Joined: Nov 28, 2006 Posts: 252 Location: Barony of Trellwood, The Great Kingdom
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject:
GVDammerung wrote:
Ugh. 4e Greyhawk is an oxymoron, that cannot but be moronic, given 4e's "in name only" claim to the D&D mantle. 4e GH will spin EGG in his grave.
Ok guys, lets end the threadjack. We all know that WotC controls the IP to Greyhawk so that is out of our hands. Besides I have seen the future and 4e is the least of your worries, direct from pre-launch in 2015, I present to you...
The topic on this thread is what are the 5 bullet points you can give to a new player that best distinguishes Greyhawk from all the other settings. If you want to rant about WotC and 4e Greyhawk, there is the 4e forum for that.
I was reading today that Microsoft will replace Windows Vista with Windows 7 in 2010. With such a short turn around time and mindful that Vista has been much criticized, I think it safe to say that Vista has not succeeded perhaps as well as Microsoft had hoped.
Replace Vista with 4e and Windows 7 with 5e.
Point is I think Greyhawk may be able to skip 4e entirely because 4e won't be around for very long. _________________ GVD
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1839 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject:
There are not 5 bullet points, only two:
*Background
*Characters
Of course, to really make either of those mean anything with respect to Greyhawk, you need to fully expand/explain them.
The answer to the question "What makes Greyhawk unique?" is literally "The characters and background of Greyhawk make it unique."
Every campaign does have minor unique features, but you seem to want 5 examples that are pervasive and affectively represent Greyhawk in a definitive way. The only problem is that there aren't any. Even Tharizdun, while relatively unique, has no pervading influence on Greyhawk. He's nothing more than a boogeyman. You really have to start playing the "whit if" game with regard to Tharizdun("But what if Tharizdun escaped, even in a diminished capacity?") and other things, and that is pointless to begin with. _________________ ---Cebrion
Joined: Jun 28, 2007 Posts: 582 Location: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject:
1. The world of Dungeons and Dragons in which the creator, Gary Gygax provided the necessary world setting information, intentionally leaving the details to the players and DMs to spur imaginations and create a uniqueness between Greyhawk worlds.
2. A world setting that takes place within the equivelant of the dark to middle ages which houses many political bodies as nations and free cities.
3. A world particlarly known for it instantly popular and classical adventures.
4. A world which served as the guidline and bar for all D&D worlds to follow.
5. A world that has such strong continual fan support that its owning companies (TSR and WOTC) cannot deny its popularity for over 3-4 decades (ex. sites like Canonfire and Oerth Journal, constantly returning to the pages of Dragon Magazine, supposedly the 3.0 default world).
6. Most importantly, Greyhawk has Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods in it! _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Joined: Oct 17, 2007 Posts: 30 Location: 2nd pyramid
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject:
GreyHawk is :
1) realistic fantasy. GreyHawk deals with known background to most of us ( ie middle ages - dark & upper ) mixed with "real" magic.
2) background history. How events on local and major scales shaped the world : rises and falls of empires, wars, migrations of peoples, etc...
3) geo-political. GreyHawk is not about legendary NPCs and/or "powerful yet hidden societies with world takeover agendas". GreyHawk is about peoples and alliances/conflicts between nations or regions.
4) individual freedom. PC can be drawn in major events of worldly consequences or they can go unoticed in some remote lost and forgotten dungeon killing monsters and plundering lairs. But since even in major events, it usually is nations that are involved and not major NPCs (so no "canon" conflict). Who participate in the event is not really important. The event in itself is.
5) open possibilites. Most of GreyHawk has not been fully designed. It is not "carved into stone". GreyHawk is mostly sketches ans so far as I know, it what EGG wanted it to be.
and last but not necessarily least but off-limit :
6) GreyHawk was the first setting. And it bears in spite of all its unique flavor and freshness
Long Live GreyHawk _________________ What does not kill us, makes us stronger. Friedrich Nietzsche
Joined: May 27, 2003 Posts: 27 Location: Spindrift Isles, Scotland
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:02 am Post subject:
Cebrion wrote:
There are not 5 bullet points, only two:
*Background
*Characters
I'd have to agree with that summation. All you really have to say to your players is:-
Background ~ "This is where it all began, the original campaign world ~ why wouldn't you want to play here?"
Characters ~ Add in the fact that they can interact with legends like Mordenkainen, Tenser, Robilar, et al, and become heroes or even kings (or anti-heroes and despots, if that's their thing ), and shape the world around them by their very actions...
Then it's an easy sell. If they still don't buy into it, they're in the wrong game.
Joined: Oct 17, 2007 Posts: 30 Location: 2nd pyramid
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:42 am Post subject:
Quote:
Add in the fact that they can interact with legends like Mordenkainen, Tenser, Robilar, et al [...]
Yes they can but it is not necessary, unlike FR setting if playing on an Epic scale. Nonetheless if players want to shape the Oerth as you put it ( either in Good or Evil), they will likely interact with them, even if vicariously.
But since it NOT a necessary element, players can still have fun playing in GreyHawk without legendary figures, why should they be in the wrong game ?
Even FR setting has background, due to setting books and novels but you cannot say it lacks of it ( that's there is too much perhaps ).
Characters : too few or too much ? Again, the FR setting is overcrowded with powerful NPCs but it is certainly not short of them.
The main difference in GreyHawk is that legendary figures work in shadows and do not rule entire lands or kingdoms. They give space for PC to move around.
I agree with Saracemus about giving Five reasons to explain why GH is unique. Two are too restrictive but also too blurry. _________________ What does not kill us, makes us stronger. Friedrich Nietzsche
Bill Slavicsek mentioned those by name as what we'd see after Forgotten Realms and Eberron were out. Greyhawk is a definate, he said they were working on the books for it, and Dark Sun is one that he mentioned "we would see down the line". I don't know if he slipped up or if he wasn't 100% sure, but he sounded pretty confident.
From what we'd heard at I-CON, we knew it was coming... but now we know it's already be in the works, so there's a good chance it'll be next in line and roll out int 2010!
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1839 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject:
Well, I've been a bit harsh on this subject I must say. While there really are only two things that differentiate a campaign, it certainly is possible to choose 5 things that quantify Greyhawk. Those things might not be exactly unique to Greyhawk, but they are just features of it. I think the problem I have is with pointing out five descriptive things about Greyhawk that are specifically unique to it, and it alone(as there really aren't any). Perhaps you noticed my fixation on these points being UNIQUE; maybe not. Well, as that really isn’t possible, and that really doesn’t seem to be the point Saracenus is pursing, I’ll quit being a schmuck and add something here.
So, the main goal then is to choose the right 5 things that stand out the most about Greyhawk. In that vein, here is a list of a few options to discuss:
1. Greyhawk is an Alpha Campaign(yes! It really is! ). Even with its introduction in the original Folio form as a supposedly complete product, it was an unfinished product- the Baklunish didn’t even have a full listing of their gods(among other things)! Not quite half-assed, but not quite full-assed either. We have this admission from THE MAN himself, so I’ll take him at his word. Other campaign worlds do not suffer from this much, if at all, having been engineered fully from the ground up with regards to all of the basic information contained in their main campaign setting books. On the up-side though, Greyhawk’s missing bits within the main area of the campaign- the Flanaess- is ripe for development by all, unlike most other campaigns’ main areas which have been laid out in more detail. Even though many blanks have been filled in over the years(up to and including the LGG), there is still much in just the Flanaess that remains to be covered.
2. Greyhawk has a “sword & sorcery” level of magic, meaning that the sword balances out the magic so to speak. It also means that really powerful magic originates from either ancient civilizations, god-like beings, or a very few, very powerful individuals. People don’t walk around with glowing swords; mages are rare and generally feared(because they can lay waste to a small village in less than a minute single-handedly with but a few gestures), and powerful clerics do not abound to heal the grievously injured, as is evidenced by some of the very wealthy NPCs in GH who have injuries that could be cured by such magic, or the inability to find lost personages or simply raise/resurrect them. Yes, even wealthy and powerful people get hurt and die in Greyhawk. The above average mage cannot level a castle though, and the above average cleric cannot cure a plague that has taken hold of a community. The main point of all this is that, yes, regular people who can’t wield magic are still very important to the everyday goings on in the World of Greyhawk, and in fact they have much more of an overall impact on the world that those who use even powerful magic.
3. While published Greyhawk material almost completely focuses on the Flanaess, which is the eastern half of two conjoined continents, this is not the extent of the campaign world by a long shot. A full global map of Oerth and its continents/lands was included in the original Folio booklets, and the areas covered by it and even later products do not touch on the vast majority of the lands that cover the surface of Oerth. Other than the Flanaess, these outlands are completely up for grabs. Two efforts(and poor ones at that) sought to expand into these land- one being just a map with rather uninventive names for the outlands on it; the other being a pigeon-holed batch of material aimed more at making a miniature combat game with blatantly different factions rather than with the aim of creating sensible additions to a campaign world and then populating it with factions that made sense. Surely somebody can do a better job of it. That somebody could be you, me, or whoever.
Heck, I’m outta gas. Somebody else do the last two.
And yes, I chucked the short and succinct bit right out the window Saracenus. Just see the bold print for the bulltet points. Consider the rest "descriptive discussion" of said points. _________________ ---Cebrion
Joined: Feb 28, 2008 Posts: 127 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:56 am Post subject:
I have to diagree with the statement that Greyhawk is in the "Sword and Sorcery" genre.
Magic is a major and active force in the world. It is true that there are not many mages at higher levels, but I equate that to the fact that gaining levels at a fast pace is only possible if the PC is an adventurer, and being an adventurer is very dangerous for mages; many do not survive. This is why though most communities have arcane spellcasters of a low or mid level, these persons spend their entire lives getting this far due to the smaller chance for experience progression that a "domesticated" life brings.
As for the fact that many rich NPCs have permanent scars or other afflictions, we always had a house rule in our campaigns which stated that if you died, even if broght back to life there would be some kind of a permanent scar or such; the DM left this to the player to devise and it actually worked out well. This was an extension of the 1e constitution loss for being resurrected/raised. Also remember that in 1e there was a chance that one could not be resurrected based upon constitution; The higher your constitution the better chance of being brought back to life. It may be that clerical healing can cure minor (non deadly) wounds to 100%, but anything more traumatic causes a definite permanent change to one's body.
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1839 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject:
You are thinking too much in game terms. The reason there are so few powerful mages is not because a mage living in a village has fewer chances to gain xp, but because the mage remains in that village in the first place. The reason this mage and most others are not high level badasses is that most people are not crazy enough(ie. adventurers) to purposely seek out and fight stuff that may kill them. They have plenty of things to do in their normal lives, like raise food, run a home, etc. Let's face it, wealthy mages don't have to worry about those things but your average rural hedge mage does.
And magic does not permeate Greyhawk such that it is everywhere, and a such factor of everyone's daily lives such that people are non-chalant about it. You don't see people walking down the street using cantrips for fun, or using them to clean their homes or mend damaged goods. While there is magic in the world, it is certainly not that omnipresent. Everyone is not an adventurer; everyone doesn't even have a level of experience. You would be lucky to find even 1 in 100 people who know how to use any magic. Over time, Greyhawk has become more of a high magic campaign, as people forget what it was supposed to be about, which is exactly the points I outlined: "It also means that really powerful magic originates from either ancient civilizations, god-like beings, or a very few, very powerful individuals."
But you do have a point. Maybe I should say Greyhawk had a Sword & Sorcery level of magic, or at least it did until other authors came along and added floating cities and an entire island chain encompassing hundreds(maybe thousands) of square miles of territory surrounded by magical mists(among other things). As you can imagine, I either downplay or outright ignore this added content as the authors seem to have had no clue as to what they were doing to the concept of magic in Greyhawk while they were creating their material. _________________ ---Cebrion
Joined: May 27, 2003 Posts: 27 Location: Spindrift Isles, Scotland
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject:
Galencudin wrote:
Quote:
Add in the fact that they can interact with legends like Mordenkainen, Tenser, Robilar, et al [...]
Yes they can but it is not necessary, unlike FR setting if playing on an Epic scale. Nonetheless if players want to shape the Oerth as you put it ( either in Good or Evil), they will likely interact with them, even if vicariously.
But since it NOT a necessary element, players can still have fun playing in GreyHawk without legendary figures, why should they be in the wrong game ?
The emphasis in my original post was on "can". Of course it isn't necessary, and perhaps it does not apply to everyone, but those names/personages have enjoyed the greatest renown in D&D for over 30 years now, and to many people that is a huge draw. Gamers can of course still enjoy GreyHawk without acknowledging it's background and characters, but - imho - they are missing embracing arguably the richest D&D gaming history if they do so.
Joined: Feb 28, 2008 Posts: 127 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:48 am Post subject:
I do have to say Cebrion that although I do not think of Greyhawk as "Sword and Sorcery" I agree that magic is not and should not be on every street corner. The reason for magic getting out of hand in what has been written and published is due to the emergence of Monty Hall campaigns in the 1980s.
I like 3/3.5e except that magic items are too plentiful. I do not agree with the purchasing of magic items as a standard practice. It is ok on rare occassions to allow the purchase of something here or there (better yet tie a quest to the purchase price). I believe in one of Gygax's writings (maybe original DMG?) he made mention that characters should not be decorated like Christmas trees with magic items. The idea that PCs should have x amount in magic and treasure dependent upon character level removes the DM responsibility of maintaining campaign balance.
I also do not think it can be contested that although magic is powerful in "present day" Greyhawk, it is only a shadow of its former power (The Invoked Devastation and Rain of Colorless Fire amongst other people, places and events, all well in the past provide conclusive evidence of this).
My view of Sword and Sorcery is one of Conan and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser and other stories on this level. With regard to magic levels in these books I believe Greyhawk to have more magical influence.
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1839 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject:
The Fafhrd and the Gary Mouser stories are a very good example of Greyhawk's magic level, while the Conan stories are not quite right. Lanhkmar is pretty much the model for Greyhawk, but the Blue Box really put a damper on this with its Candyland maps(the maps are very prettily and nicely drawn, but they do not reflect the urban sprawl that Greyhawk City is) and its emphasis on the presence of so many good things(temples & NPCs), and not enough emphasis on the fact that Greyhawk is a city ruled by cutthroat thieves and others of the neutral and evil alignments. I know more than a few people who pretty much tossed out most of the Blue Box material, and replaced in with the appropriate City of Lanhkmar material. Add in the 3.x rules and the much heavier emphasis on the assumed presence of magic items, and the world itself is altered even more if dm's let it become that way, an most did by following the example of the material published for the game edition. But, I will say that Greyhawk does have ever so slightly more magic present than Newhon, but not by a lot. On the scale of magic, Greyhawk falls in between a Sword & Sorcery(Newhon) magic level and a High Magic level(Eberron or FR and then some), but Greyhawk leans very much more towards a Sword & Sorcery magic level. Many people’s campaigns do not emphasize this well, as the level of magic present among adventurers leaks over into the perception of what is present in everyday society(like the more bureaucratic counterparts of PCs). _________________ ---Cebrion
Joined: Nov 28, 2006 Posts: 252 Location: Barony of Trellwood, The Great Kingdom
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:14 am Post subject:
Cebrion wrote:
The Fafhrd and the Gary Mouser stories are a very good example of Greyhawk's magic level, while the Conan stories are not quite right. Lanhkmar is pretty much the model for Greyhawk.
<SNIP>Stuff on evil and gritty, that's a different conversation</SNIP>
Add in the 3.x rules and the much heavier emphasis on the assumed presence of magic items, and the world itself is altered even more if dm's let it become that way, an most did by following the example of the material published for the game edition.
But, I will say that Greyhawk does have ever so slightly more magic present than Newhon, but not by a lot. On the scale of magic, Greyhawk falls in between a Sword & Sorcery(Newhon) magic level and a High Magic level(Eberron or FR and then some), but Greyhawk leans very much more towards a Sword & Sorcery magic level. Many people’s campaigns do not emphasize this well, as the level of magic present among adventurers leaks over into the perception of what is present in everyday society(like the more bureaucratic counterparts of PCs).
Cebrion,
I believe you when you say that Greyhawk was intended as mid-level magic world. It wasn't low magic (Iron Heroes, Conan) or High Magic (FR, Eberron).
But there was a strange tension between the mundane faux-middle ages setting and the powerful magic items (and casters) that were found in the original adventures in the setting (T1, A1-4, G1-3, D1-3, the S series, etc.).
On the one hand Gary was coming from the simulation world of historical miniatures which colored his view of his world. On the other he was trying to escape the straight jacket of "history says."
So you get a game world that doesn't explain where all that magic comes from, its just there to be found or maybe you can trade for it (at a supreme disadvantage). Not a lot of thought was put into how magic would effect the world. If PCs could purchase magic it would quickly unbalance the game. It would also distort the faux-middle ages trappings of Greyhawk.
The best example of this was the highly magical drow that you encounter in G3 and later in D1-3. The only way to keep the PCs from taking their mad loot was to make the magic vulnerable when taken out of the underdark setting. This was a hand wave to how "high magic" in Greyhawk could be kept from infecting everything.
It is my contention that it wasn't 3e that suddenly changed everything over to FR style magic, that was already in the setting but constrained by play style traditions of earlier editions and some rules mechanics.
With the advent of 3e and Living Greyhawk a legion of people were exposed to Greyhawk without those traditions and rules that assumed everyone would have magic by 5th level. That combination was never reconciled in LG, we just said you were able to purchase magic between adventures but never figured out who was making the magic and who was selling it, it was all done off stage unless the maker in question was a major plot point in the adventure.
Frankly everything I have heard about 4e makes me think that it will be the first edition to really support the idea mid-level magic world you envision for Greyhawk because the PCs abilities will be more important than a magic item to chart that PC's effectiveness.
Right now I have ignored the issue of magic marts and scarcity for my 3.5 campaign because it gets in the way of my players having fun (I am teaching them the rules and encouraging them to push the edge of them as a learning exercise).
So, in conclusion I think that Greyhawk's magic level is a mess. I will probably keep hand waving it if I continue with 3e and reconceptualize it in 4e if I convert.
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1839 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:02 am Post subject:
It isn't specifically just 3e+ though that changed the presence of magic again- it just helped nudge it further in a different direction. As you point out, magic was different due to other rules mechanics in 2e and earlier. That is my point exactly. Over the changing rules editions(and all of the varied product releases for them, and not just Greyhawk releases), the assumed role of magic has changed as well. I guess we are pretty much on the same page there.
I can see why you'd open up magic for beginners though. I think that most people do that. _________________ ---Cebrion
I have to diagree with the statement that Greyhawk is in the "Sword and Sorcery" genre.
I absolutely agree. GH may have been _INFLUENCED_ by S&S, particularly Lankhmar, but as it came out of the oven it is NOT S&S as that term defines a literary genre. That is not GH's fault but D&D's fault. D&D is teeming with so much magic, so many monsters and so much treasure to be harvested by PCs that the S&S model is exploded, leaving a recognizable "blood splatter" pattern but nothing more. _________________ GVD
Bill Slavicsek mentioned those by name as what we'd see after Forgotten Realms and Eberron were out. Greyhawk is a definate, he said they were working on the books for it, and Dark Sun is one that he mentioned "we would see down the line". I don't know if he slipped up or if he wasn't 100% sure, but he sounded pretty confident.
From what we'd heard at I-CON, we knew it was coming... but now we know it's already be in the works, so there's a good chance it'll be next in line and roll out int 2010!
Oh great. 4e GH. I shall look forward to "reviewing" these products . . . energetically . . . and posting those reviews . . . everywhere. Of course, I will have need to comment on 4e at the same time. Or earlier. "How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" I guess I'm going to find out. _________________ GVD
Oh great. 4e GH. I shall look forward to "reviewing" these products . . . energetically . . . and posting those reviews . . . everywhere. Of course, I will have need to comment on 4e at the same time. Or earlier. "How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" I guess I'm going to find out.
I know that 4e GH can be a bit of contentious issue on this board, but I have to admit this news has made Akoss a very happy camper indeed...
Even if you don't use it wholesale, I'm sure they'll be things you can prune from it for your own game (stat blocks, magic items, etc.). I also noticed that Mike Mearls has just started up his own GH game so it's a fair bet he'll have some involvement in this.
Joined: Feb 28, 2008 Posts: 127 Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:35 am Post subject:
I have found this whole discussion on magic levels and the comparability between Greyhawk and Sword and Sorcery literature to have been quite useful and enlightening.
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4e Greyhawk is an oxymoron, that cannot but be moronic, given 4e's "in name only" claim to the D&D mantle. 
), and shape the world around them by their very actions...
4e GH.