Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e
4e Greyhawk (coming earliest 2010, latest 2012) will restart the setting in circa 576CY.
There will be no timeline advance. Rather, there will be a timeline retrograde.
In the restart, the Flanaess will be reimagined. Everything that has “happened” in published products will “never have happened” unless it is specifically reincorporated in the restarted setting.
The Greyhawk Wars will never have occurred. There will never have been demon armies rampaging all over. However, Iuz will be on the march and the “bad guy of the North.”
The Scarlet Brotherhood will never have been “outed” by going for an empire. It will be a “general” bad guy found everywhere - sneaky, silent, unseen.
The Great Kingdom will be caught in a quasi-civil war with lots of politics, magic and religion. No undead animus rulers. No United Kingdom of Ahlissa. No Great Kingdom of the North. Medegia is not a wasteland. The Iron League and Nyrond stand opposed. Its “old school” 83Greyhawk in this area with the volume turned up to 11.
The Sheldomar Valley (Keoland and smaller states) will be “monster central” as monsters (giants, dragons, drow etc.) attack civilization relentlessly. Think Points of Light dialed all the way up.
The City of Greyhawk will be the “center of it all” where things start or come together. Everything in D&D will fit somewhere in the central region of the Flanaess around Greyhawk to include the Wild Coast (Turrosh-Mak and the Empire of the Pomarj will never have happened). The Circle of Eight will function as a premade “mission control.”
Celene will be moved into the Feywild with the addition of Eladrins. Celene will be sort of like a “fortress” from which fey forces sally forth to fight evil.
The Bandit Kingdoms and the Rift Canyon will be “dungeon-land” where all things dungeony can be readily found. Lots of dragons too. Speaking of which.
Dragonborn will be incorporated. They will be from “off the map” to the south in the Amedio/Hepmonaland.
The Tieflings will be incorporated. They will not be monolithic, as in a nation. Rather, they will have origins in the Horned Society, the Sea of Dust, the Lands of Iuz, the Land of Black Ice etc. Essentially, where there are evil planar influences, there will be Tieflings. More on this below.
The idea is to compartmentalize Greyhawk into the ultimate “classic play” menu of a setting with “zones”:
What to kill monsters? Play in the Sheldomar.
Want heroics and politics with evil wizards and evil high priests oppressing people who must be stopped? Play in the Great Kingdom, Nyrond or the Iron League.
Want to oppose the One Big Evil Guy? Play in the north against Iuz.
Want to go exploring ancient ruins and dugeons, see the BK and the Rift Canyon.
Want everything in one spot? One organizing principle? Play in the City of Greyhawk/Central Flanaess - adventure-in-can-land.
This split will essentially “define” Greyhawk as the Flanaess. Other areas will be marginalized (the Baklunish West as “genie-land” the exception). There will also be some geographical changes to Oerth (but I have no sense of the extent or details at this moment).
The cosmology of Greyhawk will not be the Great Wheel. Given the premise of the restart, Greyhawk’s cosmology will be 4e standard and will have “always been that way.”
The new cosmology will also be the restarted Greyhawk’s “McGuffin” or new animating force. The restart described above is intended to “keep Greyhawk as Greyhawk.” On top of that will be “the hook” that can neatly summarize the setting - why do you play here?
Tharizdun will be name to conjure with - The Fight Against the Dark God! But in the process, Tharizdun will function almost as a convenient means to introduce numerous other planar elements, in the sense that PCs must traverse the planes and deal with planar incursions into Greyhawk as a necessary part of - The Fight Against the Dark God! Its almost Greyhawk meets Planescape. Sort of. Maybe better to say Planescape (but not 2e Planescape in any pure sense, rather The PLANES) within a Greyhawk context or frame. The idea is that the planar aspect will not be so pronounced (more subtle) as to overpower the Greyhawk elements; the Greyhawk elements are to remain the focus but with a very strong planar theme. However, individual designs are unpredictable, naturally.
So saying, the above is only what I have been able to suss out post-Con Season (and I’m not infallable by any means) and is waaaaay in advance of the range of release dates. Stuff could change. However, I feel comfortable posting the foregoing and saying at this time “Remember, you heard it here first.”
I’m not altogether sanguine about this 4eHawk, largely because it trashes the idea of established “canon,” intentionally just as the 100 year timeline advance did in the Realms. I get the “logic” but as a long time fan I can only think of this as “OtherHawk.” Still, I will admit I see some cool possibilities here. I just wish I knew about potential geographical changes to make the map of the Flanaess appear “cooler” and immediately “new.”
And if you want to say I’m off my rocker. That I’m speculating or delusional. That I don’t know jack. Or worse. (Well, maybe not worse) Go ahead. Please just remember all that when we are discussing “OtherHawk” in a few years and recall, “You heard it here first.” Who knows? It could be cool. Possibly. _________________ GVD
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e
GVDammerung wrote:
4e Greyhawk (coming earliest 2010, latest 2012) will restart the setting in circa 576CY.
I’m not altogether sanguine about this 4eHawk, largely because it trashes the idea of established “canon,” intentionally just as the 100 year timeline advance did in the Realms. I get the “logic” but as a long time fan I can only think of this as “OtherHawk.” Still, I will admit I see some cool possibilities here. I just wish I knew about potential geographical changes to make the map of the Flanaess appear “cooler” and immediately “new.”
And if you want to say I’m off my rocker. That I’m speculating or delusional. That I don’t know jack. Or worse. (Well, maybe not worse) Go ahead. Please just remember all that when we are discussing “OtherHawk” in a few years and recall, “You heard it here first.” Who knows? It could be cool. Possibly.
Please, please, PLEASE tell me gnomes and halflings, as well as bards and all the other traditional D&D classes are still part of the Flanaess, and that dragonborn and eladrin are not!
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Greyhawk & Star Wars = 1979-2008 RIP
Hi all -
I first saw Star Wars in 1979. In 1979 I first played D&D and fell in love with the Flanaess. But with the release of The Clone Wars I've begun to realize that Star Wars has died for me as a fan. Greyhawk has been dying as well. With the loss of D&D as a property that supports Greyhawk, and with the loss of D&D itself for a more organic and realized game in Pathfinder, I feel that Greyhawk is also dying. For me, that is.
So maybe Greyhawk isn't yet dead, but it will be even more fragmented than ever before if what GVD states comes to pass. _________________ Theocrat Issak
Joined: Dec 30, 2002 Posts: 119 Location: 1313 StoneCastle Way, Free City of Dyvers, W0G 13F
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject:
Well, as long as this site remains true to the Greyhawk as I have grown with and accept , then Greyhawk shall continue to survive.
However, should this site turn its material to this "proposed" 4th Ed devastation, then it will be the end of it for me, for I wish to remember GH as it has developed up to now...
Joined: Jun 13, 2008 Posts: 156 Location: Houston Texas
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject:
Are you F'ing kidding me?
That was my intial reaction.
My second reaction was a little more along the lines of, oh cool, this may mean that they are going to doing a streamlined series of canon events ala Dragonlance as opposed to the haphazard way its' been handled in the past. So I may be able to actually go through all of those things I missed growing up as opposed to running the retrograde 10-20 years after the fact like I have been.
Also, it may give me the opportunity to run this mirrorland game I've dreamed about doing for years. You know those Star Trek episodes where the evil twin from the alternate dimension were everythng is the exact opposite comes through. Kinda like Rolibilars alter ego Rolyball or Balero, or Valero what ever the **** his name is in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk is called.
So, my reaction is a bit mixed. On one hand I am hoping that they make a re-releaase of the earlier Against the Giants series, but on the otherhand those were classics and I am afraind they'll just muck it up like they did with Expedition to the DemonWebPits
Interesting to say the least -- not sure I like the idea of retrograding Greyhawk, though. I could certainly see other, more natural ways to bring Greyhawk to 4E.
I'd alos like to at least have a hint of the source or sources of this info, at least some idea that there is a kernal of truth in there somewhere, not just fanciful imaginaries.
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e
GVDammerung wrote:
4Who knows? It could be cool. Possibly.
Maybe this is an opportunity for input, rather than hair pulling?
Am thinking this Site represents a vocal, if not statistical, majority of the current Greyhawk fan base, and maybe a constructive submission to WotC might hit a (hip-pocket) nerve?
Clearly, they're not going to republish the LGG with 4E stats in it, and are looking for a new audience for GH - but maybe we can help curb some of the more sweeping changes that we think might make GH 4E so unusable to us stalwarts of the milieu?
Perhaps if those Sages with closer connections to the folks at WotC can find an avenue for input, and we generate enough activity on this and other fan sites, we could keep it cool, rather hoping they see the light...
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 830 Location: Wichita, KS, USA
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e
GVDammerung wrote:
So saying, the above is only what I have been able to suss out post-Con Season (and I’m not infallable by any means) and is waaaaay in advance of the range of release dates. Stuff could change. However, I feel comfortable posting the foregoing and saying at this time “Remember, you heard it here first.”
So GVD, is this pure speculation on your part or are parts of what you stated from seminars @ GenCon, or from insider sources, etc., etc.? Just curious! :D _________________ Allan.
---
Allan Grohe
grodog@gmail.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Olympia, WA
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject:
So except for Dragonborn, an Eladrin Celene and the cosmology change, pretty much every GH campaign I've ever run. I think I'll live. _________________ <strong>
</strong>
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1844 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject:
BusterBudd wrote:
Well, as long as this site remains true to the Greyhawk as I have grown with and accept , then Greyhawk shall continue to survive.
However, should this site turn its material to this "proposed" 4th Ed devastation, then it will be the end of it for me, for I wish to remember GH as it has developed up to now...
AG
Nah, we are going “4e. All the time. All your previous editions are belong to us!”, and we will be deleting ALL of the other non-4e forums and their content, as well as every non-4e article. So, only about 99% of the site’s content will be gone. It’s gonna rock!
Yeah, right! There may be some restructuring of the site in the near future, but that has nothing to do with 4e. These plans have been under discussion for a long, long time(nothing too drastic mind you). Canonfire! will remain pretty much the same. There will simply, and inevitably, be more 4e content posted to the site as people write it. The only way it will drown out other non-4e material is if those people with an interest in non-4e material don’t step up to the plate and write something for the non-4e stuff themselves. Yes, everyone has to put up or shut up basically(yes, I’m looking at you “Greyhawk- Other Game Systems” people who have yet to "ROCK!" their newly established forum).
vestcoat wrote:
Hmmm...can someone move this thread to the GH 4e board so I don't have to look at it?
BusterBudd wrote:
I'll second that request!
AG
I’ll leave the thread here for now as this is general information worthy of discussion by all parties. I may move it along to the 4e forum after a suitable period of discussion. People really ought to look at this info and see what possible *good* things it might hold with regards to the possible development of the World of Greyhawk. Ideas can always be plundered piecemeal, regardless of what era you play in or rules system you use.
As to the original post, that actually all sounds like a very good way of fitting 4e into Greyhawk. I much prefer this to the "We just meteor swarmed your campaign world. Roll a saviing thow. D'oh! You failed! Now roll your item saving throws!(hehehe!) D'oh! All your items are GONE!!!" method used to re-set the Forgotten Realms. If you want to make use of the material from later events like FtA and so on, just apply the results of those later events to the revamped 4e Greyhawk(if you want to). Those later events are not being wiped out of existence- they just haven’t happened yet(and may or may not ever happen depending on how you as a DM want to run things). The new material not being specifically dependent on what has come before is not a bad idea at all. I just hope that this new start doesn’t just re-hash every single thing for yet another time, but also makes a point of expanding upon areas of the Flanaess(and beyond) that have received little or no attention whatsoever(and anybody could use that). You know, actual *new* material? Sounds crazy I know…
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Meet the New Hawk - WoG to Restart/Reimagine in 4e
Triple20 wrote:
Maybe this is an opportunity for input, rather than hair pulling?
I deleted my first attempt at this post (top of thread) a day ago because when I read it over I felt like I was coming across way too negative. I did not want to rant.
Yes. You are correct. This is an opportunity for input but I'm torn. I'm not sure which I'd prefer - try to make the best of things or hope for corporate inertia, 4e overheating and GH's rep to lead to nothing. Personally, I'm not one for GH seeing print just to see it in print - IMO, GH has to maintain its sense of self to be worth seeing print. Of course, different people will define this differently.
The real "opportunity," if you want to call it that, for input lies in the present situation whereby the "usual" GH suspects will not be involved in the 4e GH design. They have taken other "paths," so to speak. There will be new blood.
grodog wrote:
So GVD, is this pure speculation on your part or are parts of what you stated from seminars @ GenCon, or from insider sources, etc., etc.? Just curious! :D
I did not attend Gencon. However, I have friends who did. So, up front, my "information" is second hand. That said, the information is derived from seminars and conversations had with individuals who ostensibly are in positions to know or hear things and my own reading of the resulting tea leaves. Like a weather forecast, there is an inevitable "bust" factor. If you asked me to put a percentage on my level of confidence I'd say:
70% chance there is a GH 4e as of today; and
75% chance it will look pretty much as described.
I feel very comfortable with my "forecast." In one forum or another, I called the year of 4e's launch. I called the Realms changes. I called the terms of the GSL Mk I. I called Paizo sticking with 3.5 (actually I publically advocated for it back last September on CF and the Paizo boards).
That said, after calming myself down, I find I am not really certain what to think. I'm not sure I want to be right or wrong. I like parts of what is described, particularly the reset of the Great Kingdom and the Scarlet Brotherhood, both of which I felt were handled poorly circa FtA. Other parts are in my mind open to much more question. I'll leave it that I remain to be convinced on other scores.
More info should be forthcoming at the DDX and next Con Season. Like a hog looking for truffles, I will be keeping my nose to the ground.
I am definitely going to the Cons next year. Triple20 spoke of influence - putting on some type of GH seminar might be just what the doctor ordered. Word to the wise. It could also be fun. Rattle those bushes and see what comes out. _________________ GVD
To be honest, I don't like this much. Some setting development is nice and going all the way back to original box is pretty much a middle finger to large set of the fanbase.
Joined: Feb 04, 2003 Posts: 19 Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:49 am Post subject:
We were talking about this in Greychat Thursday night. I think it's the best way to handle a new edition, I don't like shoe-horning new races/classes and whatnot into the setting in a cataclysmic manner. A Greyhawk reboot would make the changes fluid with the setting, we'd get all the new material added into Greyhawk's history. I think the changes will make more sense in the context of the setting this way.
Well, a reboot back to 576 CY is one of the least offensive possibilities. I never liked how integrated 3e LG had become with reclusive wood elves living in human cities and halflings spread in great numbers all over the place.
I was quite happy with a few renowned wizard schools scattered across the Flanaess in 1e and with the Baklunish West and Scarlet Brotherhood as the main enclaves of martial arts monks. I loathed turning the Silent Ones of Keoland into sorcerers in particular.
I expect I will approve and disapprove of the 4e changes in equal measure. One good thing is that the npcs will all be far more individual now. I'm looking forward to seeing the Elminster write up as it may foreshadow 4e versions of the Circle of Eight and old Mordy.
I'm still ambivalent about rituals in 4e but when creating npcs, I can give them whatever rituals they need flavourwise so the druids will still be contacting elemental wierds and the high priest at the Temple of Wee Jas will still be raising the dead.
Joined: Apr 13, 2006 Posts: 322 Location: Frinton on Sea England
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:21 am Post subject:
WARNING; NEGATIVITY AHEAD.
First of all I am genuinely (I really mean it) pleased that those who have decided to go ahead with 4e will receive some GH support. And a special good luck to those who try to break into having some say over its development.
This news about 4e GH is entirely predictable. Wotc have waited, listened to a lot of the negative things expressed by long time gamers and now decided to go for the option that the majority of GH players would like; A return to the old feel of the campaign but in a way that will allow incorporation of the 4e concepts. Sound business sense. Good corporate planning. From the company that answered a question nobody was asking; Can we have an entirely new, non-backwards compatible game please 'cause I've got a whole heap of disposable income that's just burning a hole in my pocket?
That's it. I'll not offer any more negative opinions. I promise.
Cebrion; I realise you've created a fun new sport by shooting at those that wanted an Alternate Game Systems Forum, but you gave them their wish, so now give them time. They've only just got going, after all. And please, spare us the words "Rock" and "Cool".
Sounds like a Wotc development meeting.
Joined: Jun 13, 2008 Posts: 156 Location: Houston Texas
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:52 am Post subject:
You know, I remember ten years or so ago when FtA was released. Man were people pissed. It was understandable too. There were a lot of really strange things WoTC or TSR or who ever the hell was at the helm when FtA did to the world.
We want the old feel. They've already soured their relations with their largest fan base by their mishandling of the Realms. They didn't listen to what the players wanted, they acted unilaterally and may end up losing market share because of it. Maybe not a lot, the majority of players will get over it, however there will be a lot of people that go, "**** this, I'm going to go play Vampire (or Rifts or Shadowrun, what ever). Maybe I'll get the 4th ed. stuff off of eBay in a few years when it is cheap."
Thats what I did with 3.x. It took me years to get back into D&D because I was so ticked off about the way the switch over from 2nd to 3rd was handled. Did I come back to the game? Yes, but WoTC didn't make a dime off of me in the process. They don't care if we play the game, they care if we buy the books. Now that they have begun to alienate their biggest fan base they probably want to avoid alienating their most stable one as well. Hence, taking the story arch back to the beginning.
Can they screw it up? Of course, but not so seriously as they screwed up the Realms. WotC can't go about pissing off their customers. Gamers have shown in the past that they have absolutely no problem picking up and going over to someone else's product. After the mishandling of the FR material, they are not leaving a lot of wiggle room for mistakes in GH.
And its about god damned time someone did something with something on Oerik other then the Flaness.
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1844 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject:
Ragr wrote:
Cebrion; I realise you've created a fun new sport by shooting at those that wanted an Alternate Game Systems Forum, but you gave them their wish, so now give them time. They've only just got going, after all. And please, spare us the words "Rock" and "Cool".
Sounds like a Wotc development meeting.
Nearly fell off my chair I was laughing so hard. I really am surprised somebody got the veiled reference. I thought that saying "This newer version of Canonfire! will be soooo much better and much more fun than any previous version of Canonfire! ever was! It's gonna ROCK!" would be a bit much though.
And yes, I'm putting a bit of a bullseye on that particular forum, but that is just me and nobody else should. More effort was put into complaining about it not being there than has been put into the forum since it has actually been there(and it has been there for over 2 months). And don't tell me there aren't plenty of topics to discuss regarding how other game sytem content can be fit into Greyhawk, particulary all of the stuff written under the C&C rules. Yes, I know, Yggsbugh will be an unimaginably hard fit for Greyhawk, but somebody could at least try. However, all of that material gets more disucssion on other forums. After two months, one would think that the loudest proponents of having this forum could post something with a bit more meat to it than "I like C&C. Do you?" "I do too!" "Me too!" "Yay C&C!". There are 16 posts there, 4 of which are mine, so that leaves 12 posts in over 60 days on a new forum that was being clamoured for. I'm somewhat disappointed in the level of activity to say the least. After all, it doesn't take lengthy articles to make a forum, just discussion of relevant topics. Somebody needs to work on posting some. Anybody can PM me regarding this topic if they want to, but let's drop it for now and have the discussion go back to the point of this thread.
So, just to alleviate anybody's fears- there will be no massive edition-specific changes made to the website.
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Olympia, WA
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject:
Cebrion wrote:
Nah, we are going “4e. All the time. All your previous editions are belong to us!”, and we will be deleting ALL of the other non-4e forums and their content, as well as every non-4e article. So, only about 99% of the site’s content will be gone. It’s gonna rock!
Or you could just lump all the non-4e forums into one forum. I'm sure nobody else has ever tried anything similar and it would work perfectly. _________________ <strong>
</strong>
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Those sons of a fatherless curr...
, then Greyhawk shall continue to survive.
Yeah, right! There may be some restructuring of the site in the near future, but that has nothing to do with 4e. These plans have been under discussion for a long, long time(nothing too drastic mind you). Canonfire! will remain pretty much the same. There will simply, and inevitably, be more 4e content posted to the site as people write it. The only way it will drown out other non-4e material is if those people with an interest in non-4e material don’t step up to the plate and write something for the non-4e stuff themselves. Yes, everyone has to put up or shut up basically(yes, I’m looking at you “Greyhawk- Other Game Systems” people who have yet to "ROCK!" their newly established forum).
