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Mapping Beyond the Flanaess
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:10 am    Post subject: Mapping Beyond the Flanaess Reply with quote

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that the next in my series of Darlene-style maps of the lands outside the Flanaess has just been posted on my blog:

http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/beyond-flanaess-zindia-and-golden.html

This map covers western Zindia, southeastern Suhfang (Shufeng), and so forth. I've also made some updates to the first map, which is also included in the link above.

Enjoy!

Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com


Last edited by GreyhawkGrognard on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always, this looks really good. It's a really beautiful map.

And as always, the juxtaposition of random cultures in random places makes me feel like my head is going to explode. Not your fault entirely, but it looks like someone tore up a map of Asia, threw the fragments in the air, and decided wherever they landed was good enough. Cut-up techniques are great if your name is William Burroughs, but less so if you're trying to build a coherent fantasy world.
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't bother me in the least. After all, as you say, it's a fantasy world.

But, for the sake of argument, let's explore your statement as it applies to this particular map. I'll use my own non-canon term Woguo for the Japan-analogue nation; fill in whatever other non- or semi-canonical name you feel works for your game (Nippon, Ryuujin, etc.).

In the real world, India is proximate to China, with an intervening mountain range. In Oerik, Zindia is proximate to Suhfang, with an intervening mountain range.

In the real world, Japan and India are separated by the Pacific and Indian Oceans, a journey of some 3,000 or so nautical miles. In Oerik, Woguo and Zindia are separated by the Sea of Woguo, a journey of some 1,000 miles. Granted, it's a shorter journey, but not one which is inconceivably so.

In the real world, Japan undertook a military adventure which involved the occupation of a large swath of the Asian mainland, including parts of China, Singapore, Korea, and Manchuria. In Oerik, Woguo has occupied a large swath of the Oerikian mainland, including several lands which are part of the Sufang Imperium historically and culturally, as well as other, related but not identical lands.

In the real world, Chinese culture expanded across broad deserts and high mountains, influencing (if not outright conquering) societies on its borders. In Oerik, Suhfang culture has expanded across broad deserts and high mountains, influencing (if not outright conquering) societies on its borders. Including the range of mountains that run down the peninsula that forms the Woguo Dominion (which is conveniently pierced by marked mountain passes, I might add).

In the real world, Japan was culturally influenced by the proximity of China. In Oerik, Woguo can be said to be influenced by the proximity of those Suhfangese lands south and west of the Sea of Woguo. A lack of Zindian influence can be explained in any number of ways, especially postulating a relatively isolationist Woguo prior to its current expansionist phase, the lack of a centralized Zindian imperial government to press for relations, etc.

Where you are offended by the lack of realism given the spread of cultures, I might argue (playing Asmodeus' Advocate) just the opposite, that what you see is TOO similar to the real world. Just like many (myself included) don't like the use of the term "Nippon" because it's just too close to reality.

The only real juxtaposition so far is moving Japan somewhat closer to India, and any number of reasons could be given to account for a relative lack of Zindian influence in Woguoan culture. Or you could inject some influence. Make their religion more based on Hinduism than Taoism. The possibilities are endless. As stated, it's a fantasy world, and we're dealing with areas that are, at best, names on a map.
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Crag
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thulcondar; did you receive my pm Question

I really would like to discuss the map and ensure the various manuscript match. Several of us, including myself, have worked hard on the celestial imperium and the cartographical landscape has been altered significantly.

I would really like to send you my paint version, albeit rough though it is.

Plz email me....
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Crag; no I haven't received any PM from you.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a fantasy world, and even if it isn't one I personally like, it's still a great map.

Crag: I like the idea of having several alternate maps, so that we can choose which ones we like best. I don't see any reason why your version of the region needs to be the same as Thulcondar's.

Thulcondar: I apologize. You didn't invite anyone to turn your thread into a debate, and I should've kept my arguments to my own thread. Or just made my own damn map.
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smillan_31
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two more beautiful maps. This is really great work, Joe! Well done!

EDIT: The title of your post on the blog about the John Carter movie -- brilliant, sir!
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smillan_31 wrote:
The title of your post on the blog about the John Carter movie -- brilliant, sir!


Heh, thanks.

And, of course, thanks for the kind words about the maps.
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SirXaris
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll tell you the one thing I like most about your maps, Thulcondar - it's the inclusion of more forests and grasslands than the other mpas I've seen put in those regions and fewer deserts. Happy Nice.

SirXaris
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Nellisir
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only got a moment, but I like this map far, far more than any other treatment I've seen of the western Flanaess. I like it because it doesn't quote real-life as its primary text, I like it because it doesn't match someone else's imagination, and I like it because it looks like fun.
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Nellisir
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
And as always, the juxtaposition of random cultures in random places makes me feel like my head is going to explode. Not your fault entirely, but it looks like someone tore up a map of Asia, threw the fragments in the air, and decided wherever they landed was good enough.


So head-exploding is good? Because I think that's a brilliant idea, and I want to try it. Happy
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for the kind words, Nellisir!
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nellisir wrote:
Because I think that's a brilliant idea, and I want to try it. Happy


Admittedly that might be awesome, if you spent some time considering how those cultures might interact in new and interesting ways, instead of spending time rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all. That's the part that drives me crazy here.

I would adore a setting that seriously considered the isles as an intersection of Zindian, Olman, and Japanese cultures (and will probably write one up, eventually). When regions are allowed to blend with their neighbors, they feel like a living and breathing part of a world.

I have very strong feelings about world-building. It's not that I want events on Oerth to unfurl exactly in the way they did on Earth; it's that I want them to unfurl differently, especially in places where the geography and mix of cultures is very different. On a map that looks like a scrambled version of Asia, I want the cultures to be permitted to run together. Or I'd prefer that Asia wasn't quoted so heavily at all.

The only problem I have with these particular maps are the names. If they were more like the pure fantasy names we see in the Flanaess I wouldn't have an issue. I love many aspects of this map - the terrain, as Sir Xaris said, and the thought put into it. Where I dislike this map it's because it comes far too close to quoting real-life as its primary text. It's antithetical in that respect to the Flanaess, which allows itself to not be Earth. Yes, it's perfectly possible to imagine a version of this archipelago that's unlike Japan in every respect except for the very Japanese names, but the very Japanese names are a sticking point for me. No part of the Flanaess owes so much to a single real-world culture.

Your mileage, as always, may vary.

And yes, I promised I'd stay out of this thread. People should really stop summoning me just when I'm trying to get to sleep and at my most vulnerable to temptation. I'm sure I'll regret this in the morning.
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
instead of spending time rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all. That's the part that drives me crazy here.


If you'd take the time to read my latest blog post, inspired in part by your... shall we say... negative response to my maps, you would know that "rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all" isn't by any stretch of the imagination the point. But...

Quote:
And yes, I promised I'd stay out of this thread. People should really stop summoning me just when I'm trying to get to sleep and at my most vulnerable to temptation. I'm sure I'll regret this in the morning.


Indeed.

Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thulcondar wrote:

If you'd take the time to read my latest blog post


Feel free to use this thread to tell us when you update your blog with more thoughts on this issue. I admit that you're not a daily read for me, though it isn't because your blog isn't entertaining. I just haven't formed the habit yet. If you keep me posted on this forum, that may well change.
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your most kind permission as to what I may post in this thread. It's definitely appreciated.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was more of a suggestion, actually. It'd make it easier for me to keep up.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thulcondar wrote:

If you'd take the time to read my latest blog post, inspired in part by your... shall we say... negative response to my maps, you would know that "rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all" isn't by any stretch of the imagination the point. But...


Having finally gotten around to reading your blog post, I see there are still some misunderstandings. I am emphatically not "ripping into" your maps because they're based on the Dragon Annual #1 map.

I don't at all dislike Skip Williams' work on the region; I think putting the "Japanese" region in such an unlikely place is an exciting opportunity to develop a culture completely unlike any that could have formed on Earth.

My only complaint is the names you chose, which are (except for "Sea of the Dragon King" and the Gygaxian names of the Zindian nations) yours and yours alone.

There's no particular canonical reason to give the isles of "Wuguo" Japanese-style names, let alone the lands they've only recently conquered according to Dragon Annual #1. Yes, "Nippon" is a Japanese name, but Skip Williams' article is pretty clear that it isn't the land's true name. There are plenty of alternatives - the islands could have a mix of different cultural inspirations (including Japan!), or they could have names that come purely from fantasy. Neither did canon dictate that the other side of the peninsula should have Chinese-style names. It doesn't even require Zindia to be purely Indian in inspiration.

I'm sorry you felt I was "ripping into" your maps, in any case. I tried to balance my whiny opinions with well-earned praise for your painstaking efforts. Your maps turned out really well - they look really good, and they're very useful resources. My response wasn't at all purely negative. My opinions aside, I don't even want you to change them; they're great as they are, and perfect for someone who wants the mix of cultures you do.

But with as much work as you clearly put into these maps, I'd think you'd want credit for them. Skip Williams didn't research and choose those names - you did.

I hope this clears up any confusion.
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I renamed the thread; I figured it would make more sense to have one big thread for all my map announcements, rather than 17 individual ones.

For lo! and behold, I've come out with the next map in the series. It covers eastern Suhfang, eastern Orcreich, and the Gulf of Ghayar region.

http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/mapping-beyond-flanaess-eastern-suhfang.html

Enjoy!

Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Gray Peaks" have a canonical name, incidentally: the Tyurzi Mountains (Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff, page 4).

The map looks great, though, as always.
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, that's an obscure, but great, piece of info. I'll rename the range with the next iteration. Thank goodness. Grey Peaks wasn't a particularly good name.

Thanks!

Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another day, another Darlene-style map of the West. It's a somewhat easier one, since it's got a lot of blank space in the High and Low Khanates, but I never thought I'd do it in one day. I give you the Low Khanate and central Suhfang (I also touched up the previous map, and they are shown side-by-side on the blog):

http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/mapping-beyond-flanaess-low-khanate-and.html

Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks great, though I must say that the term "Orcrecih" always has me thinking of the orc which says, "Frühstück in Isengard!" from Ralph Bakshi's "The Lord of the Rings" animated feature. Laughing

I can afford to be somewhat forgiving though, seeing how nice these are turning out. Keep up the good work! Cool
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GreyhawkGrognard
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a bit of housekeeping; my username is now GreyhawkGrognard, rather than Thulcondar. Yay!

Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
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Jeminnab
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: who owns/runs the valley on the northern coastal border between the orc lands and the khanates? It looks like there's a capital noted there.
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