat, but left yourself open to explaining why long distance trade isn't just dominated by teleportation. Sure those 9th level wizards mess up 6% of the time (3% of the time if they have private pads to teleport too in each market area), but 13th level wizards are always safe, and it just takes 1 overachieving 17th level wizard to set up a permanent teleportation circle network. Control of sea trade routes becomes irrelevant at that point.
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mages on every boat, fireballs, magic missiles, etc. I wasn't going to go that far, demographics of mages is what I planned on avoiding. My main intention is that magic enhanced vessels and or items in possession of senior crewmembers is effective enough to coordinate the standard naval group. The original intent of Sam's quote that I came in on, was 'closing a strait' not naval combat per se. Detection, Communication and Intercepting is key in this case and from the items I listed many can help avoid a blockade too.
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Samwise
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mortellan wrote:
Mages on every boat, fireballs, magic missiles, etc. I wasn't going to go that far, demographics of mages is what I planned on avoiding. My main intention is that magic enhanced vessels and or items in possession of senior crewmembers is effective enough to coordinate the standard naval group. The original intent of Sam's quote that I came in on, was 'closing a strait' not naval combat per se. Detection, Communication and Intercepting is key in this case and from the items I listed many can help avoid a blockade too.


OK, and what level spell of detection would have a range of 10 miles? Or even 1 mile?
What level spell of communication is going to allow immediate, extended, coherent contact at 30 miles?
What level spell will accelerate a ship long enough to close over that distance?

The items you named are useful, but:
Rod of the Aerdi Sea - fog cloud in a 20 ft radius won't save a ship of any decent size, spectral forces and programmed illusion are going to wind up useless against a crew of 50, at least one of who will make a save.
Rod of Onnwal - is useless, it won't stop missiles, and becalming your own ship is a great way to commit suicide in a naval battle.
Scant Wand of Storms - sounds great, but the big damage power is limited to 70 yards (barring a conversion upgrade), and is thus of less use than otherwise, and the big power comes with a 30% chance of wreaking major havoc, hardly worth it.
Disk of the Azure Sea - is great for merchants to escape trouble, but useless for a navy to control an area.
Hasty Barge of Nyr Dyv - great if you want to commit suicide by going under the first time the weather picks up at sea.
Horn of the Azure Sea - useful 1/week, at night, and probably only by an evil captain to get some undead fire support, marginal at best.
Iron Pin of the Icy Sea - an excellent item for navigating between points, which will cut down on incidental losses and speed concentrating a fleet, but otherwise of marginal use in battle.
Stormrider of the Gearnat Sea - an exceptional item, combined with an Iron Pin, it will make the owner master of sailing, it won't however guarantee victory in combat, and I expect it is a prime candidate for its cost to surge, and I doubt every ship in a navy could be built that way.

Overall, none of those items are of great value in controlling the seas.
Now we could turn to Stormwrack for some new items:
Admiral's Bicorne - nice bonuses, costs 50K. ZOUNDS!
Everfull Sails - incredible bonuses, costs 12K . . . per mast! That's 36K for an average galleon, more if we count the bowsprit.
Living Figurehead - 40K+.
Sails of Displacement - 120K.
Secure Lines - at 10,800 gp, this qualifies as "reasonable," and provides a nice bonus, but is still pretty costly.

As for spells, Wake Trailing, if you can find a 7th level druid or 11th level ranger, will change things dramatically. Of course, finding one of those opens the whole demographics issue again.
Favorable Wind will make a significant difference in combat, and a 5th level druid or wizard isn't out of the question. It will almost certainly ensure that galleys become obsolete in short order, at least for combat.
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Prochytes
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samwise wrote:

OK, and what level spell of detection would have a range of 10 miles? Or even 1 mile?
.


1st level.

Locate city, a 1st level spell from Races of Destiny, has a range of 10 miles/level. My sorcerer uses it for GPS. She moves around a lot; Rel Astra does not. Knowing exact distance and direction to a fixed point makes her orienteering a lot easier. This trick only really comes into its own at higher levels, though, and I take your point that other low-level divinations have nowhere near as much scope.
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Samwise
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prochytes wrote:
1st level.

Locate city, a 1st level spell from Races of Destiny, has a range of 10 miles/level. My sorcerer uses it for GPS. She moves around a lot; Rel Astra does not. Knowing exact distance and direction to a fixed point makes her orienteering a lot easier. This trick only really comes into its own at higher levels, though, and I take your point that other low-level divinations have nowhere near as much scope.


And that will only help you launch sneak attacks from out of sight of the coast, it won't help you find enemy fleets sneaking around.
Its a useful spell, one of the few ones, but not a sea control spell.
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