Joined: Feb 26, 2004 Posts: 1733 Location: Ullinois
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:43 am Post subject:
Pretty good readin'. Alot more deaths than I expected. But I guess this is nearing the end of LG so why not? Glodreddi had it coming, I was surprised they didn't throw a party for his demise.
Joined: Feb 07, 2007 Posts: 61 Location: The Kingdom of Nyrond (LA County, CA)
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:51 am Post subject:
mortellan wrote:
Pretty good readin'. Alot more deaths than I expected. But I guess this is nearing the end of LG so why not? Glodreddi had it coming, I was surprised they didn't throw a party for his demise.
Even though Goodmonth's come and gone in my EttRoG campaign, I am SO going to have to use this... the PCs recently got commissions from ol' Nerof himself, and with his death, those may or may not go away.
Besides, the PCs will rejoice upon hearing that the "beloved" "tax collector" (replace "beloved" with "(unprintable)" and "tax collector" with "being whose rapacity would make a Roman Republican governor of any province look like the soul of honesty in comparison") has snuffed it. They'll probably want to find out where he's buried just so they can make a special side quest to pass water on his grave!
Hi all -
I had previously d/led issues 1 and 2, but with the loss of my hard drive I no longer have them.
Can you point me in the right direction?
I don't think I actually read the first two and after this, I thought it was just as funny as Order of the Stick. I surely hope that Salume Sewis is able to continue writing these - even it is for us here at CanonFire, heathens be damned.
Theocrat Issak _________________ Theocrat Issak
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 672 Location: Bronx, NY
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject:
TheocratIssak wrote:
I don't think I actually read the first two and after this, I thought it was just as funny as Order of the Stick. I surely hope that Salume Sewis is able to continue writing these - even it is for us here at CanonFire, heathens be damned.
Theocrat Issak
I am glad you liked them so much. It was a lot of fun working with Eric on them.
However, given the actions and attitudes of the website owner and moderator to a complaint about a recent feature article that challenged my authorship of an article, I would strongly recommend Eric not post anything here. The total lack of response is intolerable, above and beyond the failure to redact the article in question.
I have a 50% miss chance when it comes to listening to Sam. *rolls dice* 73%! I get to post. Woo hoo!
I'm glad you all like them. I was rather worried I was going to be run out of town on a rail because of the Grumbler. We made this broadside up to help LG players know what is happening in town because we couldn't guarantee that PCs would play all the events. Then we had to come up with a way to get people to want to read them, and so Salume was created. He sort of took on a life of his own.
I don't think the Grumbler would work in any TSR/WotC campaign except for Greyhawk. The article just wouldn't fit anywhere else. Only Greyhawk has that perfect blend of jaded, cosmopolitan, intellectual elite, historic, and subversive attitude needed to support this paper. I'm so glad they let me sneak this in.
The number of deaths in this issue were a direct result of the critical event summaries from COR8-07 Celebrations. The PCs managed to save two Oligarchs as well as Talasek Thraydin. Unfortunately, Turin is pretty good at what he does and nailed the others. P.S., there are bonus points if you can figure out Nerof Gasgal's actual final words. The witnesses were actually pretty close.
As for being put on the same level as W.O.G., that is just not possible. W.O.G. is just too good; The Grumbler doesn't compare. The Graz'zt talk show? That has me in stitches every time. I'm laughing before I even start on the dialog. Those two cultists in Sigil are hysterical. Please keep up the comics, Mortellan. I positively love them.
Joined: Feb 26, 2004 Posts: 1733 Location: Ullinois
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject:
Thanks for your praise galadhion! Your Grumbler I am sure had a wider readership than my measley comic and its humor always brings a tear to my eye. Or wait maybe that's the paper its printed on? *Sniff*
Anyhow, just because LG is done in doesn't mean Greyhawk creativity is finished. We would all be happy to read more of your creations (not just the Grumbler) here at CF or in the very least discuss GH in the forums. Don't be a stranger. By the by, what comes for you after LG?
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 494 Location: Yellowstone area, MT, USA
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject:
galadhion wrote:
I'm glad you all like them. I was rather worried I was going to be run out of town on a rail because of the Grumbler.
Although I honestly don't use the material in the Grumblers (they're sometimes anachronistic, with modern concepts I don't envision in the medieval/renaissance setting of the city, for my taste, and events in the city in my home game make a lot of the material irrelevant), I salute the effort. Always nice to see some scraps of GH support from WotC. _________________ Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
I found the news that Turin Deathstalker turned on his old comrades to be rather out of character, as well as his methodology.
Turin served on the Directing Oligarchy for 10 years, and was firmly in Gasgal's faction, per the CoG boxed set. Presumably, Nerof and Turin were friends.
He killed the mayor during a celebration? The guy who captured Lassiviren the Dark?
Turin understands political realities. If he was so upset about the Oligarchs signing a treaty with Turrosh Mak, why did he tolerate Pyremiel Alaxane's presence in Greyhawk after the Wars?
What difference will it make? Nerof was Greyhawk's second-most popular mayor of all time, and now his chances of becoming a martyr are pretty good. And never mind the fact that Org Nenshen is still alive & on the warpath.
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 135 Location: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject:
Of course... when you are as rich and powerful as Nerof, and have friends as rich and powerful as he does... how long do you stay dead? ;-)
And where are you going to hide as you plan your revenge and your return?
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Olympia, WA
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:07 am Post subject:
I hope Turin took care of his clones. Everybody who is anybody in Greyhawk City has a clone stashed away somewhere. _________________ <strong>
</strong>
These questions are all addressed in the Living Greyhawk adventure series Honor Among Thieves. We had some of our best Greyhawk minds working on these adventures, and I'm not counting me in that number. I believe they square with canon and are entertaining adventures as well. We gave the players many opportunities to influence the direction of the series with their choices. If you disagree with the direction they took, then just disregard them. That's one of the great things about Greyhawk. You can take it in a lot of different directions.
These questions are all addressed in the Living Greyhawk adventure series Honor Among Thieves. We had some of our best Greyhawk minds working on these adventures, and I'm not counting me in that number. I believe they square with canon and are entertaining adventures as well.
They're not all answered, and those that are answered are not done so very convincingly.
To start off, Turin throws 20+ years of friendship away because he disagrees with the mayor's decision to make peace with Turrosh Mak? Sure, he's angry, but angry enough to kill Nerof for it? Turin had a number of viable alternatives. Among them:
1) Accept the treaty, & wait for the humanoids to break it (which several united savage tribes would be likely to do).
2) Reject the treaty and make overtures to ally Safeton with other political powers in the region, such as Rary, Hardby, or even Dyvers.
3) Assassinate Turosh Mak instead of the Mayor.
Even if he still would decide to kill Nerof, why leave his fingerprints all over it? Killing Nerof is public is stupid--Turin has one of the most effective spy networks in the Domain (perhaps even the Flanaess), & has been in Nerof's palace numerous times (it's where Directing Oligarchy meetings are held, after all). Hell, he could have even made it look like agents of Turrosh Mak did it.
As for having some of LG "best Greyhawk minds" working on the series, the only names I recognize are the reviewers, not the actual authors (save Menge, whose name I only recognize for his work on the Greyhawk Grumbler). These authors virtually ignore Org Nenshen, arguably the most dangerous and powerful of the mayor's inner circle. On top of that, Nerof's stats have taken a severe downgrade--he's now listed as a Rog1/Exp 5. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has Nerof as a Rog 12 as of 591 CY. It seems that one of the "best greyhawk minds" missed the fact that Nerof is also Assistant Guildmaster of Thieves, and had a long adventuring career prior to becoming Lord Mayor (see the info on Xerien Albhart in FFF & tAB), so it's hard to believe he's only 6th level.
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1839 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject:
I'll have to agree with Rob.
One, the slaying of Nerof and the other Oligarchs doesn’t suit Turin's overall goals. Disrupting Greyhawk rule will in fact *encourage* the Pomarj to take advantages.
Two, Turin can use a peace treaty to gather further allies/aid(i.e. it's an opportunity), and as Rob said, the humanoids are going to break the treaty- it's in their nature to do so, and if they don't do it soon enough for Turin's tastes, Turin can surely stage something...
Three, for the love of Pholtus, could the "big event" be something other than "kill the leaders"? Does Living Greyhwak have a chain slay leader spell out of control or something? For the love of all that is holy, enough of the broken record already! Need to reboot those best Greyhawk minds methinks.
Four, didn't this happen not all too long ago to that little known group called the Circle of Eight, such that the leaders of Greyhawk City might be a bit more concerned about security? It’s not like the local leaders have powerful mages and clerics to draw upon for certain protections.
So, not exactly the way to go out with celebratory bang in my opinion.
Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:30 am; edited 3 times in total
Thank you for your opinions. While I appreciate the rampant use of quotation marks to denote tone, I am going to have to differ regarding Turin. Turin's relationship with Nerof seemed to us (the LG core review team for this arc: Creighton Broadhurst, Paul Looby, Sam Weiss, and me) to be more professional in nature and not a friendship. Turin is a sociopath who hates orcs. He construed Nerof making a deal with them as betrayal. The public death was Turin making a statement. Org is about, but even he was unable to stop the Deathstalker. Org did force Turin to flee town afterward.
As for a chain slay leader spell, yes, in fact, LG does have that spell. Sometimes it is necessary to show turn over and to shake things up. It allows the campaign to grow and gave the players in the LG campaign the ability to shape the future. And shaping the future is the true big event of Honor Among Thieves. The earlier events are just leading up to final adventure Foundations.
Anyway, everyone is welcome to their interpretation of Greyhawk. If you find the plot line in Honor Among Thieves not to your liking, then simply ignore it and build a version of Greyhawk that pleases you.
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 672 Location: Bronx, NY
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject:
Because a lot of this was my madness, I will back up Eric and explain things a bit more thoroughly.
Why would Turin throw away 20+ years of friendship?
Well, first of all, it was 20+ years of a political alliance, not particularly a friendship. Turin was Guildmaster of Assassins, Nerof was Lord Mayor, they both shared common goals.
Second, that friendship, or political alliance if you will, was thrown away by Nerof when he tried to make a deal with Turrosh Mak.
Third, Turin also has a severe psychological problem when it comes to humanoids. That hatred is going to overwhelm just about every other consideration.
What about other options?
Rary uses norkers as troops. Why would Turin ally with someone who uses the humanoids he hates so much as troops?
Hardby is alied to Rary. That creates the same problem as allying with Rary directly.
Waiting might work, but why wait? A critical element in the plot is that there is a very strong pro-war faction within the city. One of the leaders of that faction was recently, in the first adventure in the series, removed from the Oligarchy by Nerof. If Turin "removes" Nerof while he may be causing more than a bit of upheavel in Greyhawk, he is also very much setting that faction up to take control. Killing Nerof is close to a coup by proxy for Turin.
Finally, if Turin could find and assassinate Turrosh Mak, he would have done that ten years ago in the history of the setting. Obviously Turrosh Mak is a bit better at hiding than Nerof.
Why do it publicly?
Because he is trying to make a statement. You do not make such a statement quietly. Turin wants open war to the death with the Pomarj, he does not want half measures. He sat around waiting for the opportunity, and Turrosh Mak provided it by invading a few years back. A peace now wastes the opportunity.
What about Org Nenshen?
What about him? Yes, he is a quite dangerous member of Nerof's inner circle. But what exactly can he do? He is a thief, not an assassin. He could do a great job of slaughtering a sizable portion of Turin's network. Of course one portion of that network is his very good friend Nerof's illegitmate daughter. Perhaps he would like to reconsider that when such a valuable hostage is so easily available. Or perhaps he can rob Turin blind. Not that it would have much of an effect, but he could certainly do it. And let us also remember that Org is aging, and not too gracefully. Indeed that is one of his key plot hooks, that he is taking bigger and bigger chances to prove he still has it. That is why he decides to go after Turin to avenge his friend.
Why is Nerof such a wimp?
That appears to be a typo. He was supposed to be a rogue 10/expert 5. Why the shift? Because there was no NPC class in 2nd ed when his previous stats were released. Also key is that he has been Lord Mayor for over 20 years. He would gain expert levels doing that, not rogue levels. His rogue skills were also decaying because of acrophobia.
What about the authors?
All of the authors are quite well known in LG, and one is very well known beyond it. If you have not seen their names before you just have not been looking in the right places.
What about Turrosh Mak taking advantage?
I am sure he would. If of course he did not have a major invasion from the Principality of Ulek to deal with. While not made an element of the core series, that was very much deliberately coordinated with the Principality of Ulek people, and forms a key bit of the background planning that went into setting the situation up. Turrosh Mak is the one who needs peace with Greyhawk to avoid a two front war. To steal the comparison, doing otherwise would be like suggesting Poland take advantage of the Red Army purges while Germany was invading. Not a good plan.
What about allies?
Actually, that was Nerof's plan. That is why he wanted the peace. He wanted to stabilize the border with Hardby, fend off the Duchy of Urnst, and deal with Dyvers. Those were all events in the LG timeline that contributed to developing the plot, with two of them being based on the preferences of people other than those who developed this plot arc.
Why the chain slay leader spell?
Because we have imaginations. Really good ones in fact. But we were not supposed to use them to creatively reinterpret existing NPCs. If we wanted to do some serious development we had to get rid of those NPCs and bring new ones into leadership positions. That is why most everyone went around slaughtering the rulers of their countries.
And as it happens, this plays into the same reasons why the Circle of Eight got trashed in FtA. Nothing drives a plot forward better than a nice housecleaning of NPCs. It was time for a change, and the Oligarchy had to pay the price in blood.
What about increased security?
What about it? Turin is the biggest badass of the Flanaess. He is the Samuel L. Jackson of assassins. Security? Sure, great.
I would also add in that a very specific choice was made by the players of the campaign. They could have chosen to go and save Nerof. Instead they went and saved a paladin and cleric of Cuthbert known for their charity work. While there was a very definite intended plot, the players made several very important choices at each point, and the biggest one came at the end of the adventure.
So as Eric said, it may not all be to anyone's particular liking. The various plot elements were very carefully considered, and they all fit together quite well, and are strongly based on both the established backgrounds of the NPCs as well as additional events of the campaign to this point. Likewise the authors of each individual event delivered stories to work with the overall plot and the developments above and beyond any expectation of mine when Creighton first started letting me develop the storyline. Even if the particular plot is not to your liking their efforts should not be casually dismissed.
Joined: Feb 16, 2003 Posts: 1839 Location: So. Cal
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject:
I don't dismiss the writers’ efforts at all. I haven't read the adventures in these events yet, and hopefully once all is said and done, a database for most of the LG adventures can be assembled for posterity.
However, I do dismiss the "kill the leaders" plot line. It got really old, really fast during the course of the LG campaign. You of course all knew that, but even with that all in mind, you still went with the "kill all the leaders" angle yet again. I just have to shake my head at the reasoning behind that.
I wouldn't call Turin and Nerof friends either. I don't think Turin has that many friends anyways, and can count the ones he does have on one hand(and that hand is probably missing a few fingers). They were political allies to be sure, but Turin wasn't all that engrossed in politics anyways- a reason why his taking over the Safeton forces to begin with really is very odd. I see Turin as all business, all the time, and as a very pragmatic individual. Killing the Oligarchs was not a pragmatic solution to the problem at hand, seeing as a treaty could have much more easily been made to work to his benefit.
I'll just have to beat Sam to death with a whiffle ball bat(because it will take longer!) when I see him.
Joined: Feb 26, 2004 Posts: 1733 Location: Ullinois
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject:
I'm not sure if this was already covered but, oligarchs by definition are usually only in government because its good for their business interests. It was this clique that Turin turned away from to go kill orcs instead. So Turin even at a friendly professional level committed political suicide by leaving thus killing any influence he had in the Oligarchy (unless Vesper is still loyal to Turin). So I can believe Turin would go to extreme measures because he doesn't have the ear of the rulers anymore (Is Vesper beholden to him anymore?).
Good discussion. GH City politics and intrigue is the best! My main question is, with this setup what do the PCs do exactly? Hunt Turin and bring him to justice? Redeem him? What?
Joined: Aug 17, 2004 Posts: 778 Location: Computer Desk
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:29 am Post subject:
I am not attacking the writers ability and am willing to see where this ends but I have too agree with Cebrion on a point. Enough with the leadership slaughter; I realize their are those that want radical change for GH but killing off the every ruler simply for a change is counter productive. Even more imaginative would have been to create an advisor that have complex motives over then the twirl the moustache type to promote changes of policy without gutting the ruling heads wholesale.
Simply too put your own NPC in place does show a lack of imagination especially after its been done to death (pun intended). I believe it takes more imagination to build plausible rationales to explain motives and events within GH then simply to up end the table. I truly hope this does make sense but as of now I don't see the rationale for it.
Turin Deathstalker
Sociopath - Humanoid Pathology
Cool Methodical
Wants War - Supports GH pro war faction
How does publicly martyring the popular Lord Mayor of the pro peace faction accomplish this?
It just turns the populace against the pro war faction and brands himself as a traitorous madman. - Be sure the pro war oligarchs aren't going to be endorsing war now. Lets do what the crazed assassin wants - what do you suggest I was behind the murder of our beloved lord mayor. Remember all martyrs become paragons of virtue before they hit the floor. I can even see the peace faction proposing a treaty in his name; after all he died for his noble vision of peaceful coexistence are we to let the warmongers kill his dream as well.
Turin has spent his entire career maintaining an alternate identity and denying his profession publicly. Even if its an "open secret" he retained plausible deniability so he publicly kills several oligarchs at a celebration. Turin can't even return to the border and resources should be spent tracking him by his actions he has weakened the border.
Joined: Jun 29, 2001 Posts: 672 Location: Bronx, NY
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:37 am Post subject:
Crag wrote:
I am not attacking the writers ability and am willing to see where this ends but I have too agree with Cebrion on a point. Enough with the leadership slaughter; I realize their are those that want radical change for GH but killing off the every ruler simply for a change is counter productive. Even more imaginative would have been to create an advisor that have complex motives over then the twirl the moustache type to promote changes of policy without gutting the ruling heads wholesale.
Simply too put your own NPC in place does show a lack of imagination especially after its been done to death (pun intended). I believe it takes more imagination to build plausible rationales to explain motives and events within GH then simply to up end the table. I truly hope this does make sense but as of now I don't see the rationale for it.
And simply to put your own preferences for how to manage plot development while under certain restrictions as the overriding factor, and to use that to insult people shows a total lack of respect.
Since the preference is to be rude rather than to discuss, you can feel free to be rude amongst yourselves.
The number of dead Oligarchs was due to events in Celebrations. The PCs had the opportunity to stop many of the assassinations. We took the critical event summaries from the premier to determine which Oligarchs survived and which didn't. The PCs were successful for the most part, but more tables choose to rescue Talasek than to aid Nerof. Without the wild card of the PCs there, Turin was able to counter the protections of the Lord Mayor and get through. In the end, Turin only killed two Oligarchs.
The two dwarven Oligarchs were not killed by Turin, but by someone taking advantage of the situation to indulge his personal proclivities. The death of Torrentz Hebvard was not intended by Turin but an unfortunate accident. We left open whether or not Gerda died. Personally, I think she survived and is somewhere sitting on a beach drinking icy cool beverages with bags of money stacked up around her.
Celebrations were designed to set up Foundations, where the PCs play a huge role in the future of the city of Greyhawk. In that adventure, the PCs meet the indirect author of recent events in the city and they play a prominent role in his final scheme to reshape Greyhawk.
Joined: Feb 26, 2004 Posts: 1733 Location: Ullinois
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject:
Ah thanks for the hopefully not too spoilerific elaboration, galadhion. I knew the players had to fit in there somehow, but its easy to get too wrapped up in what the NPCs are doing/saying. So the players chose Talasek over Nerof, very interesting. I don't even know how to respond to that. And I did gather on a second reading of the Grumbler3 that Turin was at best only responsible for Turin's death. I can't wait to see who is behind the rest of this plot.
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