Joined: Jun 28, 2007 Posts: 582 Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: It's Available: Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
So what did you folks think about the book? Can we discuss it without ruining any plot lines for the others out there?
Thought it was very good, with the exception of the conclusion. Guess I'll have to change that part. Very Greyhawkish. Attention of Greyhawk lore and world oriented details very good, not perfect, but exceeded my expectations (which were pretty high in the first place).
But for now, my group needs to get out of Ravenloft alive. Then its on the way back to Greyhawk. Divine magic is on its way out in my world (which really sucks because Eileen is a cleric) because there is a war gearing up between arcane and divine magic, which is being orchestrated by a powerful group of undead spellcasters.
Now all I have to do is figure out how to add to the module so that I can possibly get some divine magic back. Dungeon is big enough, I'm sure there is room. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Joined: Jun 28, 2007 Posts: 582 Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:59 am Post subject:
The cast of NPCs was incredible. Extremely impressive. On the downside, take a good look at the picture of the dragon (page 69) and then read the corresponding text (pages 68 and 84 Oooops! You have to wonder how that hapened. Oh well, no harm done. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Joined: Mar 30, 2007 Posts: 161 Location: Yorkshire, Britain
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:19 am Post subject:
True, but I'll forgive them as they put in a half drow-half succubus in.
Maybe they're trying to make up for the loss of demonic beauties caused by the canning of Dungeon. (Think I'm kidding? The last few issues have at least one example of fiendish eye candy in the Savage Tide adventures)
Joined: Jun 28, 2007 Posts: 582 Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:05 am Post subject:
I found mine at the local bookstore which doesn't even have that great of a D&D selection. I went there looking for the last issue of Dungeon magazine (which wasn't there yet) and instead found the Expedition to the Ruins of Grehawk, well naturally I couldn't walk away from that.
Check out your nearest store that carries D&D they probably already have it or will when they receive their next shipment. Good luck and great reading. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Joined: Feb 07, 2007 Posts: 61 Location: The Kingdom of Nyrond (LA County, CA)
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:24 am Post subject:
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
I found mine at the local bookstore which doesn't even have that great of a D&D selection. I went there looking for the last issue of Dungeon magazine (which wasn't there yet) and instead found the Expedition to the Ruins of Grehawk, well naturally I couldn't walk away from that.
Check out your nearest store that carries D&D they probably already have it or will when they receive their next shipment. Good luck and great reading.
Thanks, Eileen! Went last night to my local Borders and they had three. So foar, it looks like it's going to be a good module.
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 830 Location: Wichita, KS, USA
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:35 am Post subject:
No luck in Wichita: none of the game/comic book stores, nor B&N have EttRoG in stock. I haven't checked Borders, so at this rate I may just order from Amazon to save the extra $$$.... _________________ Allan.
---
Allan Grohe
grodog@gmail.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I finished my primary read-thru tonight. I'll read it again tomorrow.
First impressions:
Less of a 'campaign book' and more like 'campaign sketch book'. Lots of material, skimpy on detail. Some great ideas (especially for anyone who'd read the previous Castle Greyhawk material) but I got the feeling that WoTC cut down the end product to squeeze it into a predetermined page length/book format.
Maps were good, probably could be used in conjuntion with previously published material to bring it up to code. Artwork was ok, some very nice portraits, but not very many of them. Tactical maps seemed well thought out.
Not much in the way of new magic or new creatures. The ending seemed...contrived.
Overall, I think this book could be used with the 'Ruins of Greyhawk' publication to create/update the old setting into something spectacular....might be a worthwhile future project. As it stands, the book/adventure isn't 'perfect' but it more than gets the job done. IMHO, it's a good purchase, if for no other reason than to show WoTC that 'offical' support of the World of Greyhawk is a soild investment.
Joined: Jun 28, 2007 Posts: 582 Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:18 am Post subject:
I agree with weaver95 for the most part. The book was sketchy in spots probably to squeeze in as much material as possible. I will end up adding to it before I run it, adding maps to the areas where it leaves off using their guidlines.
The section on the City of Greyhawk could have been shorter in order to put more ruins in.
I loved the use of major NPCs.
I really disliked the ending if the characters succeed. No more Castle Greyhawk in the Flanaess.....How can this be. How can you have Greyhawk with no castle?
I'd give the adventure and plot a solid 8.5. I'd give the ending Concluding the Adventure (page 188) a 2 mainly because they say it goes bye bye.
But I see that as a minor change. If they ever have a follow up adventure however, I may run into trouble when the time comes.
I encourage everyone to buy it, it really is a great adventure and shows WOTC that Greyhawk fans demand their attention. We deserve it. After all we are the first fans (in regards to a campaign world at least) and the fact that were still here (despite their avoidance) says volumes. WOTC should be thanking us for suporting them, not the other way around. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Joined: Apr 18, 2005 Posts: 26 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:44 am Post subject:
I've really been looking forward to purchasing an actual Greyhawk product. I'll will buy it regardless of reviews, but since as we are likely to see it last here down under, I was wondering if someone who has a copy could provide a bit of a sketch of the content.
1. How much info is there about the City of Greyhawk? I have the box sets so I don't really need much.
2. Could you list some of the major (famous) NPCs that have stats provided in the book?
3. Any other part of the content that is worth a mention? Maps, artwork, obscure references?
1. How much info is there about the City of Greyhawk? I have the box sets so I don't really need much.
There's a general map of the city, and a small area is better detailed (river quarter). But not every street in every quarter is shown, and there is only passing reference to the rest of the city.
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2. Could you list some of the major (famous) NPCs that have stats provided in the book?
Vayne (he of Iuz's Boneheart fame), Iggwilv (sort of - you'll see what I mean when you get the book). The rest of the 'big players' are mostly there for color (Tenser and Mordenkanen and all the rest), so no stat blocks for them. There might have been a few others that I missed, I can go back thru the book looking for stat blocks later.
Quote:
3. Any other part of the content that is worth a mention? Maps, artwork, obscure references?
This book covers a LOT of ground. More than a few demi-planes (which SHOULD have been better covered in the book) and pocket dimensions. A general overview of the castle is provided (with a nice map on pg 43), but only some areas are covered in detail. Lots of name dropping, a very obvious tie in to Maure castle as a sub-plot, and a good update from the old 'Ruins of Greyhawk' book. Anyone who's played that adventure will find this book a nice upgrade.
However, despite the broad array of topics and length of the tome, it lacks in detail. specifically, if you can aquire a copy of 'Isle of the Ape' and 'Dungeonland', do so now and start updating them to 3.5 rules. They're integral to the ending portion of the campaign plot, but details on those areas are thin. Too thin to be playable IMHO, but with some work (and illegal .pdf copies scavenged from the net) it could be done.
As for the ending plot....I don't want to give anything away, but I didn't like how it turns out. I should clarify - I liked everything about the plot EXCEPT the ending. Even if you succeded in your quest, Bad Things happen to the Castle. Things which you can't prevent and things which the authors shouldn't have included. Again, just my opinion, so take it for what you will.
One last recommendation - if you have a copy of 'Ruins of Greyhawk', dig it out of storage and have it handy while reading and/or running 'Expedition to Ruins of Greyhawk'. I think that between the two books (and updating some of the older modules related to the Ruins) it would be possible to construct one hell of a long term campaign. Also, again I strongly urge you to find a copy of Dungeonland and Isle of the Ape and update them to the 3.5 rule set. Also, if you can get a copy of the Maure castle adventures from Dungeon magazine (paizo should have a list on their website somewhere), you could easily tie it all together for one large uber-adventure.
Again, a 'Expedition' is well worth the price. But I feel like the writers sacrificed more than a few critical pieces of information in order to meet a pre-determined book length/format. I would have prefered a bit more detail in some areas....but aside from that quibble, I'd rate it a good buy.
I really disliked the ending if the characters succeed. No more Castle Greyhawk in the Flanaess.....How can this be. How can you have Greyhawk with no castle?
This is really disapointing. The last chapter was one of my sections of the book (although Erik helped design the Hall of Memory), but in my turnover, Castle Greyhawk didn't go anywhere. You'll note at the very end of the adventure a section called "Continuing the Adventure" that lists several other subplots; in my final turnover, there was an entry for "The Wandering Dungeon" that I put in at WotC's request for a mechanic that would allow Castle Greyhawk to "manifest" on other worlds. In "The Wandering Dungeon," the end plays out the same but instead of transporting Castle Greyhawk away from the world, it turns it into a sort of planar nexus, a castle that manifests on multiple worlds at the same time. Sort of like the World Serpent Inn. But it explicitly kept the castle where it started, in Greyhawk. AND, like the other "Continuing the Adventure" entries, it was presented more as an option than anything else.
But, when you get down to it, Greyhawk IS owned by WotC, so they can do with it as they wish. I think having the Castle move out of the world is a terrible idea, personally, and for fans of the setting I'd suggest ignoring that whole section completely. It's not how I intended the adventrue to end, that's for sure, and it frustrates me quite a lot. Enough to finally get around to creating an account here, which I suppose is a good thing. :)
James Jacobs
Editor-in-Chief: Pathfinder
Last edited by JJacobs on Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 75 Location: Renton, WA
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: On Lame Last-Minute Changes
I agree with James. What a lame edit at the end there. That's disappointing.
By my read, though, you only have to ignore a couple sentences on the second-to-last page, so it could have been a lot worse. Aside from a handful of times when the art doesn't even come close to matching the descriptions in the book (black dragon and Captain Gollancz, I'm looking at you), Wizards doesn't seem to have added any major errors into the book, which is a relief.
Anyway, here's hoping that last minute ill-advised change doesn't ruin too many people's enjoyment of the book. It goes without saying that we would have loved more space to play with, but you get what they offer in this case, and we tried to make it the best product possible under the circumstances.
Joined: Jan 05, 2002 Posts: 439 Location: Central Utah
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject:
If the worst thing about the book is the ending, I'm sure the collective creativity here on CF can come up with a better one. Postfest anyone? Rewrite the ending?
If I was extremely cynical, I would suggest that the Castle is removed from Greyhawk so that it can become part of a core / default presentation, like Tenser's spells and certain gods, etc. "Castle Greyhawk" is then available to be played in Eberron! Wooo! By transferring the best parts of Greyhawk out of Greyhawk, the IP owners can reap the benefit without actually having to support the setting. Good thing I am not actually that cynical. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 75 Location: Renton, WA
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject:
I think that's clearly the intention (Eberron is mentioned explicitly, as is Mystara). I don't object to this option being made available, btw. There is obvious value in including a Castle Greyhawk disassociated from its traditional setting trappings, and it's Wizards of the Coast's right to do this since they own Castle Greyhawk lock, stock, and barrel.
But I'd advocate leaving a permanent copy behind, so that Greyhawk traditionalists get to keep the castle for which the setting is named.
In any event, like I said this involves ignoring a paragraph of text, tops, so please don't let it dissuade you from checking out the product. I've been reading it over tonight, and it's very enjoyable (if I do say so myself!).
But, when you get down to it, Greyhawk IS owned by WotC, so they can do with it as they wish. I think having the Castle move out of the world is a terrible idea, personally, and for fans of the setting I'd suggest ignoring that whole section completely. It's not how I intended the adventrue to end, that's for sure, and it frustrates me quite a lot. Enough to finally get around to creating an account here, which I suppose is a good thing. :)
James Jacobs
Editor-in-Chief: Pathfinder
I like the planar nexus idea, consider that one assimilated!
Overall, I liked the book. I can take what I've already used/developed, tie it in with what Dungeon magazine had put together in various issues and plug it into one super large, comprehensive adventure that takes my players wherever they want to go, all based off of what you wrote.
My only quibble (and as I said, it's a relatively minor quibble), is that depth was sacrificed for width. Understandable, if regretable just the same.
Joined: Jun 28, 2007 Posts: 582 Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:44 am Post subject:
James and Eric:
Thanks for taking the time to respond to the emails left by fans of Greyhawk. Your opinions and input are always an asset and I for one hope you both find the time and interest to visit Canonfire more frequently. Not only will it expand Greyhawk (which is why were here) but it also allows you to get to know the biggest Greyhawk fans out there.
I fully understand your space requirements and felt that overall, it was an excellent job. Thanks for letting us know where you stood on the objectionable ending. Eric your right, we only need to ignore 1-2 sentances, which in a home campaign is very easy to do.
All in all, I just wanted to say thanks for the great Greyhawk product and I hope you guys, the regulars of Canonfire, and myself can one day produce more official content. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Re: On Lame Last-Minute Changes
iquander wrote:
Anyway, here's hoping that last minute ill-advised change doesn't ruin too many people's enjoyment of the book. It goes without saying that we would have loved more space to play with, but you get what they offer in this case, and we tried to make it the best product possible under the circumstances.--Erik
And you did VERY well, at least in the opinion of this obscure and minor web commentator anyways. I'm forced to wonder at the reasons for the last minute (and heavy handed) ending that WoTC slapped onto the end of the campaign. It seemed artifical and contrived when I first read it, and now reading what you and James wrote i'm forced to wonder WHY they added it. It's obviously not what you wanted when you finished the book. Any thoughts on their reasons?
In larger terms (and slightly off topic) that sort of attitude is exactly what makes me cautions with regards to WoTC's 'gleemax' web portal. Heavy handed and autocratic editorital decisions for reasons known only to the corporate types, sacrificing artistic integrety in support of some obscure corporate goal.
Joined: Jun 28, 2007 Posts: 582 Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:18 am Post subject:
Weaver95
You hit it right on the head with your heavy handed comment, WOTC and Gleemax. As Eric and James pointed out WOTC owns it, they can do what they want. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 75 Location: Renton, WA
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:18 am Post subject:
I suspect that they want the opportunity to keep Castle Greyhawk, the first-ever mega-dungeon, in the mix for potential products down the road without being forced to also publish the entire campaign setting. As a publisher myself I can surely understand the appeal of that approach, but as a Greyhawk fan I'm disappointed there's not an official option for leaving the castle where it is. There is in my campaign, obviously. :)
In a sense, this is what they did with Castle Ravenloft in the first adventure in this series. Except in that case they made the change right from the start, choosing to update it as a "stand-alone" adventure rather than as part of the Ravenloft campaign setting. I'm not even sure the setting is mentioned at all in that book, so the approach they gave us ("set it in the world of Greyhawk") was obviously superior.
I'm still reading through the early chapters, and I've found very few changes, and nothing substantive. So far it reads well, in my biased opinion, and I'm quite pleased with the book.
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(Think I'm kidding? The last few issues have at least one example of fiendish eye candy in the Savage Tide adventures)
