[smillan_31]

In the "migration map" on page 6 of the 80' Gazetteer it shows the Oeridians "originating" just north of Lake Udrukankar in the Dry Steppes, but in Vecna Lives Tovag Baragu on the shores of Lake Udrukankar was the capital of the Baklunish Empire.

So what gives? Should we just assume that the "starting locations" are somewhat after the Twin Cataclysms when the Baklunish had been pushed north out of their heartlands, and the maybe the Oeridians were in the process of burning the joint down. If that's the case where had the Oeridians been before since they had been migrating east for quite a while before the Cataclysms?

I can come up with my own explanations, but is there anything canon explaining this, or does anyone have a good explanation they came up with?

[rasgon]

Canon (The Adventure Begins) says the Oeridians are from Ull, but I think later canon - The Living Greyhawk Journal #3 entry for Johydee - says they came from further west before that, originating beyond the Baklunish lands. The Book of Artifacts said that Johydee was from a region called the Seven Kingdoms, which I assume is the Oeridian homeland.

The continent is called Oerik, which implies (though it doesn't necessitate, since other peoples have different names) that the Oeridians are widespread there. If you don't want to worry about the possible existence of East Asian-style cultures, Western Oerik might be entirely Oeridian, while the Flanaess was entirely Flan before the Migrations - and the Baklunish and Suel were stuck in between.

The (extremely non-canonical) Oerth Journal #1 timeline has the Oeridians as slaves of the Suel who were freed by St. Cuthbert and then migrated across the Sulhauts into the Baklunish lands and from there into the Flanaess.

Scottenkainen claims that the Oeridians come from Khemit, or Erypt, far to the south and west.

It's conceivable that the Oeridians ruled the Baklunish lands from the beginning, and the Baklunish invaded those lands and subjugated them after their great Hegira six thousand years ago - but that extreme length of time might be a bit much.

[grodog]

I don't have my books, but IIRC the rumors of a large inland sea, far to the west (from the Nyr Dyv entry) mention that the Oeridians originated there. Can someone dig up a quotation?
_________________
Allan.
---
Allan Grohe
grodog@gmail.com
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html

[mortellan]

[grodog]

I thought there was a second quotation that linked the Oeridians' migration to that far western homeland, but perhaps that's only the one quotation, and that I added the link between the Oeridians and the large inland sea??
_________________
Allan.
---
Allan Grohe
grodog@gmail.com
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html

[Woesinger]

I might be mistaken, but I think Gary Holian first promulgated the Far West origin of the Oerids.

Personally, I favour a far west origin for the Oerids - the Oerids who inhabited Ull were, IMO, an offshoot of the main Oerid population, which may have once roamed the steppes that stretch all the way from the Sufang Mountains (the huge mountain chain to the west of the Celestial Empire on the Dragon Annual 1 map) to the Crystalmists. In my head, I see the the Sufang rising at the expense of the Oerids, scattering them hither and anon.

However, the presence of the High and Low Khanates north of Sufang (and the use of these titles by the Brazen Horde - who were identified as Bakluni) presents one of a number of possibilities:

1: The lands north of Sufang are the original Bakluni homeland and they migrated east into the original Oerid homelands, compressing them steadily eastwards until they were corralled into Ull.

2: The lands north of Sufang were the original Oeridian homeland and they were scattered/migrated west into the Bakluni lands under the pressure of Sufang expansion. The Khanates might be the result of Baklunish invasions in the opposite direction. (This explanation somehow rings false for me).

3: Both Oerids and Bakluni originated north of the Sufang and were pushed east in successive waves - the Oerids first and then the Bakluni.

This last idea raises the possibility that the Bakluni and then Oerids might possibly share a common ancestor culture in the distant west (in the same way that Arabs and Jews are both Semitic peoples). Under pressure from the Sufhang, the Oeridians split off, moving east over the mountains (though some might still persist in the far west). The Bakluni followed sometime later (leaving behind a splinter population, which forms the Khanates, from which the Brazen Horde swept east as far as the Flanaess about 200-300 CY)) - perhaps overrunning the Oerid tribes and driving them eastwards as they settled and founded their empire.

Perhaps the Hegira of which the Bakluni speak is a flight from their original homelands in the west?

What if the gods that Johydee freed the Oeridians from referred to the Bakuni yoke. The OR might begin with the year that the Oerids broke free of the Bakluni yoke, forming their own confederation of tribes in Ull?

This would also serve to explain the Common tongue's fusion of Old Oeridian and Ancient Bakluni as a bridge language between sister tongues.


P.

[rasgon]

There's also the possibility that the nomads north of Suhfang aren't Baklunish at all, but more of a Suhfang-style people who interbred with the Baklunish on their way to become the Tiger and Wolf barbarians (who today have mixed Suhfang, Bakluni, and Flan blood). There's even a possibility that the people of Suhfang are Baklunish.

But Woesinger's ideas make a lot of sense.

[mortellan]

I'm enjoying this thread. Good ideas presented. In my Ull meanderings at CF I have sometimes hinted at ancient Oeridian origins but always intentionally left it open for great possibilities like found here.

Successive waves of migrations is totally compatible with real historical nation and language building. The Brazen Horde is still slightly misunderstood to me. From what I gather they were incited to immigrate by Zeif into the lands south of Zeif as a buffer zone against raiding Paynims. The Horde themselves were originally just western Paynim cousins living south of Komal (West bank Gulf of Ghayar) making them really Western Dry Steppe nomads if anything. They must've been quite eager to relocate due to Komal (who must be quite powerful having scared off the Brazen Horde and defeated Zeif's navy in the Battle Beneath the Waves) and the fact of living in the fringe Dry Steppes. The Plains of the Paynims, Ull and Ket obviously are more fertile lands, so not being able to move north into Komal nor back west over mountains into Suhfang they migrated east as had been done twice before them in the Oerids and the Ancient Baklunish Empire. The Bakluns that were displaced by the immigrant Horde ended up Tiger/Wolf nomads mixing mainly with Oerids in flight which as Woesinger speculates might not have been the first time and leads to the ease of their language's mixture. The Horde therefore is another in a long line of tribes displaced by the larger Suhfang I'd wager.

Looking at the Dragon Annual map its a stretch to connect the High/Low Khanates with the Baklunish given that unlike the Flanaess migrations they would have to traverse TWO huge mountain ranges to migrate. At any rate if one uses *shudder* Orcreich which is stuck firmly between the Khanates and the old lands of the Brazen Horde/ Komal then it could be surmised that orcs were also thrust northward by the Celestial Imperium resulting in a split of the long free ranging Khanates into two, the possibly Suhfang related Khanates and the purer Baklunish blooded Paynims.

[Prochytes]

[Woesinger]

Yeah - the point about the two mountain ranges is a good one - I forgot about how big that second one is.

There's a few work arounds:

1: The Bakluni at one point or other occupied the lands that are now part of Sufang south of that second western range. The expansion of the Sufang sundered their lands and peoples, cutting the Khanates off and sending the ancestors of the Bakluni Padishahs fleeing over the mountains to the west and into the Oerid lands over 6 thousand years ago?

2: The Sufang actually are Bakluni (as Rasgon mentioned) or more startling - Oeridians!

3: An offshoot of the Bakluni invaded the Sufang lands, driving south of the second western range, and either migrated or were driven back north into the lands now marked as the Khanates.

4: That second range isn't that high or has many passes allowing passage of plains folk.

Or some combination of the above.

[rasgon]

[rasgon]

Perhaps the various peoples looked, before the migrations, something like this:



with the Suhfang expanding into the former Oeridian territories (and intermixing with remaining Oerid peoples).

[mortellan]

Excellent visual aides rasgon, this discussion is opening my eyes to alot. One funny observation is how 'small' the Suel Empire seems in comparison. They are boxed in quite nicely pre-all migrations. The only other unlabelled area on rasgon's map would be Zindia, yet another unique racial/cultural group i'm sure.

The path of the Oeridians makes sense using these maps' placement too. At the height of the Baklunish Empire it was adjacent to the Suel Empire so the only recourse for migrating Oerids would've been northeast and eventually corralled into Ull. I'm not sure of the extent of the Dramidj coast's ancient Baklunish settlements at the time but given this map ancient Oerids could've sailed over the Dramidj and came into Ull from above as well (quicker) as overland, then were shooed and segregated out of the way by Baklunish who were too busy with the Suloise. In fact using the proposed western oerik humanoid drive north into present day Orcreich, Oerids who may have dwelled there would logically -have to- flee overseas to escape. Any other way gives them too many alternate routes to migrate instead of into one clustered region like Ull. Whats more, to go from 'Seven Kingdoms' across a swathe of land equal in size to both the Baklunish and Suel empires and then end up crammed into Ull means not many Oerids made it anyways or were absorbed elsewhere.

[rasgon]

I don't know that the pre-cataclysm Oeridian population was ever very large - they were scattered bands of nomadic horsemen, and their lifestyle and the barren steppeland of their home couldn't support a very dense population. They wandered over a vast area, but that area probably had other peoples, human and nonhuman, beside the Oerids, and the Oerids themselves might have gone weeks or months without seeing another Oeridian-speaking tribe. Perhaps it was their time in bondage to the "servants of the evil deities" that finally cemented them together as one people and inspired them, as orcs and goblin-folk became distressingly more common, to make the journey to a new homeland together.

Sea travel is possible, assuming Procan was smiling favorably at them, but I imagine a zigzag path through the northern Baklunish Mountains, down the coast of the Drawmij, up the coast again and finally settling in Ull, southeastern Zief, and Ket - but not for long, as they had a manifest destiny to fulfill.

[mortellan]

Ah yes I misread, the Oeridians were on the edge of the Seven Kingdoms not scattered into Seven Kingdoms, which are likely Suhfang as you said. I got confused when the LGJ said they were scattered yet went on to mention the 'most prominent Oerid nation'. I tend to associate the word nation with settled peoples, although thats probably not necessary given North American native history.

And the zig-zag migration is most probable as well, although the water exit just jumped out at me from the maps posted here. Looking at the Dramidj's island chains as detailed in the LGG, I guess we can eliminate that theory one by one since the isles would be the first stops in an oversea migration:

Ataphads (Bf): "colonized over a millenium ago by criminal and depraved elements of the Baklunish Empire, though some families trace their lineage back to the wicked Ur-Flan."

Janasibs (B): "provides shelter for outlaws and pirates from the Baklunish lands."

Qayah Bureis (Bfo?): "It has been colonized by all the seafaring nations of the region over the years, but its culture is predominantly Baklunish."

The last chain is the only chance for Oeridian sea migration. All the seafaring nations in the area should be already be Baklunish, so to state its culture is predominantly Baklunish implies something else, either more Ur-Flan like in the Ataphads (apparently they had Dramidj aspirations) or an Oerid splinter that took to the central isles and got absorbed by the Baklunish post-cataclysm along with the Ataphad and Janasib colonization.

[Woesinger]

Great stuff, guys!

There are a few factors against an seaborne migration:

1: The Aerdi (and by association the other Oeridians) are mentioned in canon as being indifferent sailors.

2: This is kind of reflected in Procan's aspect as a tempestuous angry god ready to strike down those who venture into his realm unless he is properly propriated (at least that how I always saw him).

3: The Oerids of old are always characterised as nomads and horselords - which doesn't exactly fit with a seafaring escape route.

I'd favour a good old landward flight/migration over the moutnain passes

OK - so to consolidate:

We know that the Oeridian homeland was probably somewhere around the Orc lands in central Oerik (or at least the Oerids who ended up in the Flanaess considered this their homeland; there's nothing to say that the Oerids that ended up in Ull were all of the Oerids that once wandered the west, though given the involvement of Johydee, its likey that they comprised what was described as the most prominant Oerid nation [the Aerdi?]).

We also know that they are said to have been widespread in Western Oerik (this said from the perspective of the Flanaess).

Johydee is said to have lived on the frontiers of the Seven Kingdoms. This could be Sufang, though it's not clear if Johydee lived at the edge of one of seven Oeridian Kingdoms (presumably in this case the most prominent), or whether her Oerid people lived on the uncivilised side of the frontiers of a non-Oerid Seven Kingdoms.

If we take the Chinese parallel for Sufang, China was divided into a varying number of kingdoms before it was united by the first emperor. Perhaps Sufang followed a similar route (My pet theory is that the Seven Kingdoms were united by a psionic human emperor, whose progeny still rule a godless empire supported by a class of psionic mandarins).

OK - so let's assume that the Oerids dwelled in the current orclands as nomads - they could therefore have spread throughout the lands of the west, roaming the steppelands north of what is now Sufang and perhaps crossing the various mountain chains - into the Bakluni lands in the east and over the mighty Celestial Mountains in the west.

At some point or other, some or all of them were displaced east. This could have happened a number of ways.

1: They were driven east by the expansion of the Seven Kingdoms of the Sufang and/or the rise of the orcs in that area.

2: A population of them wandered east, finding employ with the Bakluni Padishahs as mercs. They were then granted the lands of Ull to settle (like the way the Romans settled the Goths south of the Danube).

3: A population of the were taken as a captive population (like the deportation of the Jews to Mesopotamia by the Babylonians) by the invading Bakluni. They were later freed and granted the lands of Ull.

However, given that there's no evidence of the Oerids using titles like Khan, we still have to explain why there's a pair of Khanates west of the Oerid homeland. There's two possibilities:

1: The Bakluni spread east, invading the Oerids and rolling on to the Khanates, only to lose the intervening lands to orcs (perhaps driven north out of Sufang?).

2: The Khanates are in fact the ancient Bakluni homeland, from whence they spread (or were driven) east (perhaps by the Sufang), driving the nomadic Oerids (or some of them) before them, until the Oerids were bottled up into Ull. If the Bakluni migration is the same as the Hegira, that would date this migration to around the start of the BH system or -2659 CY or over 3,000 years before present.

Of all these theories, I kind of favour the last. It seems to make most sense to me.

So - from the top.

The Bakluni originated in the Khanates, the Oerids in the orc lands, while to the south of them the Sufang arose, became civilised and founded Seven Kingdoms. The Oerids wandered over Central and Western Oerik, probbaly as horse based nomads.

At some point before the Seven Kingdoms were united by the First Sufang Emperor - Johydee freed the ancestors of the eastern Oerids from the yoke of evil gods.

The Bakluni at some point civilised to the point where they had a Padishah (or a kind of king of kings). As the Bakluni expanded, they may have forced the Oerids east. It's possible that, as the Bakluni and Sufang organised, they drove orcs and their kin out of their lands and into the lands of the Oerid nomads, to the point where the Oerids were pushed out. Some may have headed west into the Bakluni and Sufang lands, others into the east over the mountains.

War broke out between the Bakluni and the Sufang (who might have been united at this point), and the Sufang won, forcing the Bakluni padishah to flee the homeland in -2659 CY (the Hegira), heading east where his armies overran the Oerids. The Bakluni reformed their empire in the east, while corralling the eastern Oerids into the land of Ull.


Thoughts?

P.

[rasgon]

[rasgon]

[rasgon]

[mortellan]

[Woesinger]

[Woesinger]

[Thanael]

I'm not entirely through with reading this thread, but let me post a question.

Could this earlier cataclysm have been the Demon War from the Chainmail setting? (which is set in Western Oerik after all) Note that I don't know anything about Chainmail except from what's inside the Chainmail Set 2 Blood & Darkness Booklet. That one has a lot of interesting info though about Stratis, Western Oerik and an ancient Gith empire. I transcribed the interesting parts here. Here's also a map of the Chainmail setting that I got from somewhere on the net. Compare it to the Dragon annual map. Apparently the chainmail setting is also called the "Sundered Empire" which could mean the old Oerik or the Seven Kingdoms or neither of both...

Is there more info about this setting in any of the other Chainmail products? Is it possible to integrate the setting with current Greyhawk?

[Woesinger]

Wow - cool! I've never actually seen this map before.

I am happy to see my guesses about the geography of western Oerik were largely correct though (big desert in the south, tropical forest along the southern coasts of Sufang).

P.

[Crag]

Nice Map, I just wish some map-maker out there would take on the challenge of producing a complete Oerik map. (hint)

Back to the Oeridians, we must remember though, that their migration wasn't under a single leader even in the times of Johydee, it seemed a fairly chaotic affair with tribes and groups splitting off the main groups to explore or settle lands as seemed to interest them.